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Good MD-10 Article

skiandsurf

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Attkpuke said:
SKI...16000 hours flying time and you talk like this. Thats alot of time and/or experience around airplanes. You're either a liar or a guy who's busted a lot of check rides. I dont know anyone with more than 1500 hours that has such a simple minded view of this profession. You know what they say..."God protects fools and drunks!"

A lot....not alot.

Yes 16,000 hours+. Two engine failures. A list of other mechanical emergencies, and medical emergencies. I have never left a plane on the runway.

I just got my lastest issue of Airline Pilot magazine. The quote on the front cover from Capt. Robert Buck is appropriate....

"My heroes are the unknown, unheralded airline pilots who fly without incident or accident..."

I guess at FedEx they dont use that motto.

Now without an arguement, do you have a list of airlines that your company cannot travel you on? If so, who is on the list?
 

Occam's Razor

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Purpled said:
Dude, I don't know what your problem with us is...but this article is mostly about design flaw and structural integrity issues. It specificly points to how minor deviations made by the pilot should not have resulted in such an outcome.

No problem. My original question sounded pointed only because I didn't know a better way to ask it. I want to know what differences there are between operators that fly the same aircraft. As I mentioned in my most recent post, I'm not trying to start a flame-war here. I'm honestly stumped as to how FDX could be flipping and/or burning DC-10's (or their VERY similar variants) while other operators aren't. Since I flew the DC-10 at NWA (which has operated that type longer than FDX) I have some frame-of-reference on the characteristics of the DC-10-30 and -40. I also know a large number of FDX pilots, and every one of them is a skilled professional.

I'm just trying to what the difference is. Is it higher strut and/or tire pressures? Is the type of brakes? Is the SOP for landings?

I have too much regard for my FDX buddies to think that it is "poor piloting". I'm looking for some other cause.

Purpled said:
Please expand on all of our DC-10 accidents, I'm tired and can't remember any of the details.

C'mon. We both know the history of flipped/burned DC-10's (and their variants) at FDX. At NWA there have been zero...dated back to well-before FDX took delivery of their first one. At FDX there have been more than zero.

If you believe it's merely a statistical aberration...say so. If you want to mud-wrassle on this Forum...say so.

Purpled said:
I'm sorry if we didn't hire you, one of us boned your wife, or we lost your package.

Never applied. Fred Smith tried at a party in '88, but she's got a loud-mouthed Marine at home already. Nope...all on time and in good shape!

Purpled said:
If it makes you happy-- "Northwest has the best pilots and I could only wish to stand in their shadow some day"...better?

Your self-esteem called. He wants to know if he can come home now. He promises to help you with your "wood" issues...

[And yes...I feel better. Thanks!]

Purpled said:
Oh yeah, since you're Occam's Razor, then what would Occam's Razor say about multiple gear collapses in an airframe? Most obvious answer? That's right, there is a gear problem.

Wrong-o! The "most obvious" answer to the riddle of why only one US carrier flips and/or burns DC-10's and the others don't is they operate their aircraft differently. The gear is the same on our aircraft. And since some of your DC-10's were UAL aircraft, we can assume the gear is the same as well...unless you guys changed them after delivery.
 

fartknocker

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skiandsurf said:
I just got my lastest issue of Airline Pilot magazine. The quote on the front cover from Capt. Robert Buck is appropriate....

"My heroes are the unknown, unheralded airline pilots who fly without incident or accident..."

I guess at FedEx they dont use that motto.

Of course at FedEx they don't try to crash airplanes. Sh!t happens. I don't know of many airlines that haven't had a few incidents in their history. You try to learn from the mistakes of others and make improvements so that it doesn't happen again.

There's no reason to say one particular airline is more dangerous that any other.
 
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vschip

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Since I flew the DC-10 at NWA (which has operated that type longer than FDX) I have some frame-of-reference on the characteristics of the DC-10-30 and -40.

Occam, not to get into a mud slinging contest, I know NWA has had DC-10 for much longer than FDX, but how many? As of Jan 06, FDX had 47 MD-10's, and 48 MD-11's, as of 3/31/06, NWA had 14 DC-10's, I know that the MD-10's get at least 4 landings a day, 11's would get less due to longer legs, I guess, how many landings do the NWA DC-10's get daily? After flying MD-10's for a month, then having my recurrent this weekend in a 11 sim, they do fly differently, but no so different that a professional couldn't handle it. As for us flipping DC-10's, I don't feel like looking it up, but I think we've only flipped 11's, no 10's, either DC or MD. I'm not too proud of our safety record, but is there a recurrent theme? Being biased, the only one I can think of is old airplanes...any one know what was in the enders report???
 

skiandsurf

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skiandsurf said:
Now without an arguement, do you have a list of airlines that your company cannot travel you on? If so, who is on the list?

Still no answer. I will take that as a "yes". Now, who is on the no fly list and why?
 

Sluggo_63

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Occam's Razor said:
I want to know what differences there are between operators that fly the same aircraft. As I mentioned in my most recent post, I'm not trying to start a flame-war here. I'm honestly stumped as to how FDX could be flipping and/or burning DC-10's (or their VERY similar variants) while other operators aren't. Since I flew the DC-10 at NWA (which has operated that type longer than FDX) I have some frame-of-reference on the characteristics of the DC-10-30 and -40. I also know a large number of FDX pilots, and every one of them is a skilled professional.
I don't know. Midwest Express has never crashed (or even had an incident) with any of their B-717's, but yet NWA has had 21 incidents in their DC-9 fleet (3 of them fatal). I'm stumped as to how NWA could be banging up B-717's (or their VERY similar variants) while other operators aren't... I also know a large number of NWA pilots, and every one of them is a skilled professional. Yada, yada, yada.
 

FedEx1

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For Purpled and whomever... You are correct.

The Louisville thing was not an accident nor an incident. Neither the FAA nor the NTSB was involved. And yes, the crew is back flying the line.
 

A350

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Perhaps the gear failures are a result of flawed engineering when it comes to operating the aircraft at weights that far exceed the initial design.

Food for thought.

A350
 

ils2minimums

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jdec141 said:
The Louisville plane is fine. I flew it last night.

RRRaaaaannnnnccccchhhh...
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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ptarmigan said:
NWA has what, 14 DC-10s, all used on long haul. FedEx has how many MD-11/DC-10/MD-10s, used on short haul as well as long haul? Look it up and then reconsider.


These days, they are only long haul since they are being retired. On the contrary, NWA had many DC-10's, and they were used for short and long haul.

In the later years, the -40's (pratt equipped, lower MTOW than the -30's, also autothrust could not be used on takeoff and in cruise) were used primarily for domestic operations and have since been replaced with the 757-300's which are used in like manner. The -30's are newer and are still being used for the long haul operations until the last one is retired early next year. They are being replaced by the A330's.

What flare technique is taught in the MD-10? It should be similar if not identical to the technique used on the DC-10. The DC-10 at NWA had a reputation for being one of the smoothest landing aircraft around...

Flaps 35 approach should be at 4 degrees nose up..at the 35 foot tone the nose comes up 2 degrees, at 20 feet an addition 3 degrees whilst reducing the thrust levers to idle, resulting in 8-9 degrees nose up at touchdown.

For a crosswind- it is the same technique as in other large jet aircraft... flown in a crab and a cross control slip before touchdown.



This article is also wrong as far as the increased gross weight- the -30EER has been flown at 590,000 pounds (ER at 580,000 pounds) for many years now with a landing weight of 411,000 pounds.
 
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Occam's Razor

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vschip said:
Occam, not to get into a mud slinging contest, I know NWA has had DC-10 for much longer than FDX, but how many?

I think we maxed-out at 41 of them.

vschip said:
As of Jan 06, FDX had 47 MD-10's, and 48 MD-11's, as of 3/31/06, NWA had 14 DC-10's, I know that the MD-10's get at least 4 landings a day, 11's would get less due to longer legs, I guess, how many landings do the NWA DC-10's get daily?

Dunno. I suppose it could be sheer volume...but I don't recall a single landing-related mishap in a NWA DC-10. I'm not sure UAL had many, if any, either. Do you believe it's strictly a function of numbers? More flights = flip/burn?

vschip said:
After flying MD-10's for a month, then having my recurrent this weekend in a 11 sim, they do fly differently, but no so different that a professional couldn't handle it. As for us flipping DC-10's, I don't feel like looking it up, but I think we've only flipped 11's, no 10's, either DC or MD.

Good gouge. I've tried to keep it relating to landing mishaps where the aircraft either flipped over...or caught fire after landing.

vschip said:
I'm not too proud of our safety record, but is there a recurrent theme? Being biased, the only one I can think of is old airplanes...any one know what was in the enders report???

The simplest explaination would be that you guys operate them differently, but I don't think that's it. I think it could be something related to the way weight is distributed or how the aircraft are serviced.
 

Occam's Razor

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Sluggo_63 said:
I don't know. Midwest Express has never crashed (or even had an incident) with any of their B-717's, but yet NWA has had 21 incidents in their DC-9 fleet (3 of them fatal). I'm stumped as to how NWA could be banging up B-717's (or their VERY similar variants) while other operators aren't... I also know a large number of NWA pilots, and every one of them is a skilled professional. Yada, yada, yada.

Somebody needs a hug!

Since none of the NWA mishaps over the years have a common theme or follow a specific "trend"...such as taking place on landing with the hull subsequently destroyed by fire...I'm gonna go with, "What is 'volume of operations', Alex".

The 3 fatal accidents resulted in significant changes in the way the fleet was operated...with the result being none of the boo boo's were repeated. The other mishaps included some that weren't caused by NWA. (When a fuel truck driver rams into your DC-9 15-hours into his 16-hour shift, it's tough to correct)

I'm sorry if you feel your ox is getting gored here.
 

ptarmigan

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The landing technique mentioned above is exactly what I do in both the MD11 and MD10, although the MD10 requires more stick force to accomplish it. Either way, if you do that, absent gusts, etc (in which case you better be on the thottles and aggressive in any transport I've flown), they roll on. I will turn the autothrottles off regularly in both types, just for scan practice, but I generally leave it on as otherwise it would take all the challenge out of getting a great landing! Autothrottles on, I do exactly as described above, and both types virtually always just roll on. Leave the power up with the a/t off or "guarding" them, and it is almost impossible not to land smooth, but at the cost of using more pavement.

Another factor to consider is the relative weights we operate, which are likely a lot higher than other operators. Also, watch those turns when heavy, as that is about the most stress you can put on the gear in any type.
 

ultrarunner

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Huck said:
On July 31, 1997, a FedEx MD-11F touched down
hard at Newark, New Jersey with a 500 ft/min descent rate and a slight
right bank. The right wing-spar broke and the aircraft ended up on its
back, burning.

500 fpm????

Sensitive beast, itsn't it?
 

ptarmigan

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ultrarunner said:
500 fpm????

Sensitive beast, itsn't it?

Let me guess. You're one of the pilots that didn't know that you can't kick rudders around without breaking airplanes (applies to ALL transports, not just Airbus, before you go there!).

There is a lot more to it than vertical speed, as I wrote previously. NTSB would have cited the design, otherwise.
 

Purpled

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OK, I think we're mostly on the same page of the novel now. We're going over and over the same info, speculation, etc. We're saying the same thing, being redundant, repeating ourselves, saying the same thing.

Let me offer this question to all--

What conclusion would you individually draw about all of the data presented here if--and this is only an if--this latest gear collapse mishap turns out to be unrelated to the pilots actions(i.e. not pilot error)?

Let's say it was a good landing and the darn thing just collapsed at the 2-board. Certainly, for the crew's sake, I hope this is true; but mostly I'm curious about the opinions here.

Have at it hosses!
 

Purpled

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Occam's Razor said:
No problem. My original question sounded pointed only because I didn't know a better way to ask it. I want to know what differences there are between operators that fly the same aircraft. As I mentioned in my most recent post, I'm not trying to start a flame-war here. I'm honestly stumped as to how FDX could be flipping and/or burning DC-10's (or their VERY similar variants) while other operators aren't. Since I flew the DC-10 at NWA (which has operated that type longer than FDX) I have some frame-of-reference on the characteristics of the DC-10-30 and -40. I also know a large number of FDX pilots, and every one of them is a skilled professional.

I'm just trying to what the difference is. Is it higher strut and/or tire pressures? Is the type of brakes? Is the SOP for landings?

I have too much regard for my FDX buddies to think that it is "poor piloting". I'm looking for some other cause.



C'mon. We both know the history of flipped/burned DC-10's (and their variants) at FDX. At NWA there have been zero...dated back to well-before FDX took delivery of their first one. At FDX there have been more than zero.

If you believe it's merely a statistical aberration...say so. If you want to mud-wrassle on this Forum...say so.



Never applied. Fred Smith tried at a party in '88, but she's got a loud-mouthed Marine at home already. Nope...all on time and in good shape!



Your self-esteem called. He wants to know if he can come home now. He promises to help you with your "wood" issues...

[And yes...I feel better. Thanks!]



Wrong-o! The "most obvious" answer to the riddle of why only one US carrier flips and/or burns DC-10's and the others don't is they operate their aircraft differently. The gear is the same on our aircraft. And since some of your DC-10's were UAL aircraft, we can assume the gear is the same as well...unless you guys changed them after delivery.

Tell your wife I'm sorry about the Fred incident.

As for self esteem, I already have too much of that to get me in trouble where-ever I go.

My only point about us operating MD-10s solo is that I don't think the DC and MD 10s are alike enough to make a mishap rate comparison--unless they were all doing the same thing repeatedly.
 

Sluggo_63

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Occam's Razor said:
Somebody needs a hug!

Since none of the NWA mishaps over the years have a common theme or follow a specific "trend"...such as taking place on landing with the hull subsequently destroyed by fire...I'm gonna go with, "What is 'volume of operations', Alex".

The 3 fatal accidents resulted in significant changes in the way the fleet was operated...with the result being none of the boo boo's were repeated. The other mishaps included some that weren't caused by NWA. (When a fuel truck driver rams into your DC-9 15-hours into his 16-hour shift, it's tough to correct)

I'm sorry if you feel your ox is getting gored here.
Leave my ox out of this please.

FedEx has had ZERO (I say again ZERO) mishaps with the DC-10 that were landing related. Our hull losses were confined to an undocumented haz incident and maybe the hijacking aircraft. Our record with the DC-10 rivals that of NWA.

What the pilots here are saying is that the MD-11/MD-10/DC-10 are significanly different that they can't be compared with the DC-10 statistics. Most of these guys/gals (not me) have flown both the MD and the DC so I'm going to have to take their word for it. You should, too.
 

Huck

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I loved flying the DC-10.

The MD-10 flies that good, and has the FMS to make it even better.

The MD-11 lands faster and is much more sensitive in pitch (remember - it was initially certified with the LSAS off below a certain altitude in the flare). To look like a pro you use a very measured roundout - I start it at 30 feet and see how she reacts, then fine tune it at 10' or so.

The thing is - an MD10-10 in a big crosswind has MUCH less inertia - let those throttles go back at 50' with all that boot in and she's gonna drop like a bag of wet hammers. Click them off and leave the power in and you'll do fine - and still stop in 5000 feet.

At GAC we always clicked the autothrottles off on landing on the DC10 (and I did on the -11). I have no idea why this isn't the policy at FDX on the MD10. I know I know - they say "guard the throttles", but what if it takes both hands to hold the cross-controls in?
 
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