Got academy/ab-initio program experience

[Av8trxx]

I'd like to get some personal responses from those who have attended 'big name' schools like Comair Academy, Pan Am, Sierra Academy, Flight Safety, Gulfstream Academy, Mesa Pilot Develpoment, Westwind ect on a "fast track to the regional airlines" type of program.

What was the approx. cost of your program? More than expected?
What were you promised? Did you get it?
If you got hired, with what carrier? Did all your classmates get jobs too or just interviews?
Would you do it all over again or take a different route?
What would you say about your school to an aspiring pilot?

Since these places cost about twice what you would pay to train at a local flight school, what was the real advantage to you? When I talk about flight training with would-be-aviators, academy type programs are a common subject. I am looking for some real world experiences I can relay to help them decide what might be best for them.

 

[Long Time Gone]

I went to CAA (now DCA) because it was a 14CFR141 program. That was important to me due to the fact that I received reimbursement from the VA. Also, at the time the program was train to proficiency, not required hours (I don't know how the program is currently shaped). I went there with 65 hours post PPL, and left 8 months later with 224TT and all ratings including all 3 CFI's. I spent $47 over my contracted amount (that amount is pure cost and has nothing to do with the reimbursement from the VA). I did not work there because I did not enjoy the "I'm better than you and if you don't work here, you'll never work in this industry" atmosphere that was portrayed.

Very few of my classmates were hired by the academy as Instructors, and of those, fewer now work for Comair.

I now work for a regional carrier.

The flight school environment is a good one, because it can accelerate the learning process. The problem is that your life rotates around the school, just like college. If you currently have a full time job, or like me, need to maintain one to survive, it can become a burden, but it's do-able.

Choose your school carefully.....research before you make the decision. People seem to be getting burnt left and right lately by schools....ATA in ORL is a good example of this.

BTW, the FBI walked into the ORL location of ATA and the SFB location of Discover Air today and seized everything they could get their hands on. It's not on the net yet, but I saw it on the news.

Good luck with your search. I hope I helped.
LTG

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa and FSI

Or, another long bobbysamd MAPD/FSI post!

I was a flight instructor at MAPD and FSI ten years ago. I would say that both programs work, i.e. lead you to the regionals, but in different ways.

MAPD indeed facilitates your entry to Mesa Airlines. Students are trained from the first day in Mesa's line procedures. It is good training, done in A36 Bonanzas and B58 Barons. The program is well organized and facilitates your transition to the Beech 1900 (You will notice that there isn't much difference in the panels among the three aircraft. And flying Beech is, well, flying Beech.). Students get 10 hours of 1900 time. By the time they finish, with 300 hours and an A.S. in Aviation Technology, they are fully imbued with the Mesa line philosophy. That might give them an initial advantage in class, but class is a much different animal than 141 flight training and street hires catch up quickly because of their experience.

Aside from the flying, the major MAPD focus is getting "the interview." At times I felt it was a major "aside." I had a student who seemed to be far more concerned about rushing through to meet his training deadlines than learning to fly well. As an instructor and teacher, that annoyed me. I tried to assure this student that if he just concentrated on his flying lessons that his deadlines would take care of themselves.

Much is made about the Mesa "guaranteed" interview. The interview is really yours to lose, but the truth is you might not get it if you antagonize enough people. I had another student at MAPD who succeeded in that regard, and did not get "the interview." This student was injured in the Air Force and felt that he was owed. This fellow blew an opportunity that some people who fly for years never get.

It takes about eighteen months to finish MAPD. Officially, you finish only with your Commercial-Multi-Instrument and Private single. The place has its own version of the standard 141 curriculum, which requires that students learn the commercial maneuvers. I heard there were ways to get your Commercial Single after you finish the regular course. MAPD does not offer CFI. It has no reason to offer such a course because, theoretically, Mesa Airlines will hire you at 300 hours and you never will have to instruct!

FlightSafety is an excellent school. You can walk in with zero time and walk out seven or eight months later with all your ratings through MEI. I can vouch for the training as being good. Along with the usual training for Commercial-Instrument-Multi FSI includes acro and usual attitudes training as part of the course. It's now done in Zlins; when I was there they used a Decathlon and an Aerobat 152. Ground school when I was there was adequate - could have been more thorough. Great facilities and excellent, well-maintained equipment. Good management there now - better than when I was there eleven years ago. Just the main concern I've always had with accelerated programs is unless you can keep flying immediately after graduating that you could lose what you just learned almost as fast as you gained it. There historically have been instructing opportunities for FSI grads, but last I heard there is a six-month waiting list. I know that FSI had a deal at one time that if you committed to instructing for 800 hours that it would upgrade you on its nickel to CFI-I and MEI. After completing your tour I understood that FSI would get you an interview with ASA or whoever.

FSI is plenty expensive, but I think you get what you pay for in terms of good, standardized, focused training and name recognition.

Finally, I agree with Long Time Gone about the 141 environment. I feel that because it is school you will come out better trained sooner. I trained with private instructors under Part 61. I had to because of my personal situation at the time. I found out later how little I really knew. My flying improved as an instructor under 141. If I had it to do over, I would have gone 141. That's primarily why I favor 141 schools over Part 61.

Hope these comments help. Good luck with your training decision.

 

[stillaboo]

Or, another long bobbysamd MAPD/FSI post!

And another response/clarification from me! It's a shame I'll never share a flight deck with you, Bobby!

All of what bobby says about MAPD is correct, except:

Students get 10 hours of 1900 time.

Not anymore. Students will now be getting time in a RJ FTD (not a sim b/c it's not motion) It's basicly a CRJ FTD. Looks pretty cool from the pictures I saw. Should be up and running by Oct. 2003. Students are now being groomed for the CRJ FO seat, to the chagrin of some Beech FO's. PArt of the new Mesa contract. Search for it if you need more info.

but class is a much different animal than 141 flight training and street hires catch up quickly because of their experience.

Most MAPD grads have fared well in class and IOE, particularly when they were all getting the 1900. It's hard to scew up 1900 GS when you already went through it once before! The idea is RJ GS will work the same in the future.

Officially, you finish only with your Commercial-Multi-Instrument and Private single. The place has its own version of the standard 141 curriculum, which requires that students learn the commercial maneuvers. I heard there were ways to get your Commercial Single after you finish the regular course.

MAPD grads graduate with both a CMEL-I and CSEL-I.

as for YOUR questions, 'Av8trxx'
-What was the approx. cost of your program?
$40,000. All costs, including room and board. I had my PPL before I started, and flew the course to minimums. I'd guess that most students spent more.

-More than expected?
Nope. Less.

-What were you promised?
An interview.

-Did you get it?
Yes.

-If you got hired, with what carrier?
Mesa.

-Did all your classmates get jobs too or just interviews?
All my classmates who finished got interviews. Most (80%) were hired.

-Would you do it all over again or take a different route?
I'd DEFINATELY do it again, though I'd go PACE (get your CMEL-I at MAPD after having a degree and some time. Go to the MAPD website for details)

-What would you say about your school to an aspiring pilot?
Good training, best way to the right seat of a 121 aircraft w/o buying the job. Not easy, though. The best way to make it though the program is to "fly well and keep a low profile". It's the same attitude you should have while on probation. Don't make waves, and you'll be fine. It's not kissing a$$, but there is a bit of diplomacy involved, and, if you're prone to fits of rage and outbusts, it's not a good fit. A flight deck is not a good fit for you either, of course.

-Since these places cost about twice what you would pay to train at a local flight school, what was the real advantage to you?
The training was WAY better than my 61 training. Not b/c of the CFI, but just b/c of the less rigorous atmosphere of the FBO and the 61 environment. MAPD requires their students to fly to a standard that will allow them an opportunity to fly 121 ops with low time. To fly like someone with over 1000 hours when you have 300 or so, you have to set the bar relatively high to begin with (how many pilots solo in a high performance complex, just an example of things that are 'accelerated') My personal view, nothing more. Good pilots come from both sides, and there were some bad ones at MAPD too.

Incidentally, my 61 CFI is now a pilot with YV. Good pilot, good teacher, just teaching a poorly defined curriculum.

-Boo!

edited to correct the error about 121 training being 141 training (thank you yudso and bobby). I wrote w/o thinking. Woops!

 

[Yudso]

Boo,

Bobby is right in reguards to MAPD doing 141 training. Far 121 are the rules governing air carriers. Far 141 lays out the rules for flight school training.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD Clarifications

Originally posted by stillaboo
Students will now be getting time in a RJ FTD (not a sim b/c it's not motion) It's basicly a CRJ FTD. Looks pretty cool from the pictures I saw. Should be up and running by Oct. 2003. Students are now being groomed for the CRJ FO seat, to the chagrin of some Beech FO's.

Really.

Apparently the program has changed over the past couple of years. AVIA 267 must be what Stillaboo is talking about. I stand corrected. This link is to the current MAPD degree program.

I think it bites that new MAPD grads are only getting a non-motion FTD instead of the actual 1900 experience. Just the same, ten hours of turbine is not enough to get you hired, so maybe it doesn't matter. I wouldn't let that change dissuade someone from considering the MAPD program.

First off, Mesa does 121 training, Bobby.

I understand that. But I've heard of MAPD grads who've been washed out of initial Mesa Airline training. Airline training is still different than 141 flight school. Airline instructors are oftentimes less supportive than a CFI who maybe taught you how to fly, trained you for an advanced rating or two, and had a beer with you. Many airline instructors are real prix. That can be real culture shock to someone who knows only 141 flight school.

Of course, MAPD grads know Mesa standardization. In that regard, compare it to the Lufthansa, ANA or JAL ab initio programs. I know two of those three. They learn Mesa from Day One, which another reason why it is a good program. Ten years ago the Beech 1900 was a 135 operation. In fact, MAPD grads got a 135 letter after completing that flight course. After all, if you delve into Mesa history, Larry Risley undoubtedly saw MAPD as another cash cow. A way to make money and to have a source of trained pilots to minimize his training costs. Just the same, there are no ironclad promises that no matter what you'll become a Mesa pilot.

Officially, you finish only with your Commercial-Multi-Instrument and Private single. . . .

MAPD grads graduate with both a CMEL-I and CSEL-I.

Then that must be another change. It used to be that you had to work out a special deal to finish your Commercial Single. That is fine that they've added it. In theory, you shouldn't need a Commercial Single. If you're hired and complete training, you'll go right to the line and never have to think about earning a living by flying single-engine airplanes!

The best way to make it though the program is to "fly well and keep a low profile". It's the same attitude you should have while on probation. Don't make waves, and you'll be fine. It's not kissing a$$, but there is a bit of diplomacy involved, and, if you're prone to fits of rage and outbusts, it's not a good fit.

As I've written previously, I had one such student. That has not changed in ten years.

Since these places cost about twice what you would pay to train at a local flight school, what was the real advantage to you?

The training was WAY better than my 61 training . . . . MAPD requires their students to fly to a standard that will allow them an opportunity to fly 121 ops with low time. To fly like someone with over 1000 hours when you have 300 or so, you have to set the bar relatively high to begin with (how many pilots solo in a high performance complex, just an example of things that are 'accelerated')

That is absolutely accurate about MAPD. Another way to view the high-performance single training concept is many, if not most, MAPD students start with zero time. To them, MAPD is aviation. They don't know from fixed-gear, fixed-prop 172s. That is very much unlike some of us who learned to fly in 172s, etc. and find it unusual or different to teach gear procedures to primary students. Retractable gear and prop levers are very much parts of the airplanes they'll fly for Mesa (jets excepted for the prop levers). Getting that training immediately is another reason why MAPD is a good program and why it does work.

Okay, then, Mr. Boo, maybe you can answer a long-standing unanswered question of mine. What is the fate of MAPD grads who are not interviewed and/or not hired, or not placed in a pool? How are they received outside of Mesa? Positively? Negatively? Do they end up getting their CFIs and work their way up that way?? I raise that question because the ones who aren't interviewed or hired might be asked one day how come Mesa didn't hire them. That could be a tough question to answer.

Good and informative discussion.

PS-Maybe we will never fly together, but you guys fly into DEN. Lemme know when and maybe I can drive over.

 

[Chunk]

FSI grad here....on time/on budget and I didn't push that hard. Expensive, yes. Worth it? Absolutely. The resources here are amazing.

Chunk

 

[stillaboo]

The resources certainly LOOK amazing in that red spandex, Chunk!

-Boo!

 

[stillaboo]

Originally posted by bobbysamd

AVIA 267 must be what Stillaboo is talking about.

Yep. That's the one. It's new, as in the last 2 months or so. I'm not surprised you don't know about it.

I think it bites that new MAPD grads are only getting a non-motion FTD instead of the actual 1900 experience.

I think so too. They lowered the 1900 time to 6 hours for awhile, and now it's gone completely. The best feeling I ever had was the day I stood-up the power levers on 2 PT6's for the first time. I see your logical progression from Bonanza to 1900, but, wow, there's allot of difference b/t a 140 hp piston single C-152 and the 2706 ESHP of a twin turbine airliner like a BE-1900D, at least in the head of a student When the plane you just flew then goes back out with 19 passengers and 2 crew to PHX as ‘America West Express flight 5054’, and they’re using the exact same procedures and call-outs as you just were 15 minutes ago . . . that’s a magical feeling. As students, any time you fly on a Mesa Air Group operated 1900, you have the option of asking the Captain and FO if you can plug in and listen from seat 1A (well, I guess anyone can ask, but they’re a lot more likely to say “yes” to MAPD students. They’ll leave the flight deck doors open too so you can watch the procedures)

Sorry to get off topic. As usual, just about everything Bobby says is true. The program hasn't changed that much.

What is the fate of MAPD grads who are not interviewed and/or not hired, or not placed in a pool? How are they received outside of Mesa? Positively? Negatively? Do they end up getting their CFIs and work their way up that way?? I raise that question because the ones who aren't interviewed or hired might be asked one day how come Mesa didn't hire them. That could be a tough question to answer.

They are 300 TT pilots with about 30 hours of multi, 120 PIC, 2-3 actual Inst., 2 Multi PIC, and 10 Turbine (rough #'s). They are competitive with any other pilot with similar hours. I see CFI, banner pilot, crop duster, traffic watch, etc. in their futures, and then a move to freight dog before moving to the regionals. Call me Miss Cleo.
It's hard to say where they go, honestly. The ones who fail out (for whatever reason, financial, emotional, no stick skills, can't keep up with the pace of the program, etc.) before finishing usually vanish. I only know of two or three of these, unfortunately. One didn't have the stick-and-rudder skills. Another had great stick skills, but though he was Patty Wagstaff (or that he should fly a Bonanza on a XC like she flies an air show), and flew with reckless disregard for safety (he was asked to leave b/c he couldn’t keep up with the academic work, however). A third was preoccupied with firepower, and is now awaiting Warrant Officer schooling for an Apache. I'm interested to se how he does, since my understanding is the other guy does the shooting in the Apache.
Those who actually make it through the whole program and aren't hired . . . well, you never know. One was rejected by Mesa, and then offered a position with Freedom! Interestingly, he made it through GS and IOE fine and is now sitting reserve in PHX on the CRJ-700 and –900. Most don't fall into this kind of good fortune, and end up suing Mesa and/or quitting aviation for good. Not a happy ending, honestly. The 2 things almost all MAPD students who don’t make it have in common is that they were usually not well-liked/respected by fellow students, and they had an attitude or skill level that made them unsuitable for a 2 crew 121 cockpit. These qualities are things that are pretty much unchangeable. If you don’t get along with your fellow pilots or they don’t trust your skills, it’s hard to get a job flying. The old saying that ‘everyone knows everyone, it’s really a small industry’ is really true!
To be quite honest, Mesa does everything in their power to hire the MAPD grads. The ones who blow it (at least the one's I've personally known) are people who slipped through the cracks and got into MAPD somehow, and are, quite frankly, unemployable as professional aviators. Mesa spends 18 months MINIMUM trying to prepare a candidate for the interview, GS, and IOE. They give you all the tools to succeed, and, if you don't have it by then, well, then you just might not have what it takes.
Ultimately, it’s hard to say how the industry treats MAPD students or regards their training. Those that are successful are generally hired, and nobody really gets to see their flying abilities other than Mesa Captains until they upgrade or have over 5000 TT and 3000 Turbine PIC and are applying to majors. Those that are unsuccessful would have likely been unsuccessful as professional pilots anyway. Since there are so few of them that I am aware of that attempt to continue to try to achieve positions on a professional flight deck, I can only guess at the impact they have on the industry’s feeling regarding MAPD. I’d guess that one wouldn’t be overly impressed with MAPD if you were to judge the program only by those that weren’t successful, but, I’d say judging any program by those that didn’t meet it’s standards is inherently unfair. Being surrounded by other successes, I’ve perhaps insulated myself from the reputation of those that weren’t successes. Honestly, I don’t know how the industry would EVER be able to make a qualified statement about the quality of the grads since they will never get the opportunity to judge any of them (the unsuccessful vanish and the successes aren’t seen outside of Mesa till they’re highly skilled and qualified by even the most jaded of opinions). As far as those who make it, no MAPD ab-intio student has EVER failed out of a 1900 GS or 1900 IOE, and there’s a 95% success rate on the jets and Dash. Those #’s speak for themselves.

I’m uncomfortable being the lone voice of an MAPD grad on this board, but I’m trying to be as objective as possible. Please point out anything amiss and I will do my best to correct it, and, as always, will entertain any questions about the program. I honestly believe it is a great program, and find that it is quite hard to drag up too much negative feedback on the program. I think there’s a reason for that, and am totally perplexed as to why one 11 students enrolled in the program last semester. I think their marketing sux! They need a full page color ad like Commair has or something.

-Boo!

PS- Bobby, I’m not in the DEN system, but, if I ever get over that way, I’d love to meet up for BBQ

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD Grad rejects/failures

Those who actually make it through the whole program and aren't hired . . . well, you never know. One was rejected by Mesa, and then offered a position with Freedom!

That is rich. Not good enough for union "mainline" but apparently good enough for scab startup? (I realize there is one list now at Mesa.) I don't understand that. Didn't both use the same standardization?

I would have hated to have been one of those grads. Although Freedom would have posed a great temptation to a new MAPD grad who may not be feeling particularly good about himself/herself after regular Mesa rejected him/her, and who might be wondering what benefit he/she received from the program, I would have taken the Freedom offer as an affront. In other words, now I am good enough. What an insult!

Most . . . end up suing Mesa and/or quitting aviation for good. Not a happy ending, honestly.

Suing Mesa. What a surprise. <sigh> I wonder which legal theories. Bad faith? Breach of promise?

To be quite honest, Mesa does everything in their power to hire the MAPD grads . . . . Mesa spends 18 months MINIMUM trying to prepare a candidate for the interview, GS, and IOE. They give you all the tools to succeed . . .

That is my point above. The interview is yours to lose. I remember from ten years ago the discussion I had with my Chief Instructor about the aforementioned problem student. He said the school could not possibly send this individual to Corporate. When I was there the school took a great deal of pride in the students it groomed for Mesa.

In any program there are those who make it and those who fail. Assuming the rejects are still quality people whom the school groomed for success, I wonder if they bite the bullet, get their CFIs and make it that way. And, I would say they have every reason to be bitter at Mesa for (1) having to become flight instructors after being fed a bunch of promises and (2) having to spend more money to get their CFIs. Bitterness at Mesa would also not be a surprise, because, at least ten years ago, Mesa excelled at engendering it.

MAPD is a good program. It is not an easy program, but there are benefits. Aside from "the interview," a college degree comes with it. San Juan College is fully accredited, so most credits should transfer to a four-year school (Actually, quite a few MAPD students already have four-year degrees and need only to take enough Aviation Technology courses to get the A.A.S.).

Thanks for answering my question. We'll get BBQ if you come to town.

 

[de727ups]

Stillaboo

Thanks for your great posts about the inner workings of MAPD.

I'm against super low time pilots flying airliners and don't like MAPD for a lot of reasons...just my opinion. You'll never change my mind and I'll never change yours, so no point in arguing about it...

"no MAPD ab-intio student has EVER failed out of a 1900 GS or 1900 IOE"

I have a good friend who used to be a 1900 check airman at Mesa/Air Midwest. He had some interesting stories about some of the MAPD folks. He said they were hard working and motivated but lacked real world skills. Most got through with the typical minimal time that the airlines like, some took some extra time, but I find it hard to believe none EVER failed IOE. I'll ask him next time I see him if he ever failed anyone. Could be some just got sent to a different check airman to "pass". Also, if no one ever failed, do you think that might say something about the standards that were being inforced...or is Mesa's training program just that good.

Another thing that worries me about MAPD is you get a pool of guys who really can't go anywhere else with their skills other than Mesa. A great guy like JO can put pressure on his pilot union with a work force that has no options but to do what he says. That's not a good thing for the union pilots at Mesa. Do you feel the MAPD guys would have been under more pressure, if the TA hadn't been signed, to work for Freedom? Do you think a typical MAPD guy would walk away rather than be a scab? JO is excellent at whipsawing and it's unfortunate that the union couldn't get a better deal. Hope JO never moves up in the industry....

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD Skillset

Originally posted by de727ups
Another thing that worries me about MAPD is you get a pool of guys who really can't go anywhere else with their skills other than Mesa . . . .

That's where I've been coming from regarding the "cons" of MAPD v. traditional schools.

Everything about MAPD is predicated on getting "the interview" and getting hired. More than likely you will at least get "the interview" and you very well may be hired. And you very well may get through class and IOE. But what if you don't? Didn't Murphy say that if something can go wrong it will?

I would be one disappointed and pissed-off MAPD grad if I acted right, did everything right, maintained my B average, made nice to bobbysamd, who was my Instrument instructor , and did not get hired. Meaning that I have to decide how to proceed - and probably incurring more training costs for a CFI or something.

Chances are, things will go right. But, they may not. Just some food for thought when considering Mesa against a traditional Commercial-Instrument-CFI program

 

[stillaboo]

The #'s don't lie

if no one ever failed, do you think that might say something about the standards that were being inforced...or is Mesa's training program just that good.

Do you feel the MAPD guys would have been under more pressure, if the TA hadn't been signed, to work for Freedom? Do you think a typical MAPD guy would walk away rather than be a scab?

Well, I think MAPD has so much success b/c they only send guys to corporate that they think will make it in the first place, but, I'm biased, so, I'll stop there. Their success speaks for itself, I think. (if you look below, out of a group of 78 MAPD grads, 2 interviewed at Mesa and were turned down, though one is now on-line at Freedom, 1 didn't interview at Mesa and failed out of Freedom, and 1 was hired at Mesa and failed at Freedom. That's a grand total of 2 failed interviews and 2 busted sim rides out of a group of 78, and one of the failed interviewed later passed IOE. 3 washouts out of 78. Pretty good record, I'd say)

I am positive that many MAPD guys would have gone Freedom if the contract wasn't signed. While I support ALPA and know what it has done for me, ALPA has done nothing for MAPD students except make them wait longer for a ground school (getting CC Air guys their jobs back -with seniority- after they tried to vote in a concessionary contract. JO is one smart cookie!). MAPD students don't really owe anything to ALPA. Now, that being said, every MAPD student has to finish turbine training before they go to the interview. This requires each student to spend 40 hours with a Mesa line-Captain, all of whom didn't go Freedom, so I can only assume that they were sure to mention both sides of the Freedom argument.

As far as MAPD students and Freedom, these are the facts.

Out of a pool of about 78 MAPD grads who completed the program and had the opportunity to interview/ go to Freedom:
-37 were hired by Mesa and offered a Freedom GS (up to 3 times in some cases), which they turned down. All 37 are still waiting for GS with Mesa as of today (6/15/03).
-25 took the Freedom GS. Most didn't even interview, they just went straight into GS. 1 was on-line at Mesa and went over to Freedom. 1 was hired at Mesa and went to Freedom and failed out of the sim, while another never interviewed at Mesa and failed out of the sim. Still another was denied at Mesa, but then made it through the Freedom sim. The rest were hired at Mesa and went to the first GS offered to them.
-16 interviewed at Freedom before they were ever offered a Mesa interview. Freedom didn't call them back b/c the contract was signed b/f they could be offered GS. 15 of the 16 were eventually hired by Mesa.

So, a bit more than 1/2 of all MAPD grads who had the opportunity refused to go to Freedom. Of those former grads on-line, I believe only 8-9 went to Freedom. On the other hand, about 1/3 of all Freedom guys (and virtually all of the FO's) came directly out of the program and went straight to CRJ-700 and -900 FO, and some of Freedom’s biggest champions were former grads. Chances are, virtually every current Freedom FO came from MAPD (vs. on-line) and sold out the pilots (there are still very few Mesa guys over there as of yet). And, there were 16 more in the wings, ready to go to Freedom. They will now fly for Mesa.

So, I'd say, considering that MAPD grads were virtually un-employable anywhere else, the fact that over 1/2 of them turned down a CRJ-700 or -900 is pretty remarkable. How many 300 hour 'wonder-pilots' do you know who would refuse a job flying a 86 passenger jet on principle with no options of employment elsewhere? Yet again, the actions of the MAPD grads speak for themselves.

Ironically, they guys who 'put in their dues', 'earned the right', etc., the MAPD instructors (who all had over 2000 TT and at last 300 multi) . . . all but one went to Freedom! That is why I occasionally don't see eye-to-eye with the CFI crowd. I watched all of them (but one) knowingly undermine me and my fellow co-workers for 'the shiny jet'. Actions speak louder than words, yet again, and the #’s I see tell me that CFI’s talk-the-talk but don’t walk-the-walk, while students generally don’t talk (the big ego’s are the ones who don’t make it on-line) and they most certainly ‘walk-the-walk’. As you can see, this group of 15 or so CFI’s did a huge disservice to the CFI community in the eyes of many former ‘wonder pilots’.

In short, to the question “Do you think a typical MAPD guy would walk away rather than be a scab?” , I can tell you that I KNOW the typical one wouldn’t, b/c they didn’t.

-Boo!

 

[de727ups]

"I am positive that many MAPD guys would have gone Freedom if the contract wasn't signed."

"In short, to the question “Do you think a typical MAPD guy would walk away rather than be a scab?” , I can tell you that I KNOW the typical one wouldn’t, b/c they didn’t."

Guess I'm confused...let's say the Mesa pilot's voted down the TA and were still talking...and Freedom starts expanding. Are you saying MAPD guys would or would not walk away from the chance to work at Freedom. Remember what ALPA's stance was on the Freedom issue and how much leverage Freedom gave JO during the contract talks.

"MAPD students don't really owe anything to ALPA."
"ALPA has done nothing for MAPD students..."

I felt this way when I had 300 hours, too. Perhaps ALPA needs to do a better job at encouraging and educating low time airline pilot wannabes.

I was a young low timer during the Continental strike in the 80's and I remember Lorenzo advertising for pilots in the paper. I think it was 75K for Capts and 50K for F/O's and the experience minimums were pretty low....too high for me, though. I knew nothing about unions or ALPA and hate to think what would have happened had I had more experience. On the other hand, had I pursued the offer, I'm sure I would have become EDUCATED before I set foot on the property.

Had I known then what ALPA has done for the career, I wouldn't have thought twice about it, no way would I have thought of being a scab if I knew what a scab was. Sure, you can knock ALPA and unions but this job wouldn't be anywhere near what it is if it wasn't for ALPA over the years. ALPA never should have got involved with regional airlines cause it's created a big mess, but I don't think you can argue that regional pilots don't need a union and that ALPA is bad for the piloting profession. Think of where we'd be if we had no protection from the JO's of the world....

"MAPD students don't really owe anything to ALPA."
"ALPA has done nothing for MAPD students..."

I think MAPD students do owe a lot to ALPA if they are chasing the dream of being a pilot at a major airline....they just don't know it.

I'm not surprized that the MAPD CFI's jumped ship to work at Freedom...they are part of "the system". I'm guessing JO has a lot of leverage in the MAPD system and encouraged those guys to help bust the union. How many non-MAPD involved, ex-CFI's, were working at Freedom? A few came from Mesa but I bet not many from the street. I think your confusing street CFI's with those involved in the MAPD scheme when you start to question the integrity of those who went to Freedom.