GoJet (Trans States 2) will fly Aug 05

[Reelbigfish]

Even using the specious "the Guvmint takes some of my money, and so does Hulas for his cruddy health plan, so I don't really make as much as you think I do" argument (and who among us COULDN'T use that formula?), $661/wk still equates to $1432/mo... This is a full car payment more than "$1100/mo".

Again, just asking we keep our exaggerations in check.

661 biweekly, what the original poster said, is only $1322/mo. More than $1100/mo, but that would have to be a pretty crappy car for that payment.

 

[BoilerUP]

Seafeye

I agree with most of what you said, but...

Don't forget that you knew what you were getting into when you accepted the job offer with Trans States. You remember what Gulfstream 200 says about that, don't you? I admire the fact you want to change the profession for the better. Hopefully you'll volunteer your time to the union and be proactive, not reactive, in improving your pay and QOL. I hope to do the same thing in a year or two, when I'm in your shoes.

All that being said, it'll be a cold day in Hell when I accept a job offer for GoJet or whatever non-union scab carrier Hulas tries to open. Good luck to you and all your associates there; I am afraid that you might need it.

Respectfully,

BoilerUP

 

[I.P. Freley]

661 biweekly, what the original poster said, is only $1322/mo. More than $1100/mo, but that would have to be a pretty crappy car for that payment.

You are correct... If there's only 24 weeks per year (biweekly X 12mos), which obviously there are not. I multiplied 661 by 26 and divided by 12, which equals $1432/mo... Even if I mistakenly typed "661/wk" when I meant "661 every other week". And I think $332/mo is a payment on an okay car, no?

This assumes no overtime, of course.

 

[I.P. Freley]

We should get paid each and every hour that we are "Under the clock".

That would be nice, but no airline pilot anywhere gets paid this way. This is an example of how labor costs actually COULD bankrupt the company.

And using that logic, I'd love to know what the soldiers in Iraq are making hourly.

 

[apache]

History lesson from a former TSA bro

I took home $382 per pay period for my first year in the Jetstream in '91. I think that was what $14/hr and a 60 hour guarantee got you back then. Second year was the biggest pay raise in the scale going all of the way up to $16.80/hr. Of course they really didn't expect us to live on that because we had plenty of extra flight pay because we could be scheduled up to 120 hours a month back then under 135.

Your predecessors brought a union on the property to try to gain some near humane treatment and respect from the company and our airline peers. Most of us knew that we wouldn't receive many benefits in the short term. I know I never gained much after we brought the union in, but those after us should stand a better chance.

My point: If you people allow Hulio to cut you guys out of the deal with this new scab outfit, then at least make sure that those "professionals" work for no more than the pay scale I previously mentioned from 1991.

And for those like that doooshbag that thinks that this is a good way to get some of that 70-90 seat flying, you had best be worried about your coworkers giving you an unexpected swirlie down in the ramper's head. You must have your head stuffed so far up your butt that you can taste management dik.

Trivia: VP flt ops was a meatcutter before he decided to become a really well educated airline pilot. A UNION meatcutter. That's where he learned to stuff the sausage hard and deep.

 

[gobigred1]

I may be wrong but isn't a scab pilot someone who crosses a picket line? I AM NOT in favor of getting screwd by the new compnay anymore then the next waterskier but I get tired of all the idiots ranting about the "scab pilots". There are no scab pilots YET and until they are, lets sound inteligent and stop calling people scabs who aren't scabs. Just my .02

 

[apache]

A scab is also something that gathers over a festering wound. I think that applies also. Do you think that we are picking at them? Get it?

 

[temcgrew]

A scab is also something that gathers over a festering wound. I think that applies also. Do you think that we are picking at them? Get it?[/

Are you a scab to me becouse it bothers me the way you are trying to label people in this industry? (remember, it is the wound that is the problem, the scab is the part the helps to HEAL THE WOUND!) You, to me, are a festering would becouse you do not use the term the right way. There is a time to use it and a time to let it go. If you use it on everyone you disagree with, the term gets watered down and has no power or credibility anymore.

I heard someone the other day saying that anyone who goes to GoJet will be taking his flying, and that makes him a scab. His rational for saying that was becouse if it weren't for those who went there and "stole" HIS flying, he would be there becouse he "DESERVED IT" since he had been at Trans States for 3 years.

My points are that:

1. It isn't his flying, becouse it would never happen without a new company. So TSAH doesn't start a new company and therefore there is no opportunity. Should he compain to the company that they are taking "HIS" flying becouse they can't get 70 seaters for united?

2. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line and takes away from the striking pilot barganing power. This is done becouse the company isn't hurt to bad since the REVENUE FLYING is still being partially done by those who cross the picket line. Isn't the purpose of striking to get more bargaining power by hurting the companies revenue?


3. GoJet pilots will not be SCABS in this sense becouse the union hasn't any bargaining power againts them operating a new company. (were the continental pilots scabs when eastern was on strike? After all, they were owned by the same company right?) Since the union at trans states cannot prevent revenue flights from being operated and since they have no power over GOJET in the first place, then pilots who work there cannot take away bargaining power from the Union, since they have none in the first place.

Everyone who is getting so bunched up about this need to realize the state of the industry. You may not like this, but this is the way it is headed at the moment in time. With silly definitions of scabs, we could all be considered scabs soon no matter who we work for.

 

[BoilerUP]

With your third point, are you SURE you're not a Freedumb A graduate?

That sounds like some of the convoluted thinking Bogberto and company are trying to beat down on MesaLounge.

just one outsider's $.02

 

[temcgrew]

Well, yes it does sound good for an OUTSIDERS .02 CENTS.

and no I am not a Freedom A lister. But It is unbelievable that everytime I point out a fact that I am accused of that. When you become an INSIDER maybe then you can gather enough information to chat about the whole topic in a more educated way.

Again, let me say....the Union has no leverage and GOJET pilots will not get in the way of the "NON-LEVERAGE" anyway.

Look back in your history book to all of the other scab lists, these were picket line crossers who basically took the crowbar from the hands of the Union to obtain any leverage that a strike affords.

 

[temcgrew]

QUOTE]All that being said, it'll be a cold day in Hell when I accept a job offer for GoJet or whatever non-union scab carrier Hulas tries to open.[/QUOTE]
Can anyone tell me of a start up airline that was Unionized BEFORE it hired anyone? Of course management is not going to start a company with a union in place! how can they? It is the pilots who will be able to do this once they get in there! I have been hearing nothing but NON-UNION carrier from every corner of these places. Why and how would "uncle hulie" be able to set up a company with a nice union in place with a wonderfull contract? would he have to hire the MEC chairman? No it is the body of the pilots that would vote for representation.

If we are going to get this stuff right, we need to understand how it all works and were the bargaining/leverage is coming from.

 

[nimtz]

QUOTE]
If we are going to get this stuff right, we need to understand how it all works and were the bargaining/leverage is coming from.

If we are going to get this stuff right could somebody define the word BECOUSE for me please. I'll use it in a sentence so there is no confusion:

"Are you a scab to me becouse it bothers me the way you are trying to label people in this industry?"

This word appears numerous times in the 4th post up from here. Due to my unfamiliarity with the definition I can't seem to translate the sentence as a result.

 

[acaTerry]

It isn't his flying, becouse it would never happen without a new company.

Tell this to any of the legitimate Mesa pilots who were told the same thing as JO nearly ran them extinct with Freedumb.
BTW, learn to spell.

 

[stillflyn]

Ode to a Scab

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which he made a SCAB. A SCAB is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a SCAB comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out. No man has a right to SCAB as long as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a SCAB. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A SCAB HASN't!

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise for a commission in the British Army. The modern strike-breaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children, and his fellow-men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporatrion.

-Jack London, 1915


This is the defination of a true scab. One who crosses a lawful picketline. They will NEVER be forgiven.

Freedom and GoJet pilots do not fall in with them. They are a few steps above a true SCAB. They are defined as......

S elect
C rewmembers
A dvocating
B-scale

Keep this in mind when sending in an app to this new company!

 

[BoilerUP]

I agree, I was misusing the term "scab". A "scab" is somebody who crosses a picket line, and in the case of the UAL/EAL/CAL strikes of the 80s and early 90s, whatever definition their MECs and ALPA define "scab" to be. At least this is according to the Master Scab List I have and "Flying the Line Vol. 2".

All that nonsense and ad hominum attacks by you aside, you are saying the TSA union has no right to any flying by GoJet or any other carrier started by Trans States Airlines or Trans States Holdings (or whatever company its formed under).

Please, tell that to a Chautauqua pilot whose job was threatened by non-union Republic. Tell that to a Mesa pilot whose job (through the subsequent contract) was majorly affected by non-union Freedom. It doesn't take a card-carrying ALPA member or a labor attorney to see that a non-union carrier flying 70 seat aircraft for the same holding company as Trans States has a major impact on TSA's ALPA-represented pilots.

While most of this is rampant rumor and speculation, and may not matter anyways, it seems to me the whole point of this thread is to ensure that the flying done by GoJet or whatever it is called is done by pilots on the TSA seniority list. That the scope of their contract is honored. I'm a 21 year old dummy, and I can see that.

As I have said previously, I will not accept a flight officer position at GoJet if 1.it comes to fruition, and 2. its pilots are not on the TSA seniority list. I will not risk my reputation and good name just to wear a uniform and tell people I fly a jet at the expense of my friends at colleagues at TSA.

Good day, Sir.

 

[Propsync]

The sad part about all of this is there will be enough interest from knobs who want to be 'cool' and fly these jets. Dude, 70 seats, awesome! Though technically not scabs, they are good enough to be called open sores or lesions. I don't have a fight here, but it seems Hulas needs to make a choice, fly bigger equipment with TSA ALPA pilots for U and drop the American stuff, or just be happy with what you're doing. The only thing I fear is TSA having to sell out somehow to prevent this. Down with HoJet.

 

[temcgrew]

you are saying the TSA union has no right to any flying by GoJet or any other carrier started by Trans States Airlines or Trans States Holdings (or whatever company its formed under).

YES; why do TSA pilots DESERVE to fly at GOJET when it is a seperate company? I hope the management will give us a shot, it would be a nice gesture (i'm not sure if I spelled that correctly, and I'm not gona check either)
but they don't have to.

That the scope of their contract is honored.

The scope of the contract cannot force gojet to hire trans states pilots

This word appears numerous times in the 4th post up from here. Due to my unfamiliarity with the definition I can't seem to translate the sentence as a result

I don't care.

 

[767200]

Plain And Simple:

-hulas Goes "around" The Scope Set By The Contract With Aa And Creates "go Jets"
-he Pays Year 1 For Everybody Making Him More Money
-why Not Just One Seniority List, With Union? The Union Told Hulas To Fukc Himself When After Negotiations For A 70 Seater Rates Were Agreed And It Was Time To Sign It "slipped" On The Contract That The Payrate Would Also Be For A 90 Seater.......
-after The Pilot Group Gave (right Or Wrong, With Or Without A Vote) A 2 Year Extension, They Come Up With This Bullsh1t
-they Won't Sign A Stament Saying That The 50 Seater Flying Will Stay At Tsa No Matter What. Just Think About It. In A Couple Of Years That Will Be A Key Point. They Can Say "we'll Tranfer All The Flying To Go Jets 'cause It's Cheaper)

Someone Needs To Put An End To This Crap Hulio Is Pulling Out Of His Hat

 

[210FR8DOG]

Thanks to the forward thinking of mainline United pilots GOAIR will have to vote on a union before it can operate as a United Express Carrier.

Where are you getting this info? I hope it's true but I would really like to know where you got this from.

 

[stillflyn]

UEJ500,

You seem to be part of the problem. How can you argue the fact that flying for GoJet does not harm the pilots at TSA. If there wern't people like you willing to go there we wouldn't be having this conversation and the pilots at TSA wouldn't be sweating their jobs.

Remember.... Freedom pilots arn't "SCABS" but their not a whole lot better then them.

Stop and think before you do something stupid.

Stillflyn

 

[nimtz]

YES; why do TSA pilots DESERVE to fly at GOJET when it is a seperate company? I hope the management will give us a shot, it would be a nice gesture (i'm not sure if I spelled that correctly, and I'm not gona check either)
but they don't have to.

The scope of the contract cannot force gojet to hire trans states pilots


I don't care.

I think those last three words sum up alot about the character of the individual we are dealing with here. My friend you reek of professionalism and for that you are credit to our craft. With your high intellect Hulas may personally offer you the chance to fly a 70 seater! BTW, how are you doing on that GED? Don't lose hope and remember to use the spellchecker if you get confused or as you would write confewsed.

 

[WhiteCloud]

UEJ500,

You seem to be part of the problem. How can you argue the fact that flying for GoJet does not harm the pilots at TSA. If there wern't people like you willing to go there we wouldn't be having this conversation and the pilots at TSA wouldn't be sweating their jobs.

What really harmed the pilot career was the outsourcing of jobs in the first place. First it's turbo props, then it's number of seats, then it's jets.........next it's DC9's or 737's. Next on the list will be the freight haulers. Why pay 200K to a pilot when there tons of furloughees willing to start at a new company for half that. Outsourcing is coming there too. TSA pilots are represented by ALPA. If ALPA (us?) allows it to happen then it's on us and not a rag tag bunch of new hire pilots.

 

[Dizel8]

Don't have a dog in this hunt, but I am sad to see, that some people do not get the clear intent of Uncle Hulio. Yes, he is starting Gojet to get around scope provisions set by AA, however, as far as I know, absolutely nothing says, that he cannot create another carrier, yet use the same pilots.

Heck, offer the 70 seaters to current pilots who wants it, use the same contract on either sides with a 70 seat payrate, if there isn't already one.

But that isn't what he wants, he wants another carrier so he can circumvent a contract and pay crappy wages on a larger plane.

Joining gojet technically does not make you a scab, but close enough to be considered "less than worthy". If you can live with this label, go ahead, join Gojet, just realize, that this will follow you for the rest of your career. I don't have much to do with hiring at my carrier, but I will do anything in my power, to make sure no gojet pilots ever sees the inside of our cockpit.

" not a rag tag bunch of new hire pilots."

Not entirely true, there is always an idiot willing to take your job and this isn't brain surgery, anyone joining gojet should be aware or should be educated of the implications. Your job is only to educate them and then if they are still to stupid, to show them the "respect" they deserve.

 

[theo]

Why is GoJet a way to get around the contract between TSA and ALPA? If Trans States Holdings were a party to the agreement wouldnt they be included in the language in the CBA? Are they included? How long has Holdings been around. I thought I read somewhere on this board that the Holdings company has been around for years? Could this have been an oversight on the part of your negotiating committee?

 

[Dizel8]

Good luck guarding against all entities in the contract and every little coprporate shenanigans.

Smells, walks, talks, by golly, it's a duck!

 

[labbats]

AA isn't the perfect company, but I think with this kind of treatment they'll wise up quick and drop Waterski sooner rather than later. At least I hope so.

Also, why isn't anyone upset that United is hurting this industry? I've seen more harm from them overall towards our careers since 9/11 than Mesa or anyone else. This most recent move is just unbelievable. Just look at what they are doing/have done to Air Wisconsin. And now they're pushing them out to accept flying from GoJets? Come on already.

*disclaimer* This is just my own opinion, I have no facts to back it up. *disclaimer*

 

[AAflyer]

There is no TSA holdings in existence. It will be created to be a parent of TSA airlines and GO jet.It will be owned by the same person. We cannot have a contract with non existing entity.We cannot file a grievance against non existing entity. However the argument is why is the new entity is being created and is it falling under previously signed contract. If company wins, then all you have to do to abrogate the contract is create another level of management ( with the same people) and call it a different airline. In theory any airline would be in danger. It would be impossible to prevent it with contract language. They would just create whatever it takes to avoid it. TSA airlines has a strong scope language, will it apply to parent company is for the court to decide.

Strong Scope language? That is an oxymoron. In case you hadn't noticed how the boys at the legacies are consistantly getting their scope clauses circumnavigated what would make you think you will be any safer?

You know what one of the first lines in our contract and scope clause says. "All flying for American Airlines" will be performed by American pilots on the AMerican seniority list. What a joke.

Becarefule all, we are headed into new territory!! Mangament will scope your A$$ in a heartbeat if they can do it cheaper, and we all see there are hords of pilots that will do it cheaper than you do it.

Respectfully,
AA

 

[Dizel8]

Also, why isn't anyone upset that United is hurting this industry? I've seen more harm from them overall towards our careers since 9/11 than Mesa or anyone else. This most recent move is just unbelievable. Just look at what they are doing/have done to Air Wisconsin. And now they're pushing them out to accept flying from GoJets? Come on already.

I doubt very much, that anyone asked the UAL pilot about this. The UAL pilots are trying the hardest they can, to stay above water and not give another inch, unless it becomes painfully obvious, that the writing is on the wall.

I don't work at UAL, I work for a competitor and one that UAL management truly dislike, but my ire would never be with a guy providing for his family, as long as he does it the honorable way! The UAL pilots and the U pilots were handed a piece of crap, due to managements ineptness!

 

[Palmtree Pilot]

Hey Dizel8,

Thanks for your support! I hope that you are all watching the going ons over here just as we were all watching the going ons at Freedumb and Repooplic.

This is absolutely an attempt to circumvent our CBA and a tolerable 70 seat rate. Trans States Airlines, Inc. has been around quite some time. Trans States Holdings is our NEW parent company who is responsible for the creation of GoJets.

Trans States Airlines, Inc. Mangement has been coming to TSA ALPA since mid to late 2002 to discuss 70 rates, but have never been able to come together with an agreed rate. There is a current rate in our CBA; which basically states if the come on the a/c come on property then they would have to pay equal to industry avg. of all non wholey owned airlines with a current 70 or more seat scale. Our union has never given in to the low ball rates the company wants, and the pilot group is in total agreement, besides some newhires and slimeballs that are at every airline.

Wexford and Repooplic pulled their scam off and guess who is right behinde them?!?!

PtP


P.S. Our current CBA was ratified in 2000, and scope is a little outdated for the current craziness in the industry. Oh wait.... apparently nobodys scope is worth a sh!t anymore!

 

[Dizel8]

Hey Dizel8,

Thanks for your support! !

Anytime my friend. Like the saying goes: You come into my house to steal my stuff, oh no, I don't think so!