G4 crash at BED

[Jasper]

Any info? Just saw news flash.

 

[FastestPA31Ever]

N121JM, registered to SK Travel, LLC. Address on the registration is a law firm in Raleigh, NC.

 

[t-bone]

No survivors...RIP

http://www.corporatejetinvestor.com/articles/gulfstream-iv-n121jm-crash-claims-seven-lives-546/

 

[lowtimedriver]

Anyone know if it took off from R 11/29 or 5/23?

 

[rettofly]

Anyone know if it took off from R 11/29 or 5/23?

I heard RW 11 on a news cast yesterday.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Departed runway 11. Wreckage located approximately 2000 feet beyond the departure end in a gully. Eyewitness stated the airplane was never airborne.

Be safe out there people.

 

[polarjet205]

Just wondering, the NTSB said they removed the FDR and CVR.. I was not aware that a GIV had those installed.. very curious accident, esp with a very experienced crew that has been together for 10 years.. RIP

 

[Some guy]

I believe most jets with x passengers or more they are required.

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me. If there were any issues prior to v1, an abort should have been initiated. They had plenty of runway and never stopped. Aside from spoilers or TR's deploying during the roll near v1, I can't think of much that would have prevented rotation. It was to be the third flight of the day and they were going from BED to ACY so they were light. Long runway and they still ended up 2000' beyond the end. The only plausible thing I can think of is birds in the engines at or near v1. No engines means no TRs, no spoilers, no normal brakes. Ebrakes will only give a couple of applications. Why or how else could they have gone so far?

SG

 

[Rough67]

Flaps..

 

[Some guy]

I thought of flaps too, but they had 3k more runway than needed for a normal takeoff. I imagine they would have gotten off the ground, even if only briefly. It sounds like they didn't even rotate. Flaps? Possible I suppose. Sillier things have happened.

 

[lowtimedriver]

Light fuel load for a short flight. Couldn't a G-IV take off with no flaps on a 7,000 foot runway provided that the PIC didn't rotate before flying speed, entering a stall?

 

[BrokeAssPilot]

7,000ft is plenty for a lightweight or heavy takeoff. I just looked at the airport diagram, it would be hard to not be obvious making an intersection takeoff. Sad situation.

 

[Partyfoul]

Stick Pusher valve stuck open? Its happened before….

 

[Some guy]

Stick Pusher valve stuck open? Its happened before?.

Possible, but would have had to of failed right at v1 or shortly afterwards, otherwise the abort would have been a normal abort. Last report I saw was an official said that the flap handle was set to 10 degrees. The picture shows both TRs closed. If they were trying to stop, why are they not deployed? If both engines took birds and shutdown, they wouldn't be able to deploy.

 

[BrokeAssPilot]

http://lexington.wickedlocal.com/article/20140602/NEWS/140609446

 

[gutshotdraw]

At a light to moderate weight, a GIV will takeoff from an airport like BED with flaps 0 without any problem. Except for the THREE CHIMES blaring away and the red CONFIG WARNING CAS message on the display unit. There is actually a ferry permit procedure available to move the airplane with flaps 0.

Although I am loathe to second guess a crew or speculate on a cause, the only things I can think of given the circumstances are a control lock not fully disengaged, a jammed elevator, or runaway full nose down trim combined with a CG near the forward limit. Gulfstreams can be nose-heavy, especially if equipped with a forward galley.

 

[t-bone]

Does the GIV have a gust lock, and if so does it lock-out the elevator?

 

[Some guy]

At a light to moderate weight, a GIV will takeoff from an airport like BED with flaps 0 without any problem. Except for the THREE CHIMES blaring away and the red CONFIG WARNING CAS message on the display unit. There is actually a ferry permit procedure available to move the airplane with flaps 0.

Although I am loathe to second guess a crew or speculate on a cause, the only things I can think of given the circumstances are a control lock not fully disengaged, a jammed elevator, or runaway full nose down trim combined with a CG near the forward limit. Gulfstreams can be nose-heavy, especially if equipped with a forward galley.

Doesn't the gust lock also lock the power levers on a G? I thought it did, but could be mistaken.

 

[gutshotdraw]

T-Bone: Yes, and yes.

Someguy: Great question and my feeble memory fails me at the moment. I THINK so but I've never pushed up the throttles with the gust lock engaged.

The entire incident is very sad and very puzzling.

 

[Partyfoul]

The gust lock limits throttle movement to 6 degrees. So, yes, they are locked out. Same system on all the Gulfstreams.

 

[Some guy]

The gust lock limits throttle movement to 6 degrees. So, yes, they are locked out. Same system on all the Gulfstreams.

Although I've had a few years working on Gs, I had never tried either. I thought the throttle lock was pretty standard due to too many accidents years ago.

SG

 

[Rough67]

GIV Recorders Give NTSB Clues to Hanscom Field Crash
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigators are closely analyzing the contents of cockpit voice and flight data recorders recovered intact from the wreckage of the Gulfstream IV that crashed May 31 on takeoff from Bedford-Hanscom Field (BED) in Massachusetts. The accident killed all four passengers and three crew on board. In a televised briefing last week, NTSB investigator-in-charge Luke Schiada said the recorders provide solid information until the moment of the crash off the end of BED?s 7,011-foot-long Runway 11. The aircraft takeoff roll lasted 49 seconds before the recordings were terminated, with normal V-speed callouts occurring during takeoff until the moment of rotation when pilot conversation about aircraft controllability could be heard. The GIV reached 165 knots but never left the ground and the crew attempted to abort the takeoff, deploying maximum reverse thrust in the process. The airplane was unable to stop on the remaining runway and crashed into a gully about 2,000 feet beyond the departure end of the pavement and was subsequently destroyed by fire. Schiada said the aircraft?s takeoff weight and flap settings are still being determined, and that airport surveillance camera footage has yet to be analyzed.

 

[BrokeAssPilot]

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140531X32035&key=1

 

[Rough67]

June 16, 2014, 1:30 PM
The NTSB?s preliminary report into the crash of a Gulfstream IV during takeoff roll at Bedford Hanscom Field near Boston on May 31 revealed a number of inconsistencies. On June 13, investigators reported that while the flap handle on the jet was set to the ?flaps 10? position, the flight data recorder indicated the flaps were set to the ?flaps 20? position.

Speculation also focused on the position of the aircraft?s gust lock before takeoff. On that subject, the report said, ?The flight data recorder (FDR) data revealed the elevator control surface position during the taxi and takeoff was consistent with its position if the gust lock was engaged.? The GIV?s control lock will not normally allow the thrust levers to be advanced beyond six-percent thrust with the lock engaged. ?The gust lock handle, located on the right side of the control pedestal, was however found in the forward (OFF) position and the elevator gust lock latch was disengaged,? concluded investigators. The Gulfstream?s FDR did not record any movement of the flight controls by the crew before takeoff.

AIN spoke with a GIV pilot based in the northeast U.S. who did not wish to be identified but offered some insights on the aircraft. ?The position of the controls recorded by the FDR was pretty consistent with where the flight controls normally rest during taxiing,? he said. On this basis, the gust lock theory would seem less plausible.

?You normally don?t even start the engines with the control lock in place,? the pilot added. He explained that part of the Gulfstream takeoff procedure includes feeling the controls lighten as air moves across the tail surfaces early in the takeoff roll. ?If we don?t feel that by 60 knots or so, it?s an automatic abort,? he added, while also questioning the takeoff speeds mentioned in the report. ?At a light [takeoff] weight, the V1 speed of the GIV should have been about 118 knots,? he said, ?with rotation at about 124.? This prompted him to question why the aircraft reached a speed of 165 knots before the crew aborted the takeoff.

 

[imacdog]

......while also questioning the takeoff speeds mentioned in the report. ?At a light [takeoff] weight, the V1 speed of the GIV should have been about 118 knots,? he said, ?with rotation at about 124.? This prompted him to question why the aircraft reached a speed of 165 knots before the crew aborted the takeoff.

Gee, maybe because if they had a flight control issue, they wouldn't have realized it until Vr, and are still accelerating like a bat out of hell during the two or three seconds it takes to process that information and begin the abort.....

 

[Some guy]

That's interesting the reported stated that elevators were in a position consistent with the gust lock being engaged. The elevators are down when parked. The gust lock gets engaged with the elevators down. The statement doesn't really mean anything. There would be no reason to engage the gust lock between flights unless a bad storm had come though and I don't think that was the case. The report isn't really specific about the control problems experienced at v1, so we assume it was pitch control. Elevators, horizontal stab, pitch trim, spoiler deployment, and w&b could be part of the story. The horizontal stab is mechanically linked to the flaps and is moved by a jackscrew. (I think subsequent models have a stab / flap disconnect) I don't think there is a warning on the GIV about the stab being out of position because there is a mechanical connection, but I think of the Alaska Air with that jackscrew. The whole thing baffles me. I wish to hell they would have run their flight controls through during the taxi out.

I'm sure the NTSB will figure this out in time and hope to hell we all learn something from it.

SG

 

[sstearns2]

Meditate for a moment of the fact that the NTSB never investigated nor had any comment on the 9/11 flights. The NTSB is legally required to investigate all fatal transportation accidents, yet they did not protest at all when the accident sites on 9/11 were immediately destroyed by the FBI.

Read about who the passengers on that GIV were. This reeks of an assassination to me and airplanes are the preferred method of killing someone while maintaining plausible deniability. There are lots of examples.

The only reason we think these guy did not do a control check is the NTSB telling us that. The no control check/lazy pilot story sounds like a cover up. It may sound crazy, but this kind of thing happens to politically controversial people a lot more often then we are aware of. JFK Jr, Senators Wellstone and Stevens, a large number of central american presidents, etc. The CIA's preferred method for a clean, deniable way of killing someone is with an airplane according the Robert Baer who is a career CIA field agent.

Scott

 

[gutshotdraw]

Meditate for a moment of the fact that the NTSB never investigated nor had any comment on the 9/11 flights. The NTSB is legally required to investigate all fatal transportation accidents, yet they did not protest at all when the accident sites on 9/11 were immediately destroyed by the FBI.

Read about who the passengers on that GIV were. This reeks of an assassination to me and airplanes are the preferred method of killing someone while maintaining plausible deniability. There are lots of examples.

The only reason we think these guy did not do a control check is the NTSB telling us that. The no control check/lazy pilot story sounds like a cover up. It may sound crazy, but this kind of thing happens to politically controversial people a lot more often then we are aware of. JFK Jr, Senators Wellstone and Stevens, a large number of central american presidents, etc. The CIA's preferred method for a clean, deniable way of killing someone is with an airplane according the Robert Baer who is a career CIA field agent.

Scott

I'm not usually a black helicopter, tin foil hat, conspiracy theory kinda guy. BUT, given the OPEN and OBVIOUS violations of the Constitution we've seen with alarming and growing frequency the past decade, it isn't exactly a stretch to at least consider the notion.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2001/010913.htm


NTSB Press Release

National Transportation Safety Board
Office of Public Affairs
NTSB PROVIDING TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE TO FBI INVESTIGATION

September 13, 2001

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The National Transportation Safety Board is providing technical assistance to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is the lead agency investigating the terrorist attacks of September 11. At the request of the FBI, the Safety Board has sent investigators with knowledge of aircraft structures and flight recorders to the crash sites in New York, Pennsylvania and at the Pentagon. They are assisting in the search for the cockpit voice recorders and flight data recorders - the so-called "black boxes" - and helping to identify aircraft parts.

The NTSB has offered the use of its laboratories to read out any recorders the FBI may find.

The Safety Board also dispatched its family affairs specialists to New York and Pennsylvania to advise the FBI and the airlines on providing federal services to the families of the victims of these crimes. Similar assistance is being provided for the crash at the Pentagon.

As the crashes of the four airliners on Tuesday are criminal acts, the FBI is the lead investigative agency and will release all information on the progress of the investigation. News media should direct questions on this investigation to the FBI's press office at (202) 324-3691.

NTSB Office of Public Affairs: (202) 314-6100

 

[Crossky]

Read about who the passengers on that GIV were. This reeks of an assassination to me and airplanes are the preferred method of killing someone while maintaining plausible deniability. There are lots of examples.

The only reason we think these guy did not do a control check is the NTSB telling us that. The no control check/lazy pilot story sounds like a cover up. It may sound crazy, but this kind of thing happens to politically controversial people a lot more often then we are aware of. JFK Jr, Senators Wellstone and Stevens, a large number of central american presidents, etc.
Scott

I'm too lazy to look up who they were, please tell us, and explain why the USG had motive and why it was an issue of national security.

You think the CIA has infiltrated the NTSB? Wow. If they wanted to take the plane down and kill passengers an aborted takeoff is more risky of success than other' accident scenarios', don't you think?

I've read about Wellstone, that was pure pilot error, I think Stevens crash was too.

TWA800, now we're talking conspiracy. But not here.