Gear down 2 miles past GS

[satpak77]

Having an energized "hangar talk" with another guy and I need some horsepower/comments from the audience. Mind you, we are both ATPs.

We fly turbine jet and turboprop equipment in a corporate Part 91 environment.

Question: When is "correct" to put gear down on ILS?

My position: One dot above or as the GS is being intercepted, this is standard industry practice and advocated by Simuflite/FlightSafety, etc

His position: He likes to wait till about 2 miles AFTER GS intercept, to "keep the speed up". The other day he put gear down and had 2 green, and went missed, however by the time he realized this, the aircraft was likely physically inside the MAP on the particular approach in question.

AIM and TERPS state that obstruction clearance is predicated on the fact that the pilot goes Missed AT or BEFORE the MAP. This "old head" rarely reads the AIM and never seen a copy of TERPS in his entire life.

My argument: Once at GS intercept, there is no reason to keep the speed up at such a point that it precludes gear extension. In addition, any gear malfunctions you might have are easier to deal with if "caught" at GS, not on short final.

I have additional points ad nauseum but this guy is an "old head" and likes to keep the pot stirred. (Anyone out there worked with this guy at your company? I am sure a few exist)

Anyway, looking for additional comments.

No PMs please, feel free to post here.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

if he waits until short final to put the gear down when is the landing checklist getting done??

(my guess is its not) - or it is when it shouldn't be. 1-2 mile final is not the time to have one head inside reading a checklist...

gear down at glideslope interception (at the latest) I personally prefer to be fully configured there if feasible...why not?

cant think of any reason why not to...how fast you gotta go on final??? maybe he thinks he is saving some time or gas by doing this...or maybe he is just an incident waiting to happen...

this guy is a jacka$$, meant to fly on his own somewhere....would not fit in in many large corporate operations.

 

[Astra Guy]

Party line and probably for good reason, supports your position. One dot above generally results in the gear being extended at GS intercept. If your partner wants to fly faster than the predicated speed he should remain within the gear speed limitations. If you are going down to minimums the capability to react to a missed is predicated upon being on profile at the MAP.

Old heads are often not the best heads. Because his method has worked 1,000 times before does not mean that he can react to an abnormal when inside the OM.

Same old addage applies. Never allow a lack of judgement require extraordinary skill to survive. Fly the profile, fly the profile, and yes...fly the profile.

This coming from an "old head."

 

[350DRIVER]

GS intercept....


Close in to the runway all checklists should be done.


3 5 0

 

[sabreliner]

Depends on where you intercept the GS. At major airports you often intercept the GS well outside the marker. Appch needs you to keep moving to keep the flow of traffic smooth, often 180 to the marker. Putting the gear down too early is therefore unfeasible. I try to have the gear coming out at the marker so that we can get configured and get all the checklists done before the last few hundred feet when things tend to get busy.

Don't want to put it down too late but putting it down at GS intercept or before isn't always the best answer either.

 

[mckpickle]

For our ops we have to be configured by 1000 feet imc (wheels and flaps) and 500 Vmc. 121 Emb-145. FYI

 

[cherokee]

Keep the speed up? So let's say you fly the GS at 180 kts instead of 130 kts... on a typical approach (2 min) you will save all of...33.333333 seconds. Wow, the boss will be so impressed. If you actually think of how much time is actually saved I think most would come to the conclusion that it is better to be safer.

 

[Ted Striker]

I agree with you, but I think you mean below the glideslope for intercept. Where I work (121), we teach gear down at 1.5 dots below the glideslope, then final flaps at glideslope. Makes it very easy to be stabilized by 1000' AGL. Your friend's idea sounds nuts. Keeping speed up on an IMC approach in a turbojet is a recipe for disaster.

 

[cl-65link]

Somewhere in the 121 section of the regs, it says the airplane must be configured for landing no later than FAF inbound.

 

[starchkr]

Gear down a minimum of 1000' above airport elevation. Keep the speed up. Can't stand it when approach slows us to 170 20 miles from the airport because we are following a slotation or the like who is creeping down the ILS at minimum approach speed...especially when the weather is not anywhere near mins.

 

[Super 80]

As a 121 carrier, I have to go with our Operation Specifications.

We have the gear down at the OM or FAF.

The checklist litany has the 1000' AFL call as "1000 feet, before landing checklist complete."

We have to have a stabilized approach (on course +/- 1/3 a dot, on glide path +/- 1/2 dot, on speed and power up) at 1000' AFL in IMC or 500' AFL VMC.

Safety first.

There are bold pilots and there are old pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

 

[flint4xx]

Let me guess, it was Phil. He's an idiot.

Put the gear down and leave the flaps up. In the 350 it works in just fine with jet traffic. It was routine in Bogota.

 

[satpak77]

A.F.-

How did you ever guess?

Things like this make me shake my head, buy LogBook Pro, update my logbook, and start paying attention to Brown and Purple's hiring picture.

take care brother

 

[Gulfstream 200]

strchkr -

take a tour of the NTSB database, type in Learjets and see how many have geared up or slid off the end of the runway (many with fatalities). Then see how many of them are freight runners.

then picture in your mind how many of them hated to be waste a few extra seconds and slow to approach speed....

Nobody is talking about holding up traffic here and flying at 100Kts, we are past that. The core of this conversation is STANDARDS. You can bend them to fit the situation, but when clowns start ignoring them completely - its that first broken link in the accident chain.

The checks dont care if you are 4 mins later and they certainly dont pay you enough to care either!

 

[Gulfstreamlover]

Keeping the speed up? Hell the gear speed in most airplanes is 170 knots, how fast does he fly the approch Always been dot above for me.

 

[THE Flying Ace]

cl-65link, did you go to North Dakota?

 

[hydroflyer]

Even flying freight in a prop where we usually fly an approach faster than many would be comfortable with (relative to the equipment and gear speeds), the lower the weather and minimums, the slower I go and it seems to be the same with everyone else I've observed. I've never been told to keep my speed up when going down an ILS to minimums, nor will I. The slower and more stabilized I can be at DH, the more likely I am to see the runway or the lights. Take a few seconds longer on the approach the first time, or go missed and take several more MINUTES performing the next approach.

 

[wil]

Another shining example of why I love 121 operations!

 

[mckpickle]

Most busy airports call for 180 to the marker. When I flew the ATR gear speed was 160. There is no reg that I'm aware of that calls to be configured by the Outer Marker. We just always had to be configured by 1000 feet.

Plus if everyone slowed to aproach speed at the Marker there would be even longer delays at EWR.

 

[Jmmccutc]

even in a 172RG, they teach us gear down 2 dots below (so by the time it's no dots they are down and locked) . fly the approach at 100 and at the break out point (or MM when VMC), it's power idle, full flaps to maintain GS. i know this is different than a 121 opperation, but even us small guys have it down by the FAF...