GM & Ford Flight Departments 86'd

[hooker]

I fear our goverment more and more everyday! God there stupid and obama too!

 

[Piper877]

I fear our goverment more and more everyday! God there stupid and obama too!

You certainly establish your own extreme intelligence by not knowing the difference between there and they're...well done.

 

[hooker]

uhh...Ya got me.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Only temporarily....

Folks, I'll break it to ya.

When you're asking for 25 billion, it's best to be a little humble and display a gesture of good will by riding in a hybrid and sheding the planes, for now. The media has for the moment put them in check, for ratings. Makes a great story.

Once that money gets earmarked for Detroit, the corporate jets WILL come back.


Guaranteed.


.

 

[gret]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Bizav Flight Departments Latest Casualty of Recession[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rodney Hamilton, the director and chief pilot of Ford’s now-defunct flight department, summed up the state of the industry yesterday in two words: “difficult times.” In the past week, General Motors and Ford Motor Company announced they were shutting their respective flight departments, and investors learned that Citigroup has put two of its jets–worth $30 million each–on the block. There are also reports that Lucent Technologies is trying to sell its two G450s. The Ford closure leaves 49 people–including 17 pilots and nine flight attendants–unemployed, and the company intends to sell the five aircraft in its fleet. GM fired 72 flight department employees, including 32 pilots, and plans to unload four of its seven jets. “I don’t think Ford Motor Company’s actions are threatening to the industry at large,” Hamilton told AIN. “I think what is threatening are the economic conditions. I believe that in better times this would not have happened.” NBAA president Ed Bolen, meanwhile, attributed the actions by Ford and GM to their “acute liquidity crisis…The fact that they are selling strategic assets, including airplanes, appears directly related to their particular liquidity challenge.”

[/FONT]

 

[satpak77]

all they had to do was airline up on their big day, tell the panel "uh, no we airlined sir" when asked "did you fly corporate jets" and BOOM, END OF FURTHER DISCUSSION.

Goes to show you how a bunch of lame brain MBAs got some (I know for a fact) much smarter pilots axed

 

[semperfido]

It's funny, I don't remember hearing anything about the jets belonging to "BIG BANKS" when they rolled into D.C. to accept their Bailout checks from Uncle Sugar. A bit ironic, don't you think?

 

[satpak77]

It's funny, I don't remember hearing anything about the jets belonging to "BIG BANKS" when they rolled into D.C. to accept their Bailout checks from Uncle Sugar. A bit ironic, don't you think?

I agree

 

[Fly91]

"Completely unnecessary?"

Is the flight dept. you fly for unnecessary too? Why is yours different?

GM doesn't need the most expensive Gulfstreams to fly around the domestic US. 100's of millions for planes, thats "uneccassary." The person I fly for has a foreign based company and MUST fly around the globe constantly, and only in one Gulfstream V.

Now while I don't agree with the 3 CEO's going into Congress unprepared, you cannot accurately argue that their flight depts serve no purpose. Explain to us how it makes more sense for a CEO who gets paid about $11,500 an hour to be stuck in a crappy hybrid SUV for a 525 mile drive.

Easy to explain this one.....CEO's make too much money. So Hybrids are just fine for them, they just don't think so. I bet they wished they took those Hybrids when they flew to Washington to ask for BILLIONS of our dollars.

instead of showing support, you revel in their misfortune and the fact they never saw it coming.

Not doing that at all, just saying I get pilots at such a good company "never saw this coming." If you want to make more out of that statement, knock yourself out.

They don't need a snobby shmuck to come online and brag about his severance package in front of their noses.

A severance package just means your a good business man and not just a good pilot. If all of them don't have severance from a place like GM, they really screwed the pooch on that one.
A friend of mine is getting let go from a Global job soon, he gets one years salary, $150,000. I would say he made a smart contract.

Everyone who reads more and more of your self-centered posts just come closer to the realization that you are the kind of person and pilot who does nothing for anyone else, everything for personal gain.

I tell it like it is, live with it. Or you can ignore my posts. Your choice.

How about you do everyone in the pilot community a giant favor, and just quit your job and take your shiny severance package?

When you quit a job you don't get your severance. Another pilot who didn't take Business 101, great!

Then one of the many pilots now on the street today that are actually deserving of a corporate pilot job will have their career placed back on track.

Don't get all teary eyed because pilots are on the streets, millions of people are losing their jobs everywhere, it sucks for everyone.
I'm deserving of my job, otherwise I wouldn't have it. You don't just send a resume in to this company and get a call back.

And BTW, I've received PM's from quite a few people here about help with job searches and I'm always trying to help out-of-work pilots get jobs and I have for a couple this year. So F$ck off if you don't think I care about pilots losing their jobs. My company is getting a Legacy and a GIV in February, I'll be bringing on 8 new pilots, 5 of them lost their jobs in the past 2 months. I also have 2 guys that I hardly know, interviewing with a Part 91 operator I do contract work for, I flew with them once each in the past month, both out-of-work, and I recommended to the aircraft owner to look at these guys.

So again, %$#^ off.

 

[Fly91]

Wow.

Couldn't have just simply said "sorry to hear" when about 150 people were just thrown out on the street in our business today?

"dont worry, they will be just fine, if not shame on them, huh?" - what? more bragging about your job? I never met someone with a great job who had to brag about it online. Have you?

The mentality level of some in this business never ceases to amaze me, and you're as low as it gets Fly91.

Nothing like kicking $hit in these guys faces on the very day they are out of what they likely thought was a lifetime job.

Read post #49, it goes for you too.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It's funny, I don't remember hearing anything about the jets belonging to "BIG BANKS" when they rolled into D.C. to accept their Bailout checks from Uncle Sugar. A bit ironic, don't you think?

Believe it or not, I know that at least two of the "big banks that rolled into DC" took the airlines that day - and sometimes do as DC is so close.

 

[BoilerUP]

GM doesn't need the most expensive Gulfstreams to fly around the domestic US. 100's of millions for planes, thats "unnecessary."

You do know that General Motors is a global corporation with manufacturing facilities in 35 countries and an annual revenue ($166.1B) that eclipses Citigroup ($27.41B), Wells Fargo ($32.46B), and Bank of America ($47.49B) combined, right???

Their full and partial holdings portfolio includes (among other things) the brands Holden in Australia, Opel in Europe, Daewoo in Korea, and the most popular automobiles sold in China...Buick. Locations of their manufacturing plants include the US, Canada, Mexico, Sweden, Poland, South Africa, Columbia, and others I'm too lazy to spend more time researching.

Yeah, a large cabin international bizjet is totally unnecessary for a company like that...

 

[semperfido]

Believe it or not, I know that at least two of the "big banks that rolled into DC" took the airlines that day - and sometimes do as DC is so close.

That is interesting, but I don't think JPM shutting down their Flt Ops and they took 55 Bill of taxpayer money. That is what I thought had a bit of irony. No uproar about that.

 

[waka]

I doubt production engineers use the corp jets....

I wouldn't be so sure about that...

All right... what do you got?

Ford has (had) 2 or 3 flights a week between DTW and SDF with a Fokker 70, often with production engineers.

 

[Raskal]

...GM doesn't need the most expensive Gulfstreams to fly around the domestic US. 100's of millions for planes, thats "uneccassary." The person I fly for has a foreign based company and MUST fly around the globe constantly, and only in one Gulfstream V.



Easy to explain this one.....CEO's make too much money. So Hybrids are just fine for them, they just don't think so. I bet they wished they took those Hybrids when they flew to Washington to ask for BILLIONS of our dollars...

The first part of your post is simply nowhere near the reality of GM's flight ops. International flying is an enormous part of what that department does/did. Their aircraft flew constantly and, from what I hear from the pilots I know, international was a majority of the G550s' loads. As someone else said, remember, GM is still the largest automaker on the planet, Toyota is still #2 with VW at #3. They sell more cars outside the US with huge ops in China, Australia and Europe. I would think that they have more justification for owning the G's than a very large majority of the typical owners.

As for the second part regarding the hybrids, I can only shake my head. As a corp pilot yourself you should know better than anyone the real reasons for the use of these aircraft, I can only conclude you're just trying to stir the pot for entertainment.

 

[xshuttlefa]

Unfortunately, this is all a PR move. Those not involved in aviation or who don't understand how upper level execs at big corporations work see these aircraft as an extravagence, not a necessity.

Two years ago, there was a large meeting of Verizon upper management and they all flew in to Pittsburgh. Must have been at least 5 Hawkers (memory fuzzy, could have been Challengers) at the FBO at my local field for 3 days straight, all registered to Verizon. Anyone REALLY happy with their cell phone or landline and what they pay for it?

Cars, like many businesses, are global products. There are parts from China in a US made Honda same as a Mexican made Ford or Canadian built Dodge. As well as parts from suppliers in the US, Canada, Poland, Germany,etc.

Now add in the foreign operations of Ford and GM, plus the foreign companies they own a portion of.The logistics of having to move top level people by any means other than corporate aircraft is just absurd.

But I'm preaching to the choir here. All the average person sees ( from the media), is " Companies in Danger of Failing", "Rick Wagoner made $$$$$ while you made 1/68th of that" and had THE NERVE to fly to Washington in a big private jet to ask for money, being fanned by beautiful women and drinking ambrosia. Combine that image with the fumbling of the execs to explain what they will do to change, not good.

Is something wrong with the manufacturers in Detroit? You bet. When GM and Toyota hold the same market share (approx. 20%) yet Toyota does it through 3 brands (Toyota, Lexus,Scion) and 1500 dealers while it takes GM 7 brands and 7000 dealers, there's a problem. Anyone ever hear of the UAW Job Bank? If ALPA had the same bargaining power as the UAW...well, maybe not the best example right now.

The UAW has held the cards for a long time over the Big Three and the Big Three agreed to pay for what the UAW wanted. Combine that with: an over-reliance on the past 10 years on high profit light trucks and SUVs (while neglecting the rest of the product line to the point of mediocracy at best) while the foreign companies kept all their products current throughout product line. It's no wonder we are at this point.


Apparently, it's time for the US domestic auto industry to get the same shake-up the domestic airline industry got, initially when giants like Eastern and Pan Am disappeared (That could never happen...) Couldn't happen at a worse time though and of course, it happened because it's a really bad time.

I'd buy a car tommorrow... if I had a job to pay for it. It probably wouldn't be domestic though.. D'oh!!

 

[BoilerUP]

Is something wrong with the manufacturers in Detroit? You bet. When GM and Toyota hold the same market share (approx. 20%) yet Toyota does it through 3 brands (Toyota, Lexus,Scion) and 1500 dealers while it takes GM 7 brands and 7000 dealers, there's a problem. Anyone ever hear of the UAW Job Bank? If ALPA had the same bargaining power as the UAW...well, maybe not the best example right now.

CNBC: UAW to Halt 'Jobs Bank'

 

[xshuttlefa]

That is interesting, but I don't think JPM shutting down their Flt Ops and they took 55 Bill of taxpayer money. That is what I thought had a bit of irony. No uproar about that.

Of course, because banks are banks. CARS are CARS. Banks are bought, sold,merged all the time and most of the time it's seamless. People see the 55 billion for JPM as keeping their money safe, what's left of it. Outrageous, sure. But necessary. And it is to some extent.

People see GM getting bailed out in the form of that POS 1995 Oldsmobile they had that was in the shop all the time and really went bad after the warranty was up. They see it in the Chrysler minivan that had three transmissions in it in 60k miles. They see it in the Ford Expedition they bought when gas was cheap and 12mpg was awful but doable. Then when gas went to $4.00+/gal., they went back to the Ford dealer to buy something more efficient and found they had nothing comparable in size but more efficient to sell and they owed much more then their trade was worth.

Cars are emotional, many of us interact more with our cars then with our money. For some the car takes ALL of the money, so who cares about investing?

 

[xshuttlefa]

CNBC: UAW to Halt 'Jobs Bank'

Yes, I know they are going to cut it. But if the current situation wasn't happening, it'd still be going strong.

My point was that what other occupation has or was ever able to negotiate something like that? And keep it going into the 21st century.

 

[BoilerUP]

My point was that what other occupation has or was ever able to negotiate something like that? And keep it going into the 21st century.

I dunno, not many?

Negotiation does involve two parties, though...