Ground the Q400

[GearUpJammer]

Just for clarification, AE brought the ATR's back North. The factors in the Roselawn accident are well documented. As a side note, Command Airways of Poughkeepsee,NY was the launch customer of the ATR in the US. Command and Nashville Eagle merged to form Flagship Airlines/AE. Flagship had a very good safety record flying the ATR in the Northeast.

 

[say again]

Flyprdu is an IDIOT!!!!! I think you're the one that should be grounded, seriously.

 

[CALRepublic]

Ground the Q-400.....This thread is pissing me off so much I don't even want to read anymore... Thread starter, what airplane do you fly?? that bird ever been involved in an accident?? how about we ground that one as well........

Hey flyprd, what's your background and experience??? what do you fly and for how long?? if you think you're going to impress me because you went to purdue you're out of your f****ng mind........

 

[atrdriver]

Just so I get my facts straight, I should've said ATR 72. What did COEX have, 3 of them?
Atlantic Southeast Airlines, operated ATR-72 aircraft in areas where icing conditions were not common."

or

"After a period of mandatory grounding, American Eagle and Delta Connection permanently stopped using the plane on temperate routes."

What else would you like Alice?

For you to get your facts straight. After the boots were redesigned (extended back) there was nothing wrong with the ATR, and in fact it became the most tested airframe in icing conditions in FAA history. ASA operated them out of CVG for 2 winters, and I wouldn't say that isn't an area prone to icing, nor would I call it a temperate area.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Sometimes....."Freedom Of Speech" is over rated....

 

[Metrojet]

Regardless of the aircraft you fly, here's a free course from NASA about icing. It might be a good idea for all of us to take it.

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses_inflight.html#

Erlanger:

Thank you for that link - it looks very good - and everyone can learn from it - no matter what you fly.

Metrojet

 

[Publishers]

First, we do not even know if the boots and systems worked correctly.
Secondly, somewhere in reporting it mentioned that the crew was noticing this at 11,000 feet. We do not know whether they discussed any actions at this time.
Thirdly, how many times is it the aircraft? Not many.
This is sad but early judgment does not help.

 

[Paladin]

Just so I get my facts straight, I should've said ATR 72. What did COEX have, 3 of them?

How's this,
"In the years following this accident, AMR Corporation stopped using its American Eagle ATRs out of its northern hubs and moved them to their southern and Caribbean hubs in Dallas, Texas; Miami, Florida and San Juan, Puerto Rico to alleviate potential icing problems in the future. Other U.S. former ATR operators, particularly the SkyWest, Inc. subsidiary and Delta Connection operator Atlantic Southeast Airlines, operated ATR-72 aircraft in areas where icing conditions were not common."

or

"After a period of mandatory grounding, American Eagle and Delta Connection permanently stopped using the plane on temperate routes."

What else would you like Alice?

Still incorrect buddy...ASA operated the ATR-72 out of CVG to places like CAK and LEX not so many years ago. Ice isn't common in Akron?? Sure was when I lived there. You stated that the ATR was "KICKED OUT" up north. There is a big difference between being BANNED (i.e Kicked out) and VOLUNTARILY MOVED...albeit temporarily.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

You two are like two bickering kids in the back seat. Give it a rest.

 

[NEDude]

And Airbusses...their composite tails snap off in light wake turbulence.

Refering to American flight 587.

The tail did not snap off of "light wake turbulence" The tail snapped off after the F/O, complying with American Airlines flawed training program, agressively used full scale deflections of the rudder to counter the wake turbulence encounter. Aircraft are not required to, nor are they designed to be able to withstand full scale rudder deflections at all speeds.

There has been long debate about whether Airbus or American is to blame here, but four years before the accident, the FAA, Boeing, McDonnell Douglas and Airbus sent a letter to American Airlines warning them that rudders should not be used abruptly to right a jet aircraft.

Additionally in 1997 after and incident with AA flight 903 in Miami, Airbus warned American that abrupt use of the rudder could lead to loss of aircraft control and aircraft damage.

The fact is that Airbus met the design criteria for an aircraft being certified, And American Airlines was warned multiple times by not only Airbus, but the FAA and other manufacturers that their training program was flawed. And if the FO did not apply rapid, full scale rudder deflections, in accordance with the flawed training program, there would have been no crash.

 

[G-force]

Low & Slow !!!!!

]If what people are saying is true, then this airplane is unsafe and needs to be grounded immediately.[/quote

]

Hey dude,isn't this a bit of a drastic action that you are in favor of???This aircraft,(Dash-8Q400). had a good record up until now!!
Perhaps the problem lies with TRAINING & PROCEDURES???

Any pilot that KNOWS anything knows that you cannot get LOW & SLOW when on an instrument approach in icing conditions!!

 

[ReverseSensing]

One of my good friends actually works at Colgan and has relayed the fact that Asymmetrical flap extension has been listed as a probable cause of the accident.

I've flown the Q400 for 2 years now in some pretty heavy ice. It always seemed like it carried ice very well and I was never particularly concerned about its manners or handling in icing conditions. In the first minutes after I heard about this accident, when the speculation started that it might have been caused by icing in general, and a tail plane stall in particular, I thought, "no way."

This accident and the insinuations that the NTSB is spreading, I'll admit, have shaken my confidence a bit. If the departure from controlled flight happened as flaps were selected to 15 (versus 35) as the NTSB has said, I'm even more baffled. 5 to 15 just isn't that big a pitch change in the 400 and happens pretty slowly. 15 to 35 happens very rapidly and is accompanied by massive pitch changes, especially if done right at or below the flaps 35 Vfe.

The flap system, on the other hand, is pretty finicky and I could see (having just reviewed the system) how an electronic malfunction of the flap control unit might allow an uncorrectable asymmetry condition. Problem is that on the Q400, once you get a flap power or a flap drive caution, you often can't move the flaps from the position they are in when the caution occurs.

Rest in peace, crew and pax of Colgan 3407. May your families, friends, and coworkers find some solace in this very difficult time.

 

[BoilerUP]

Refering to American flight 587.

How DARE you ruin my hyperbole with facts...

 

[Dubya]

Must have missed that class in prdu....

Longer plane is better in ice. Tail has a longer arm making the moment force greater. Plus the tail is father away from the wings downwash..

Aerodynamic BURN!!!:angryfire

Perhaps the first aerodynamic burn in history?

I believe FI should shut down for a time (moment of posting silence) in honor of our fallen crew mates.

So sad, so tragic, and all we can do is bicker and point fingers.



W

 

[ReverseSensing]

Any pilot that KNOWS anything knows that you cannot get LOW & SLOW when on an instrument approach in icing conditions!!

Who says they were? You're really no better than the person you are complaining about by insinuating that the crew might have gotten low and slow on approach.

 

[172driver]

Hey dude,isn't this a bit of a drastic action that you are in favor of???This aircraft,(Dash-8Q400). had a good record up until now!!
Perhaps the problem lies with TRAINING & PROCEDURES???

Any pilot that KNOWS anything knows that you cannot get LOW & SLOW when on an instrument approach in icing conditions!!

And if you knew anything, you would know that the faster you go, the closer you are to a tailplane stall. Extra speed is bad news with ice on the tail.

 

[captain007]

My thoughts go out to the families involved in this horrible accident.

If it is a tail stall that occured, recovery at low altitudes is almost impossible. The Beech Jet has a problem with tail stalls and at netjets we see them every 6 months in training. Pulling back on the yoke, pulling the flaps up, and decreasing thrust (until control is back), is the recovery methods I have been shown. This is a violent act and very difficult to handle.

We will have to wait to see what the NTSB rules as the cause.

Once again this is a sad event in aviation and I wish the best to the families involved.

 

[say again]

Originally Posted by Flyprdu...
You're just a f*ckin idiot. Period.
There should be a minimum IQ required to start a thread.



This coming from the moron that started this thread. You are the f***ckin' idiot. Period.uke:

 

[CheeseDick]

the beechjet had huge tail stall issues.

the heat on it still sucks, but at least you get to try tail stalling in the sim

it still flies

edit: i should've looked two posts above mine. or maybe read the thread first

 

[boilerflyer]

Can someone who flies/flew the Q400 describe the de-icing system on that aircraft? Are there boots on the H and V Stab? Is it automatic? Is there an ice-detection system?

Thanks.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Boots on horizontal and vertical stabs, leading edges, engine inlets, electical props and windows.. can select fast mode, auto/ normal..

Just to be clear, you can select slow or fast auto mode or manual mode. Manual mode is (obviously) manual and not generally used for normal ops; auto mode used for all normal ops. Auto slow is a 3-minute cycle for all six boot sets; auto fast is a 1-minute cycle for all six boot sets. Slow or fast, the cycle is self-homing and will complete one full cycle before turning off, even if selected to off or manual.

There is an ice detection system, with 2 independent ice detection probes. When either probe detects ice, a message flashes on the engine display until the ref speeds switch is selected to INCR, which causes the message to stop flashing. It goes away when ice is no longer detected. Once the ref speeds switch is in the INCR position, the low speed cue, stick shaker and stick pusher calculations are modified accordingly.

 

[NEDude]

How DARE you ruin my hyperbole with facts...

I didn't even look to see who posted it. If I did, I NEVER would have taken you seriously!

How's life treating you these days buddy?

 

[BoilerUP]

Things are good, still holding in there with US3K?

 

[FO 4 Life]

I am still amused that I don't have the facts straight. I said in my first post the ATR was kicked out of the North. I guess if being grounded by the FAA where you could get ice is not being kicked out, well..

From Dec 10, 1994.

"The Federal Aviation Administration yesterday banned two models of propeller-driven commuter planes from flying in conditions when ice is likely to build up on their wings, the first time the agency has issued such an order.

The F.A.A. made the decision after conducting wind tunnel tests in recent weeks on the ATR-72 aircraft, the type of plane that crashed in Roselawn, Ind., in late October, killing all 68 people on board. The plane was operated by American Eagle, a commuter division of American Airlines.

The order affects both the ATR-72 and the ATR-42, a similar but smaller aircraft made by Avions de Transport Regional, a French-Italian consortium formed in 1981. Altogether, there are 153 ATR planes in use in the United States, operated by commuter divisions of Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and Trans World Airlines, in addition to American.

Airlines that operate the aircraft said they would move the planes to warmer parts of the country where icing was less likely to occur, a shift that is likely to disrupt air travel for thousands of passengers in coming days. Although these aircraft represent only about 7 percent of this country's commuter airline fleet, they are among the largest commercial propeller-driven aircraft in use."

Did I ever say they never flew up North again? I know ASA flew them out of CVG, in what 2002? They were forced to be moved or grounded until fixed. Still, nothing I said was incorrect. Better now?

 

[Captzaahlie]

Aerodynamic BURN!!!:angryfire

Perhaps the first aerodynamic burn in history?

I believe FI should shut down for a time (moment of posting silence) in honor of our fallen crew mates.

So sad, so tragic, and all we can do is bicker and point fingers.



W

Awesome idea!


flyprdu dork turn your computer off for a long moment of silence.... the longer the better.

A four puke salute goes out to you !
uke: uke: uke: uke: ​

 

[LongBoarder]

You ignorant fool!!

If what people are saying is true, then this airplane is unsafe and needs to be grounded immediately.

Flyprdu...

Please pull your head out... I hope...HOPE... that I am never on your plane in any kind of weather.



3407 Pilot Error Suspected: WSJ Report

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By Mary Grady, Contributing Editor

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Investigators studying last week's fatal crash of a Continental Connection Dash 8 Q400 in Buffalo, N.Y., now have found evidence that pilot inputs to the controls may have contributed to the airplane's stall, The Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday, citing sources close to the investigation. The flight data recorders show that the flight was routine until roughly a minute before impact, when the crew lowered the landing gear and extended the flaps, according to the WSJ sources. Almost immediately, the airspeed bled off and the stick-shaker activated, followed by a stick-pusher that automatically lowered the nose. It appears the captain pulled back on the stick with enough force to overpower the pusher and added power, causing a 31-degree pitch-up. The wings immediately stalled, and the airplane whipped to the left, then entered a steep right turn. The pilots continued to fight with the controls, and they were starting to recover when they "ran out of altitude," according to the WSJ source. NTSB member Steven Chealander, speaking to The New York Times earlier this week, urged "caution about jumping to conclusions that it might be an icing incident."

 

[mtsupilot376]

The Q400 still has a lesser fail rate than the space shuttle or your xbox 360. One tragedy out of how many million successful flights doesn't quite require us to throw the whole airplane away.

that made me chuckle a bit!