gear up landings

[jsoceanlord]

i saw a ce 310 make a gear up landing on CNN the other night - i think it was in georgia.

it seems like the props are usually turning when people belly in. maybe they were just windmilling, but it seems easy to cut the mixture when you cross the threshold and save the engines; also landing on the grass seems better than the runway.

'just an observation

 

[Brett Hull]

I've heard that it's better to land on the hard runway. The sod balls up and causes more damage to the bottom of the airplane than skidding on the asphalt does.

If he forgets to put the gear down, he probably won't remember to pull the mixtures either.

 

[jlarocca]

gear up landing

I didn't see the 310 in Georgia but I have seen a 310 have the nose gear collapse after landing...that one he didn't see coming. As far as stopping the props and then positioning them to be horizontal by using the starter seems pretty tough. When doing my MEI training I had the opportunity to attempt to position the prop blades horizontal after a feather and it was fairly difficult to do. I can't imagine how hard it would be to try and do that with both engines and then perform a power off gear up landing. As far as landing on a rwy or on the grass next to the rwy I always teach my students that each situation is unique but that pavement comes before grass when making that decision. The reason being that you never see aircraft dig into pavement and flip over, on grass that is something that can happen every time, especially if the approach and touchdown is not executed perfectly. Sure pavement provides sparks but you know it is a wide SMOOTH surface with no obstructions or depressions in it which will allow for a more gentle decelleration.

 

[shamrock]

The incident you saw was at Falcon Field, Peachtree City, GA. Don't know what the cause was but they had news helicopters around so it wasn't a "forgot to put the gear down" thing. The guy did a great job.

To be honest, if I were in that situation saving the engines wouldn't be very high on my list of priorities. I'd be more interested in ensuring that everyone in the plane walks away, and if having the engines allowed me more control through the flare and touchdown I would leave them running. Let the insurance take care of the engines.

This kind of reminds me of the video I saw a while back of a T-tailed Arrow (I think) with one main gear that was hung up and wouldn't come down. The guy did a few low, slow passes down the runway at about 10 feet while some other guys drove down the runway under the plane in a car or pickup truck and tried to physically pull the gear down. After a few attempts they were successful and the pilot landed without any further incident or damage. They were called brave, courageous, and heros and made it on to shows like Real TV. I personally thought it was on of the stupidest things I've ever seen someone do. Everything turned out fine but how would it have looked if this pilot misjudged his altitude and pancaked down on the pickup killing everybody in it and maybe himself just to "save the airplane"? I think any aviation insurance company would much rather pay 10's of thousands of dollars to repair an airplane than millions of dollars to the families of the dead after a stunt like this.

Save yourself and your pax first using whatever means necessary THEN worry about the airplane.

 

[Timebuilder]

it seems easy to cut the mixture when you cross the threshold and save the engines; also landing on the grass seems better than the runway.

You might get the engines to stop turning, but that doesn't mean that you are "saving" them. Any strike of the prop will be cause for a teardown.

Land on the hard runway. Make as normal an approach as possible, and hold the nose up as long as possible. Follow the POH procedure for the emergency landing.

I saw the film clip on TV. A great job. I noticed he was collected enough to have the door popped open. Well done.

A normal operations note to new multi pilots: exit the runway, and THINK before you move any handles. If you are transitioning from a Piper to a Beech, realize that many of these airplanes have the flap and gear handles in OPPOSITE positions. Two weeks ago, at Allentown, a pilot had his beautiful Baron out for a ride. Monday morning, I found the plane in the hangar with six bent prop tips and belly damage. The pilot had put the gear up, according to what I was told, as he exited the runway. Ouch.

 

[falcondriver]

I've landed a 172rg with the nose gear stuck. I took the plane up to 4000ft right above the airport incase I couldn't get it re started and shut down the engine. We were curious if I could get the prop to stop turning. It wouldn't stop. I landed it on a hard runway according to the POH and had no problems.
FD

 

[2000flyer]

I agree with Shamrock, there are more important things to consider besides saving the engines. How to more complicate a potential dangerous sitation than giving yourself another distraction during a critical phase of flight.

I think the pilot did a great job and should be so commended!

As far as landing on the grass you have more "what-ifs" to consider. Is the grass long? Wet? Soggy? I'd rather take the hard concrete and lessen my risk of having part of the plane dig into the dirt and possibily flipping me over.

My $0.02 for what it's worth.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[AirDoc]

I used to work for a major insurance company as and Insurance Adjuster/Accident Investigator. In the grand scheme of things, props, TDIs, and metal work is cheap compared to third party Bodily Injury claims, or the death of an insured.

Not that all Ins. Co's are (were) as good as ours was, but we never quibbled with a TDI (Tear Down Inspection) as we viewed this as cheap insurance. We found absolutely NO correlation between hidden damage inside the engine and the nature of the engine stoppage. We'd seen engines pretzel the props at full power with no damage and others barely nick the prop while the engine was off resulting in a cracked crank or bent prop flange.

"Saving the engines/aircraft" is a noble objective with numerous examples of a tragic outcome. There are many cases of loss of control while trying to "dress the props" where aircraft didn't make the runway.

I don't know of a single fatality related to a planned or unplanned gear-up landing in any type of aircraft. Pilots trying to fix a gear problem have resulted in mid-airs, structural failures of wings, fuel exhaustion, loss of control, etc. The L-1011 in the 'Glades and the UAL DC-8 in Portland happened as the crew was trying to "fix" a gear problem.

Modern airline CRM training uses these examples to teach the concepts of PF/PNF. The PF (Pilot Flying) is only responsible for keeping track of the aircraft and it's "normal" demands. The PNF (Pilot Not Flying) is tasked with running the checklist and handling the crisis.

As to the guy in GA. with the Cessna, that is what I'd consider a picture perfect emergency.

 

[starvingcfi]

that real tv video was awesome. incidentally, i actually met the guy that pulled the gear down. he's a skydiver over in deland, fl. not sure if he's an instructor or not. obviously didn't get into much of a conversation. i actually didn't even know that was the guy until we were walking away. the people i flew in with told me after the fact. can't remember the guy's name. oh well. that's my claim to fame. (that and meeting the warden from ernest goes to jail. hehe)


ok. anyway, why save the engines? you're gonna hit the props anyway. they're still gonna have to tear down the engines, right? i understand from a damage point of view. can't be good for an engine to stop so quickly, but that's what insurance is for. you're not gonna save yourself any hassle by pulling the mixtures, right? i would just ride it in. anyone else?

starvingcfi

 

[banned username 2]

I've landed a 172rg with the nose gear stuck. I took the plane up to 4000ft right above the airport incase I couldn't get it re started and shut down the engine. We were curious if I could get the prop to stop turning. It wouldn't stop. I landed it on a hard runway according to the POH and had no problems.
FD

In a 180HP Cessna 172 you had to get the plane basically to a stall in order to get the prop to stop.... Once the stall warning silenced it was eerily quiet...

 

[falcondriver]

That was a terrible sound. Complete silence and the prop just barely turning. I remember thinking this really s$$cks. I had my CFI two months and the nose gear won't come down.
All turned out ok. I remember my mom asking me if I had seen that plane on the news. She screamed and dropped the phone when I told her that was me.
Makes for a good story.....
FD

 

[Flying_Colors]

To be honest, if I were in that situation saving the engines wouldn't be very high on my list of priorities. I'd be more interested in ensuring that everyone in the plane walks away, and if having the engines allowed me more control through the flare and touchdown I would leave them running. Let the insurance take care of the engines.

Save yourself and your pax first using whatever means necessary THEN worry about the airplane.

I had to respond to this thread because this situation happened to me in a Cessna 320 about 10 years ago. The nosegear would not extend because of a mechanical problem. The emergency gear extension procedure didn't work. I didn't pull the mixtures until I was on the runway and I did not feather the props. At the time, I didn't have much time in the airplane, it was night, and I felt like I wanted the extra control. The props were bent and the engines needed to be inspected, but there wasn't any internal damage. I landed on the pavement, not the grass for the reasons other people have given. I think I would do it basically the same way in the same situation (hope lightning doesn't strike twice).

The one thing I didn't consider was that with no nosewheel, you have no nosewheel steering and I didn't want to use the brakes. Therefore, we veered off the runway slightly because we had a crosswind and the airplane weathervaned.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

It takes A LOT of power to taxi with the gear up!