Future of the LCC's in jeopardy?

[Dan Roman]

Interesting perspective. My apologies to the good folks at SWA, but some pretty ugly attitudes seem to be rearing it's head from your ranks. This is a tough business, you don't have the same cost advantage you used to have (some of you guys bragging about your pay sound like the UAL guys in 2000) and the legacy airlines our consolidating and becoming much stronger. It's not out of the question that the surviving full service airlines could come back and squeeze you very very hard. They have route systems that you will never be able to duplicate and they appear to be coming out of this round of mergers much stronger. You would be well advised not to be so cocky. SWA today compares to DAL or UAL like USAir did in the 1980's and 90's. USAir was a very good "smaller" airline that was doing very well. Watch out, you may think you can conquer the world, but it's a delusion. You succeded mostly by avoiding head to head competition with the legacies, you are headed to uncharted territory and the legacies you want to take on haven't been this strong (due to consolidation) in a long time.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/experts/grossman/2010-10-05-southwest-airtran-merger_N.htm

 

[Raoul Duke]

I think the big difference between the SWA guys and other airlines is that in the same breath that they talk about their pay, they also talk about their productivity. Just watch them taxi vs the East Cactus Crawl.

 

[airlinepilot]

Our pay is great but only because every major took major pay cuts. Since the give back by Delta, United, USAIR, AMR etc......we at SWA have had only modest pay increases. All those pilots and FA's "want their money back" and there is no reason to believe that pay for them is not going back up....while productivity remains the same. I am sure our new employees from AT will step-up and join our culture of high productivity......

 

[FlyinGuy]

Just a question Mr Roman.....where have you witnessed these ugly attitudes? My guess it is on some forum like FI where dudes can spout off whatever they want and no one knows anything about them. For all we know, they could be in between lessons at their local airport.

I work at SWA and I can tell you that this is a great place to be and most people I encounter have an excellent attitude. Many of the f/o's and jr. capts have some issues with the merger, and I have not talked to any that are bitter. Being concerned about your career (and voicing that concern) does not automatically equate into a bad attitude.

Have a nice day Mr. Roman.....I know I will!!!

 

[ngsp]

well guys, i am a jr. capt at airtran and i too am concerned about how it will all play out. i have expressed those concerns to my mec and will let them take it from there. this is all any line pilot can do. i hope all this can get resolved amongst ourselves, but regardless, i look forward to a long career with a stable company. i hope we can all feel the luv when all this is over.

 

[Dan Roman]

Just a question Mr Roman.....where have you witnessed these ugly attitudes? My guess it is on some forum like FI where dudes can spout off whatever they want and no one knows anything about them. For all we know, they could be in between lessons at their local airport.

I work at SWA and I can tell you that this is a great place to be and most people I encounter have an excellent attitude. Many of the f/o's and jr. capts have some issues with the merger, and I have not talked to any that are bitter. Being concerned about your career (and voicing that concern) does not automatically equate into a bad attitude.

Have a nice day Mr. Roman.....I know I will!!!

That's good to hear, I'm basing it entirely on what I see here on F.I. SWA pilots talking about stapling AirTran and the tipping point was some SWA guy boasting the AirTran was a glorified commuter and SWA was everyone's #1 career choice. Anyway, I just saw him post that it wasn't he that posted it. Good luck and I do understand how stressful mergers can be for some, a lot of s^%t will be flying.

 

[JetDude]

That's good to hear, I'm basing it entirely on what I see here on F.I. SWA pilots talking about stapling AirTran and the tipping point was some SWA guy boasting the AirTran was a glorified commuter and SWA was everyone's #1 career choice. Anyway, I just saw him post that it wasn't he that posted it. Good luck and I do understand how stressful mergers can be for some, a lot of s^%t will be flying.

People post this junk because they can hide behind their anonymity(sp?). He's probably carrying emotional baggage from a previous carrier/job so they vent their fears/frustrations here. The biggest mistake we can make is to consider FI posts factual.

 

[The Prussian]

"If it's true that AirTran's management believes their business as a standalone airline is at risk, and other LCCs concur, this will likely not be the last merger or major action taken by an LCC. It could even spell the end of LCCs as we know them if more consolidate, join alliances or morph into something better resembling traditional network airlines. That may not bode well for those who have enjoyed an extended spell of low airfares, but in the immediate term, AirTran passengers are sure to rejoice over the elimination of baggage fees and a few extra inches of seat pitch, courtesy of Southwest Airlines."


IF anybody bothered to read Dan's article, the entire article by this so-called airline expert, was predicated on a big IF... if Airtran believes their business as a stand-alone LCC is at risk. Maybe it's food for thought, but not based much in reality.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Thing is, WN ALWAYS promised low-frills, on-time, and they won't lose your bag - and they've ALWAYS delivered.

Legacies still portend to offer "premium" service but fall far short. The ONLY reason they are making any profit is because sheeple are either too stupid or are so wrapped up in their worthless miles to take notice of all the petty fees.

WN makes money without the stupid fees AND they still deliver what they promise.

The only way LCCs could possibly be in jeopardy is if legacies could cut their costs so they can make money while offering better service for less money.

Ain't gonna happen.

 

[generaltso]

Thing is, WN ALWAYS promised low-frills, on-time, and they won't lose your bag - and they've ALWAYS delivered.

Legacies still portend to offer "premium" service but fall far short. The ONLY reason they are making any profit is because sheeple are either too stupid or are so wrapped up in their worthless miles to take notice of all the petty fees.

WN makes money without the stupid fees AND they still deliver what they promise.

Most of the time I have priced airline tickets, the legacies are significantly cheaper than SWA... even after factoring in bag fees.

SWA is turning in to a legacy. They will eventually add bag fees, you heard it here. While SWA is still a good company, and a great place to work, it is not the same company it was 15 years ago. They are straying further and further from the business model that made them successful.

But it's only a matter of time before the LUV wears off. As they continue to morph in to a legacy, there labor costs will continue to rise (already the highest). When the next downturn happens in a few years, they will be at the table talking concessions. As others have said, they will be the DAL/UAL of 2000.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dornier 335]

Most of the time I have priced airline tickets, the legacies are significantly cheaper than SWA... even after factoring in bag fees.

The "trick" with SWA is that on most travel sites you'll never find a comparison with SWA. Clever technique.

I think the big difference between the SWA guys and other airlines is that in the same breath that they talk about their pay, they also talk about their productivity. Just watch them taxi vs the East Cactus Crawl.

Doesn't SWA have a different type of pay vs. "block or better" airlines? An extra minute can get you a Miller Lite later on at the bar, or a Patrón depending on the side of your seat and your seniority. Am not familiar with the SWA scheduling/pay system...

(I guess you could be a good Samaritan and donate your "block or better" dollar bills at a local establishment to support single moms... One $ at a time though)

 

[Mr.B]

The LCCs will be in for rocky roads if/when some goon from corporate America assumes the helm and decides said airline has become his new cash cow.

When I put on my Carl Ichan hat and take a look around for my next venture, I'll look for an entity in a state of transition and lots of cash to be siphoned.

All in the name of the free market mind you.

Today's king of the hill in the airline biz is tomorrows walking wounded and anybody who believes he has finally found that stable career is whistling by the graveyard. Unfortunately.

 

[Hamburger]

The only way LCCs could possibly be in jeopardy is if legacies could cut their costs so they can make money while offering better service for less money.

Service like a flight to Barcelona? London? Paris? China? Moscow?

The ONLY reason they are making any profit is because sheeple are either too stupid or are so wrapped up in their worthless miles to take notice of all the petty fees. .

No bag fees, but you have to pay extra for a PLACE IN LINE?
If you believe that 'no nickel and dime at WN' spin, you've got no business calling other people 'sheeple'.
Those 'worthless' miles will take them to Hawaii or Paris. In Business or First Class.
You are severely understating the value of free stuff. Don't forget that free stuff has extra appeal to poor people. You know..... the LCC target audience. A free trip to Hawaii is a hell of a thing to the crowd who actually show up to the flight wearing clothing 'purchased' with Marlboro Bucks/Camel Cash.

 

[spciii]

You people kill me. If I can summarize, WN will be in trouble when it finds itself with a CEO who's gone full retard with the operations and starts using his airline as an ATM to be bled dry. Also, WN's in big trouble because they didn't declare Chap 11 and trash their contracts with labor.
This is just another iteration of the "just think how bad SWA is gonna suck when their fuel hedges run out."

 

[Secret Squirrel]

The difference is that SWA is setting the bar and making money at those prices. Other airlines are just trying to keep their name at the top of the orbitz list and have been bleeding on domestic routes.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You people kill me. If I can summarize, WN will be in trouble when it finds itself with a CEO who's gone full retard with the operations and starts using his airline as an ATM to be bled dry. Also, WN's in big trouble because they didn't declare Chap 11 and trash their contracts with labor.

That's because southwest's labor contracts were already trash! Low pay, ********************ty work rules, and PFT! The legacy's were brought down to their pathetic pay thanks to bad management and bankruptcy laws.

This is just another iteration of the "just think how bad SWA is gonna suck when their fuel hedges run out."

They already suck, it's just a matter of perspective.:laugh:

 

[Mamma]

The difference is that SWA is setting the bar and making money at those prices. Other airlines are just trying to keep their name at the top of the orbitz list and have been bleeding on domestic routes.

Setting the bar at what?

 

[jetpig32]

You people kill me. If I can summarize, WN will be in trouble when it finds itself with a CEO who's gone full retard with the operations and starts using his airline as an ATM to be bled dry. Also, WN's in big trouble because they didn't declare Chap 11 and trash their contracts with labor.
This is just another iteration of the "just think how bad SWA is gonna suck when their fuel hedges run out."

Never go full retard!

 

[P38JLightning]

SWA is a great airline. But they will not always be top of the heap. As they grow, especially into high delay markets, their costs will rise and their productivity will fall. Other majors will adapt to survive and if that means SWA productivity if the only other choice is SWA dominance as they flounder, we will see SWA productivity everywhere. Guaranteed. The extreme ATC preferential treatment is coming to an end as well. Watch for it, guaranteed.

 

[chqflyer]

I don't think SWA's future is as dire as every keyboard commando is suggesting. They may not have the global route structure of the legacies, but they will continue to do what no other airline on the planet is capable of, make money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone reported record profits last quarter, but everyone except SWA will be right back to record breaking losses with record breaking executive bonuses within the next year. There's a reason every regional pilot and many major pilots are trying to get hired at SWA.