GM & Ford Flight Departments 86'd

[Regul8r]

Hey Reg,

Drink another cup of coffee and re-read. We are driving at the same point. driving/airlines = bad idea.

I agree, Spooling, I should have prefaced my post that I was expanding on yours.

I also agree with what others have said on here about the media being the real culprits who lit the wick on this one. In an ideal world, a politician could have thrown in back in the face of the media by offering a pragmatic explanation of the need for the jets and the benefits provided not only to the crews, but the direct and indirect support personnel.

 

[Mr.B]

Hey Reg,

Drink another cup of coffee and re-read. We are driving at the same point. driving/airlines = bad idea.

Driving/airlines=REALITY ....DB

These aholes should be riding Greyhound.

 

[Publishers]

The media is guilty of this???? Get a grip. These companies have huge PR departments and are supposed to know how to sell something, maybe even a car once in awhile. Someone should have been down at the airport throwing their bodies in front of the Gulfstream when these executives were departing.
It was dumb on any front for the perception is the reality. I was looking at buying a Saturn when my lease is up and I hear the same people say they are thinking of dropping the line. Makes me want to go out and get one right away.
Yes it is terrible that there is personal fall out from all this. A hell of a lot more people are impacted by what is going on than these pilots and their families. They at least have a transferable skill unlike many in that business.
The media, I don't think so , it was business suicide.

 

[Regul8r]

Driving/airlines=REALITY ....DB

These aholes should be riding Greyhound.

Wouldn't that drive their productivity lower?

 

[plunger]

If they hook up with a fractional, if they're worth their salt, they'll make taking the pilots part of the deal. Who knows. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. I know GM has 2 newhires, and I don't know if the female has Netjet mins. Still can't believe this has happened to them. Give it a couple years and they'll probably start off with a Hawker or something along those lines and the planes will be back; it's simply a matter of time.

Just goes to show how the industry works. I find it mind boggling that a new hire in one of these departments wouldn't have 2500hrs. I would imagine these they could fill a closet with resumes of people with 10's of thousands of hours with more types than you could count on both hands.

 

[LRvsH25B]

I may be biased, but the Big Three didn't have a plan to pay the government 8% on their money like the banks did.

You may be biased? Well what exactly is it going to take for you to get soundly on the biased bandwagon???? Considering where you work, it's my opinion you should get biased real quick and propa' like!

They just showed up in 3 Gulfstreams, sat there with blank faces when grilled by some clowns in congress, and eventually threw flight departments (and countless others really) under the bus. It showed the utter lack of leadership in the automakers, and it has quickly become corporate aviations worse day in history.

I'd like to thank these CEOs for that stellar performance.

I think talking about a lack of leadership may not be the best road to go down. What about Sandy? Sec. Rubin? Would you call them allowing Citi to get so tied up into the sub-prime market leadership? Afterall, it's what's going to potentially bring their company down. Sandy got the boot, I know, but where is your outrage there? Bob Rubin presided over the United States' longest period of sustained economic growth, so he knows what he is doing. It happened on his watch, so allowing this to happen to such a large company with so much on the line is sh!t that I'm paying for at this point. I know he was not the CEO, but look, like Colin Powell, if you don't like what's going on and you know it's wrong, resign, and Rubin didn't do that. Leadership, no, not all all. Pure Greed? You bet. And Citi is not alone in this, all the large banks did it, well, except for Bank of America. Their CEO was smart enough to stay away from it and fired several people for insisting BOA was missing out on a "niche" in the market. Trying to make money off of people who don't pay their bills in the 1st place is high risk, and failure is what these banks deserve for being so greedy; but you see, we can't let them fail because of the collateral damage that would cause. Their too big to fail, and that is the whole problem here.

The Big three have been broken for a long time, they also don't have trillions in assets like the banks. MANY banks have already been allowed to completely fail or forced into mergers by the Fed. I think much of the concern is what does Detroit have for a plan and why isn't Chpt 11 and restructuring an option?

You are right, 100%. The big 3 has been broken for quite some time. Arrogance. They "know" that car buyers want, so they don't need the input of people who actually buy the cars. That type of input is stuff only the Japs need.

Here is where you and I are going to start to differ; while the banks do have trillions in assets, the automakers do as well. Their workers. Let the Big 3 go out of business and when the unemployment lines overflow, you'll find out exactly what trillions in assets looks like. It'll cost us all. This bailout will look like a drop in the bucket compared to the economic impact failure of the 3 will bring with it. What is the plan of the Big 3 you ask? I'll ask what is Citi's plan? I've heard nothing. You see, the white collars didn't have to go before Congress and explain that. AIG and Citi have not had to disclose what their plan is to the Lawmakers. The trillions that the banks have in assets, well, this whole ordeal lets you know the banks need to be spilt up. They are too big to fail. They had trillions in assets, and they fukced that up. They don't deserve to be so big; they were too irresponsible (greedy) with the assets they did have. They pissed off the chance to be trusted with so much. I suspect Obama's administration will fix all of that.

As for Chapter 11/restructuring, you must be kidding. Chapter 11 would give them the right to no longer honor their contracts, including Warranties. A recent survey taken confirmed 80% of car buyers would not buy cars from a company in Bankruptcy. You wouln't either, nor would I. We'd be fools to do it. Fools. I can remember people saying the airlines would NEVER take the pensions of retired pilots. never say never Mr. UAL/DAL. Warranties would eventually be worthless and we both know that.

None of this is good for corporate aviation..I agree, the media has no clue...but the 2 (banks and auto makers) are not even remotely similar - as battered as both are right now.

Agreed, but while the industries are different, the solutions to helping them out of their current situations are very similar. If you take a shower before work, you're already well on your way to getting the help you need. If you have to take a shower when you get home from work, you're still waiting to hear if you are going to get a bailout.

So what are these 2 and likely other companies going to do? close departments, spend MORE money chartering or fractional, lay off more pilots, then eventually rebuild a department later on when public outcry ceases? - in the mean time many of us in aviation may likely just take it in the a$$....

Go ahead and bend all the way over so they can jam it all the way up there. Good luck to you out there as I suspect you're going to need it when some dipsh!t reporter gets bored enough and does a little digging.

Finally, I think I met you out in Driggs, ID back in '02. You dropped off Sec. Rubin who was going "fly fishing" with my boss at the time. The other pilot I was with didn't know who he was, so I had him pull out a $20, and told him the guy's signature down there is the guy he was shaking hands with 3 minutes ago. He was pretty impressed at that point.

Seriously, hope this all pans out well for you.

 

[icefr8dawg]

And the irony in it all, they went from 91 dept to charter clients now. The only thing that's going to change is the asset side of the balance sheet folks. Shame that the cost was two entire flight departments.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You may have the wrong guy/department in mind, and I have never been to Driggs....PM and I'd be happy to share further, off the public board.

anyhow - you can certainly see AIG/CITI/JPMC/BOA etc plans in detail - just google them. Nobody who has gotten (been asked to take) TARP money is under some secret cloak. Money is not being given out to pay for retirees health care or to fund a few more months of a dead product line, its being given out to try and get the credit markets unfrozen (the root of issues now?)

My point only was that there is a huge difference between a loan which makes the gvt (you?) 8% interest and eventually preferred stock in a company as opposed to a company looking for 3 more months worth of union payrolls all the while they cant move product - largely because the credit market is frozen.

I cant defend any CEO in this country, nor any bank, nor any 40K/yr worker with a 400K balloon mortgage and a 60 inch plasma bought on home equity. Who is to blame? its easy to point at the CEO who rides in "luxury" I guess. Whats the flavor of "greed" (as you said often)...is it the perks of being a CEO or is it greed to have a house, car, and TV you cant afford?

People are walking away and stiffing banks left and right on houses, cars, and credit cards because they have no value in them, they didnt earn any of it. But the view is "I'll get back at that evil CEO who lent me money" "I dont ride in a private jet" - its a serious moral breakdown all around IMO.

Its gotta be "someone elses" fault.....that seems to be the flavor of the day on the nonstop breaking news networks....and contrary to what they say - I know where many of us work these are not just royal barges - but closely monitored and accounted for tools - and that seems to not get through to many out looking for someone to blame..

 

[SansPlane]

Truly moronic comments blaming the media. I mean truly “freaking” idiotic and uninformed comments. There were some pretty determined people who a little over 200 years ago thought this was important enough an issue to include it in a little document you may have heard of. A somewhat well known judge said it this way: “Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman.”

We can agree to disagree on many things but this is not one of them. And you are entrusted to fly? WOW! Surely you think the FAA could do a better job if no one was allowed to report or blog or post about them or their actions.

Now that I have taken a breath, this is not a defense of poor journalism but then again, who is the judge of that?

 

[SansPlane]

You are right, 100%. The big 3 has been broken for quite some time. Arrogance. They "know" that car buyers want, so they don't need the input of people who actually buy the cars. That type of input is stuff only the Japs need.

Not to be on LR’s back today but a guy by the name of Ford is credited with the following: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”