Giving up money and lifestyle ?

[spitfire1940]

ToIST,
I hear you loud and clear. But my advice would be that as you look for a liveable wage in aviation, don't limit your search to the regionals.

I'm also a career change guy (like bobbysamd, I'm coming out of journalism) and when i went into this, I was totally focused on the commuters. Of course, this was before 9-11 and I was drinking the Kit Darby Kool-aid. I thought I'd spend no more than five years at the commuter level and then make it to a major where all my dreams would come true.

Anyway, along the way, I've discovered there are lots of cool things to do in aviation aside from the 121 carriers. I also like instructing and, strangely, my commitment to aviation has gotten deeper since I've given up hope of ever flying a wide body.

The funnest flying you can do is in a Piper Cub, or a glider or a Pitts, and I agree with the guys who recommend getting a good-paying non-aviation job so you can afford a cool plane to fly in your leisure time.

But I still can't rid myself of the dream of making a living flying ... whether its in a Cub a King Air or a 757.

Good luck.

 

[Meatwhistle]

Don't. You'll be labled a "retread" and none of the young punks at the regionals will give you the respect you deserve. Drink a beer, think logically about it, then think about all the peanut butter sandwiches you could ever eat, no jelly because you won't be able to afford that, then smile real big and thank yourself for not wasting the remaining years of your life.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Club" member

[W]hy in the world would you want to go from 135 or corporate to a regional? i know guys at regionals who are trying to go corporate.

at age 35 maybe the best thing for FlyingtoIST is to make a career out of 135 or corporate, if he can find a good company.

Everyone has different goals. Some people, like me, would want to fly for the regionals. I did because I had two friends who did. One of whom I had known most of my life. He had a strange line, where he was scheduled some days and sat reserve on others, but he made decent money and had a lot of time off.

Corporate where I was situated sixteen years ago was about impossible. This was in Oklahoma, where the economy had been down for several years and there was little corporate flying. There was plenty of regional hiring during that boom, more companies to contact, and an overall better way to go.

I suggested that he get to something beyond flight instructing ASAP because that would make him part of the club, and thereby improve his chances with the regionals. The older you are, the harder it is to go from flight instructing directly to the regionals.

There's always going to be a downside to whatever job you have, in or out of aviation, but the deck is really stacked against you if you try the regionals over age 30 or at any time if you have a wife and family.

(emphasis added)

Nice to see that others are beginning to "get it."

(Note to self: Send back the AARP app that came in the mail the other day.)

 

[Timebuilder]

Keep your job.

Keep your family.

Keep your sanity.

Keep your self respect.

Keep your income.

Buy a plane. Fly for fun.

As long as you can fly when you want to, to where you want to, and for how long, and according to your good judgement, why would you want to give up that autonomy for little money and no respect, so someone else can skim off the cream?

When you are twenty, you can take a chance on an industry that is on the whole unprofitable for investors and difficult for employees in the hopes that you will be one of the few that can eke out a living. From personal experience, you may be much better off as a recreational pilot.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I can relate to this thread. I graduated college and was pursuing the civvie route in aviation when my wife got pregnant. My wife was just finishing up college when she got pregnant. We were living paycheck to paycheck even before she got pregnant. The only way we were getting all the bills paid was due to my Dad and brother. About one year before I graduated college my dad took me out and bought me a 2000 Toyota Tacoma Extra Cab 4x4 for a graduation present. He paid for it with cash and gave it to me. Well I got the bright idea of getting a Honda S 2000, shortly after trading a truck that was about a year old in on a car with a nice little payment I found out my wife was pregnant. I decided to enter the Army. I applied to and was accepted to Army OCS on flight contract. I ended up herniating a disc in my lower back and was given a medical discharge and some money (not much).

We were just starting to get on our feet with the military pay when I was discharged. (Our son is a few months older than a year at this point. I start freaking out not know what I was going to do for a living when I get back. I was dumb and got an Aviation Mang degree so I really didn't have any specific skill like a nurse or teaching degree to fall back on. We got another apartment and I decide to take a job doing something I dabbled in while going to college, selling cars.

I knew I was half way good at it. I went at it half azz for the few months in college that I did it and made over a grand a week. I got what I thought was a descent offer, they offered me a fleet sales job. The 1st month I was in this job (the month when many fleet and Car rental companies turn there fleets I made 10K plus. I was ecstatic. This was the type of money in the past it took 6 months or so to make. That just happened to be a great month because I haven't made that much in a month again (I have been averaging around 7K or so. ) I have since bought a house and we are almost debt free besides the mortgage.

Sorry to bore you people with this long drawn out story, but I broke the news to my wife that I want to fly airplanes again for a living. I miss it very bad. I have a true passion for aviation and flying like nothing else in life. I don't know if my wife felt more like crying or slapping me when I told here this. I make good money in the job I'm doing now but I don't get the same job satisfaction or pleasure I did from flying. I have actually starting off by doing freelance instruction on the my days off and in the afternoons after work. I have managed to FINALLY get in a saving mode. I think I'm going to approach this whole flying thing by doing the freelance thing for a few years and socking some bucks away while staying at my current job. I should average about 25 hours per month doing the freelance thing. I will give the aviation industry a few years recover and see where the chips fall in a few years although my inclination would be to take the 1st full time flying job I'm offered. If I were single I would that but I have a family to support adn that's really not an option for me now.

 

[jrod]

I was in the same situation you are in. After my full time IT job went away in Oct. 01, I did the independent consulting thing for about a year and a half while I got some flight experience. When the time came to move on up to professional flying, I leveraged my IT background to get in the door at a corporate flight department.

Now I work one or two days a week in the office for them doing IT, and fly two or three. It's a great deal for them b/c they get more productivity out of me, while I get to keep current in both fields and make a few more bucks than the average Citation F/O.

Until this industry settles down a little, I wouldn't suggest that anyone jump in too deep. Maybe try the freight thing for awhile and then do what I did. I can't imagine a better way to go. Plus, your age will actually be an attribute trying to get in at a corp. Most CEO's don't like a youngin' like myself in the cockpit. I just got lucky to find one that didn't mind.

First rule in professional flying: ALWAYS have an out.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I just turned 28 last motn so I still have some time to let things fall into place. I'm not going to give up on my dream.

 

[Publishers]

Read

While I try to read many of these posts, the thing that gets me is the negativity of some and the light of others.

Not thirty minutes ago at our FBO, I was talking to a pilot who flies a Beechcraft King Air about the profession. He was telling me how much fun it was and what a great job.

He flies about 40 hours a month. Flew down here this morning from Virgina and will spend the next two and a half days in Florida. They rent him a car and he has a nice hotel and per diem. He si a bit older now but he does not think he is suffering all that much. He does have to do his own flight plans and weather. Sometimes he even helps with a bag or two.

He thinks he has the best job in the world.

What I would say to you is there are a bunch of happy pilots out there who do not come on these boards. Most of the ones I meet these days, well frankly I do not hear much complaining at all.

You need to follow the path you think will make you happy. If you love IT, then keep doing it. If you are not thrilled about doing that, then change.

 

[bugchaser]

I too have noticed the large number of negative comments anytime someone asks for advice. If all you guys really feel that your career is so bad, why do you stay with it? Why don't you switch careers and make enough money to buy an airplane for fun? I'm guessing that the answer is that you keep flying because you have a real love for it. Now, before you guys start casting stones, I have been flying airplanes for most of my adult life and have been through enough ups and downs to last a lifetime. One thing that has always remained steady is the enjoyment and satisfaction that comes from flying. There have been periods that I have had to take jobs outside of flying in order to feed the family. All in all, flying has allowed me to have a decent lifestyle while doing something that I love. Believe me, there are many many pilots out there who love their jobs. If you really want to do this, jump in and give it a try. If it doesn't work out you can always go back to your other career. If you never pursue your dreams you will always wonder what could have been. What's important is that you be realistic about things and like someone else said keep a backup plan.

 

[momshome]

Oh the big question!!! I ask myself every day what to do next. I love flying and never could see myself doing anything else for work... then 9/11 happened and the everything changed. After 14 years in the industry I was pretty close to the"dream" job, but am now back square one. Seniority is everything, so if your laid off from somewhere and go to work at a new company you could very well be an FO flying with a Captain that was your student at some point. And your back to making first year fo pay.Its such a gamble. My husband put aside his career to move around with me because my future seemed much more promising. So now I have two children, and we have nothing, and I feel like I'm being stupid and somewhat selfish if I don't consider some other career options.
So I guess I would agree with a lot of people by saying that your probably better off keeping what you have, and flying for fun. I don't regret my career choices up to this point. I've had lots of fun and worked with some of the best people, but times have changed, and you just never know whats going to happen tomorrow.

 

[captainv]

it's a decision we each have to make.

like several others, i got a journalism degree in college. i worked at a paper for 4.5 years before going into aviation full-time. i'd always wanted to fly, but being an airline pilot was a dream, and i thought it'd stay that way. getting my PPL only whetted my appetite. i realized i'd always regret it if i didn't go after aviation with everything i had.

my take is: find something you love to do and get a job doing it. there's a million avenues to take in aviation, and only you know, or will know, what's right for you. i know pilots that have turned down numerous bizjet jobs to fly night freight in C-310s. Corporate guys that would be miserable in an airline cockpit. CFIs that were meant to teach pilots the rest of their lives. Some chase money, some opt for QOL. Do what's right for you.

i also know guys who decided in high school - hmm, i want to make a lot of money. I'll study law/medicine/business to make that happen. a few made it big. They're now rich. Are they happy? I hope so.

clearly i'm not in it for the money - i once flew a billionaire around, and he is hands-down the most miserable, unhappy person i've ever met in my life... i do it because i love it. maybe one day the industry will kick me where it hurts. i've seen it happen to quite a few friends already in finance, business, medicine, even teaching. few careers are immune.

i hear a lot of "i should've gotten in to medicine" on threads detailing our industry's woes. yeah, like becoming a doc of any kind, much less a surgeon, is simply a decision followed by 10 years of school. i know tons of medical people, and my life as a 2nd-year FO at a regional is rather similar to theirs in terms of low pay/strange and long work hours/years and years of sacrifices. try raising a family as a resident.

the grass is always greener. life will crap on you at times no matter what you do, so you might as well enjoy the job. i would tell aspiring pilots that now is the time to get their ratings and their hours. aviation has had a bad stretch the last few years. but it'll get better. then worse. then better. then worse...

Do what's right for you.

--the Tao according to V

 

[FlyingToIST]

Once again, thanks for the replies.
To give you an insight, I was in Vegas last week for a conference, and that lead to a 7 week contract that would enable me to get paid more than a year salary of a regional F/O.

But, I always wanted to fly, and contrary to what most CFIs believe the most enjoyable part of flying for me is teaching.

So, despite the high insurance rates, low customer demand, etc. etc. I decided to follow up with my dream that I have been workin on a side for last 2 yrs: establish a flight school.

I have worked as a CFI both part and full time and I have seen lotsa bad and good apples. Even though the economy is bad, I think there is market for the people who want to learn to fly.

I had my eye on for this airport for last 2 years and I am biting the bullet and getting my feet wet. So there will be lotsa weeks where I will be in the client site doing IT stuff and flying on the weekends.

I am not expecting to make money on this to start out with, but if I can get to teach people how to fly, get paid to do it, and give some CFI the opportunity to build some experience, why not get into it..

I will keep you all posted..

 

[4fanman]

FlyingToIST...

Good luck with the school and do keep us posted. I am interested in hearing about it becuase it is something that I too would like to try. There is an airport near me that is in need of a flight school and I would like to start one there.

I walked away from Mesaba after almost 5 years and it was one of the best decisions I have made recently, but that's another story. Now I am flying single pilot freight/charter to pay the bills and keep current until I figure out what to do.

 

[j328driver]

WOW!

After reading some of these posts, I feel sooooooo not worthy.

In late 1993, at age 30, I came to the conclusion that flying for fun and working the day job just wasn't going to scratch the itch. After taking a voluntary separation bonus from one of our esteeemed military services (not a pilot), I set off to become a pilot at a major airline.

I've worked nearly every day since. If I wasn't flying (instructing, check hauling, regional), I was working side jobs to provide for our growing family (5 total now). I kept 3 people alive for almost a year and a half making $410 every other week from the airline (qualified for and accepted public assistance) and $7/hr off the rent working side jobs for the landlord. I've yet to make more than $55K/yr ever in my life. We've averted divorce once or twice (barely), and we currently drive used cars with 150Kmi & 200Kmi. We've taken 2 vacations in our lives (road trips to a local resort area, off season, w/kids). The only house we could afford was an 85 year old former church/chapel that I've converted into a single level ranch home in a modest neighborhood. We don't own most of our house, and we're floating $$ on credit cards.

All that, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I've enjoyed every job that I've had since I left the service. I've loved flying every airplane that I've ever flown. I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I've never not wanted to go to work since I switched careers. I used to hate the thought of having to get out of bed in the morning in my previous lives. Granted, I was fortunate to have hit the industry at the most opportune time and not (knock on wood) had to endure a furlough, (yet).

As mentioned in earlier posts, I firmly believe that you truly have to have a deep in the blood passion for this job to be able to get yourself through the crappy times and enjoy the good stuff.

I think to some degree we all have made significant sacrifices to get to where we are and/or where we're going. Those are the folks I want sittin' up front with me!

Good Luck.

 

[AA717driver]

I've given the same answer before, if this is what you REALLY want to do(you know, can't live without it, wanted to do it since you were 5 years old...) then do it.

If you want to do it, AND want to stay married, try this-- PM me and some others who may volunteer to let your wife talk to our wives and see how this plays on the other side of the bed. THAT may give you the direction you need.

BTW, I've been telling people that the only career choice that is LESS stable than the airlines is IT!
Talk about no job security!

Give me a call. My wife and I have been together since I was tying down Cherokees and spooning oil into Mooneys that some son of a bi... Well, that's another story .TC