Getting current

[Gulfstream 200]

I personally dont know of one corporate pilot who has had to pay for their training - initial or recurrent - in the last 3 years (minimum)

I would not say its the norm by any means.

And yes, I agree, hiring is VERY slow to nonexistant right now. Even if there is a need, budgets are often frozen.

Hopefully that ends soon....until then its a great time to network and be ready.

 

[Fly91]

I personally dont know of one corporate pilot who has had to pay for their training - initial or recurrent - in the last 3 years (minimum)

I really don't either, mostly people from here asking if they should do it. And the companies I know around here that will not pay for training anymore.

But I, like you, are in the 91 world, where unless the company is a joke, training is 100% paid for.

I do know about 5 guys who did pay for types to get into the contract world this year. GV/G550's for all of them.

 

[NCherches]

Just please don't use Flight Simulator X

 

[Capt1124]

If you want extra sim time Simcom should be able to arrange it for you for a reasonable amount. Flight Safety apparently won't do this, Simuflite will, I don't know about Simcom but I don't see why they wouldn't.

 

[Pilot_Ryan]

This is not a PFT situation in my view. I am compensated for recurrent in the form of bonuses throughout the year. Thus, if I leave in the midst of a one year rotation, the company has 'protected' their investment in training. It's really no different than signing a contract and agreeing to be on the hook for the cost of training. I really have no problem with that, it's a fair arrangement, and it's also just the way it is at present.

 

[Gear Up!]

fly91, I agree with you on the comments made on guys leaving a company after getting a type rating. In which makes companies have training agreements. My company never had one until 2 years ago when a couple "super stars" left 2 months after gettting a type rating. Thanks to those.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

fly91, I agree with you on the comments made on guys leaving a company after getting a type rating. In which makes companies have training agreements. My company never had one until 2 years ago when a couple "super stars" left 2 months after gettting a type rating. Thanks to those.

Why did they leave?

 

[Fly91]

Why did they leave?

Unless the Chief Pilot kicked them in the nuts every morning and before each flight, or if an employment contract was breached by the company,
they need to fulfill at least 12 months of work beyond type school.

If they don't, they're scumbag pilots.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Unless the Chief Pilot kicked them in the nuts every morning and before each flight, or if an employment contract was breached by the company,
they need to fulfill at least 12 months of work beyond type school.

If they don't, they're scumbag pilots.

well...OK...

Or what if they got an offer for 50K more?

I never heard of this magic 12 month type commitment? Did you sign or promise (your word) - thats another story....but other than that..no way!

say NO to moving you and your family up 50K just to show loyalty to your current employer? Only a fool would. Theres no loyalty on either end - its just a job. One cannot time opportunities, and you shouldn't bat an eye when one is presented.

There's often a reason some places have very high turnover and resort to low-end tactics like training contracts and PFT.

Some jobs are meant to be stepping stones, thats in every industry. You owe no more than 2 weeks notice and a "Thank You", continue this without guilt until you get to where YOU and your family need to be.

I'd say its far more than "scumbag pilots".....more likely...."scumbag employers"

 

[Fly91]

well...OK...

Or what if they got an offer for 50K more?

The cost of the type/recurrent is usually divided by 12 months, both 91 and 135 ops do this. If a pilot leaves before 12 months they need to pay the company back the prorated amount. If they stay for 2 months, they owe 10 months, simple as that.

And who was it that made it possible for that pilot to get that better job making 50K more, yup, the company who typed him. If he's getting an extra $50,000, he can pay off his training and still make more for the year. Then every year after that he banks an extra $50,000. OR...if he's really so great, the new company can pay off his balance. This goes on too. Sounds fair to me.

Another one for you. My "other" Global pilot friend is not allowed to do contract flying because they pay for his training. No sh1t. Its just how the owner is. I've heard of many owners that have that rule for their pilots. But he makes 150K with a nice bonus and fly's 8 days a mointh, so he's not real pissed. Just an example for ya how things are, at least in this area.

I never heard of this magic 12 month type commitment?

You have got to be kidding me? Just about every company around here requires it in the training contracts, both Part 91 and 135 companies. Its almost industry standard now. My friends all across the country have done the same thing.

Also, my friend is instructing at Simuflite on the Challenger 300, his contract is over a 2-year period. He must pay if he leaves, or have the new company he goes to buy out the training contract, either way. BUT....Simuflite and other smart companies do things a bit different, they actually give you a "personal loan" and make you sign a promissory note. There is no walking away from that. They can get immediate wage garnishment against you and a judgement. This is the new way that companies are doing things, if they're smart.

say NO to moving you and your family up 50K just to show loyalty to your current employer? Only a fool would. Theres no loyalty on either end - its just a job. One cannot time opportunities, and you shouldn't bat an eye when one is presented.

I agree, take the better paying job, but the pilot needs to pay the prorated amount if he leaves or have the new company buy out the contract. He can still pay it off monthly.

There's often a reason some places have very high turnover and resort to low-end tactics like training contracts and PFT.

Well, than the pilot should not go there if he can't do the time. This is why companies don't pay for types anymore, pilots leaving on them after they spent $20,000-$50,000 on them. Its theft, plain and simple. Its just hard to enforce a verbal contract.

And dont get me wrong, not 100% of companies do the contract thing, just the ones that don't want to literally toss $40,000 in the garbage.....or the ones like I work for and maybe you, companies that hire 100% within and they know exactly what they are getting in a pilot and know they will not be left hanging in the breeze.

Some jobs are meant to be stepping stones, thats in every industry. You owe no more than 2 weeks notice and a "Thank You", continue this without guilt until you get to where YOU and your family need to be.

If its a stepping stone, then you can't write your own ticket yet, do the time and be fair to the "stepping stone". After all, its the "stepping stone" that is advancing your career and making you more marketable and experienced.

I know of a handful of pilots that will never get a job down here in this area because they've done just this to companies. No different than a blacklist. Case in point: A big 91 op down here, I know a guy that got hired, went to Global school and left after 1 month to fly another Global. He knew it all along, the new company said to come back already typed and you have the job. They made him sign a training contract prorated as I explained above. But the Supreme Court in Florida has ruled that companies cannot collect on a pilot training contract. First off, that guy will never get hired with anyone around here unless he pays for his first year of training by himself for a new type or his next recurrent in the Global. He better stay where he is. Everyone knows him. But what this loser will probably do is just go to a fresh recurrent, screwing his current company, then immediately leave to another job if he finds one. And he is looking right now, he hates where he is. Good luck. My company is adding 2 jets in February, a Legacy and a GIV. He's knows better than to even waste his time asking me to get him in, which I could. He knows I can't because people know him already as a scumbag. WHY wouldn't I try anyway???? Because hell if I want to bring someone on that pulls that sh1t and makes me look bad. I wouldn't do it if he was literally living out of his car. Not worth the risk in this tiny tiny, tight nit industry.

I'd say its far more than "scumbag pilots".....more likely...."scumbag employers"

You've been at your job too long, you're not in the loop how things are done now, regarding this subject.

As I've labored to say in many posts, companies all over south Florida for years and years (none of them scumbag companies) always paid for initial and recurrent training for new hires, even if they didn't know the guy at all. Over the past 5-6 years they are all slowly stopping, and most have simply stopped. EDIT: "company-X" down here used to be known as the "type-rating" factory for BBJ, Global and Challenger 604. They will not type anyone anymore, the party is over.

Good luck finding an ad on climbto350.com anymore that doesn't say, "you must be current with at least 6 months left from your last PC or willing to pay for your own training." Its all you see anymore. I saw one job 2 weeks ago, out of Berlin, that said for the right pilot with the right total time and PIC jet time, we'll type you. I almost fell off my chair. But it was a company worth about $1 billion and they build corporate jets as well as own their own simulators in Dallas, if you know who I mean.

Companies have big bucks, yes, but to 100% toss 10's of thousands in the garbage, thats just bad business and they didn't get rich throwing money in the garbage, they just are not willing to do it anymore. And I'm 100% with them. I tell owners, D.O.'s and Chief Pilots all the time to make them sign a personal loan with a promissory note instead of just a stupid contract. People are slowly catching on. Pilots getting certain free type ratings just had their entire lives made for them by a company, now they're gonna leave them hanging. How the hell can anyone think thats OK to do. I'll tell ya who, friggin pilots who think they're entitled, thats who.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You relay South Florida and tales of these so called "industry normal" training contracts (?) and "12 month commitments" - sounds kinda like slavery, not at will employment.

Do those rich owners guarantee us scumbag pilots year by year employment since they expect yearly commitments from Initial and maybe recurrents? -- downright comical and borderline bizarre.

We don't hire solely from within (it helps), we don't pay top dollar (for the most part) but we do interview thoroughly and work very hard to provide pilots high QOL. Turnover is average. 3 pilots have left in 3 years (out of 18) One was encouraged to leave, one was a surprise, one was not. Whatever.

Never has a training contract ever been considered - and never will if I have say. Training contracts say "look out" to perspective employees. Our strategy for retention? -- We lay out the job very openly during the extensive interview - you know what you're getting into.

Sign personal loans for school? - c'mon! - good luck with quality candidates at those jobs...:laugh: training contracts? - do these employers put 12 months of salary in escrow for me for the day their beloved hedge fund blows up? - nah, Id get 2 weeks notice...expect the same from me.

Let me ask (I really have no idea) - What Fortune 10, 50, 100, etc companies have training contracts?

 

[Fly91]

You relay South Florida and tales of these so called "industry normal" training contracts (?) and "12 month commitments" - sounds kinda like slavery, not at will employment.

There's no other industry/occupation that requires employers to spend 10's of thousands of $$$ on their employees each year, in addition to all the other required expenses. Its different. Its more like "lucky" to work. What if pilots had to pay for training out of our pay each year, that would suck but we would all find a way and QOL would be alot different.

Do those rich owners guarantee us scumbag pilots year by year employment since they expect yearly commitments from Initial and maybe recurrents? -- downright comical and borderline bizarre.

No. Training contracts do not have to be paid back if the company folds the flight department and lays off the pilots. At least a smart pilot would make sure thats in the contract.

Never has a training contract ever been considered - and never will if I have say. Training contracts say "look out" to perspective employees. Our strategy for retention? -- We lay out the job very openly during the extensive interview - you know what you're getting into.

Sign personal loans for school? - c'mon! - good luck with quality candidates at those jobs...:laugh:

Let me ask (I really have no idea) - What Fortune 10, 50, 100, etc companies have training contracts?

Its mostly 135 ops and smaller 91 ops that do this. Not F100 ops.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, it is NOT done at the very good 91 companies. I've said that over and over. If my company wasn't a foreign company it would be an F100 company, they never did training contracts either because they hire smartly. Noone has left here in 8 years. CP has been there 20 years. Flight department has been around for 33 years. No need for training contracts when you are a rock solid company who does it right.

BTW, Simuflite in Morristown.....they make their new hire instructors sign them, a LOAN. My friend is one of them. And companies down here are starting to do it more and more.

Don't think things aren't so just because you haven't heard of them. Ask around a little bit, you'll learn something new about the industry that you're in.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I question your friends sanity for even considering working for simuflite MMU - nevermind signing any agreement, contract, loan, etc. Does he know what he's getting into up here?

I know some of their former and current instructors - none of which would have signed any "loan" of any sort.

What do they sign a loan for? - the opportunity to sit in on CAE's own class in DFW for a month and use CAE's own instructors to get sim type ratings?

Now that downright funny! - there's a reason the place cant keep instructors at decent 6 figure salaries.

Loan, Contract, whatever you call it -- I'd walk from it every time. Any mention of the like sends up a big red "this place sucks and we need to trap you" flag....

I guess this horse is dead enough.

 

[Fly91]

I question your friends sanity for even considering working for simuflite MMU - nevermind signing any agreement, contract, loan, etc. Does he know what he's getting into up here?

Well, before he got done with training at CAE to start instructing, he was offered a pretty kickass 91 job out of Russia. They offered to pay off his training contract if he excepted. The guy is an ex-TWA guy and has more time then you'll ever have, he just needed a way to get into the corporate world. He doesn't strive to be a friggin instructor.

Everyone has their own reasons for doing things, but he's not gonna screw CAE out of the training they gave him and type-rating they gave him on the CH 300. He will have to pay them back if he leaves.

What do they sign a loan for? - the opportunity to sit in on CAE's own class in DFW for a month and use CAE's own instructors to get sim type ratings?

Yes, times are tough, pilots are doing what they have to do to keep working.
Not everyone is GOD like you.

Loan, Contract, whatever you call it -- I'd walk from it every time. Any mention of the like sends up a big red "this place sucks and we need to trap you" flag....

Just hope you stay where you are and don't run into having to look for a job and doing what it takes to get back to work.

I guess this horse is dead enough.

Guys like you can't let things die. If you haven't done it, if you haven't thought of it, if you haven't experienced it or you haven't heard of it............its just not the truth.

Thats pretty f'ed up. You obviously have alot of corporate experience at your current job and I'm sure you have alot of flight experience......but you're kind of a dick sometimes. You learned something tonight about how companies are starting to do things with respect to training new hires. I think you're just pissed that you actually learned something instead of giving someone some info.

Thats how the world goes round.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Pay back CAE for the type they "gave him".....downright comicial again! - How much does CAE pay for that inhouse type by thier own instructors? Why cant they find any corporate guys to work there and have to hire your buddy? -- because word is out - the job sucks. It dosen't have to be, but its a known item now. Maybe it is changing...they say so...

Are companies not expected to train employees anymore? They will work him 80hrs a week, is that not enough?

I have learned nothing of how companies are "starting to do things" - I always knew the South Florida aviation scene generally sucks. You verify that all the time with all the talk of great gigs in Russia and India, personal loans, "scumbag pilots" etc. To each his own, but none sound like ideal corporate job scenarios.

Sorry, but your posting on the corporate board - training contracts and personal loans just are NOT the NORM as you keep telling us. God? just because I refuse to take out a personal friggin' loan for a job offer flying some foreign billionaire around....not happening...Loans for a job? - yeah, you bet your ass Im out of touch with that part of this industry.

You do know there is a "Charter" forum here also?

Oh, I forgot - you are right. You told us in Post #39, you are right.

 

[semperfido]

yeah, the "corporate" they describe is NOT the "corporate" I have experienced over the years. I don't know a soul that has ever paid for, or signed anything for training. FL is apparently the bottom of the corporate barrel.

 

[Fly91]

yeah, the "corporate" they describe is NOT the "corporate" I have experienced over the years. I don't know a soul that has ever paid for, or signed anything for training. FL is apparently the bottom of the corporate barrel.

The best corporate jobs are down here in South Florida....and the worst corporate and 135 operations are here too.

 

[Gear Up!]

This is making my head hurt!!