Future of the Hawker 4000

[johnsonrod]

From what I've heard Talon Air operates 4 of them, and their dispatch reliability absolutely sucks. Two of theirs are owned by Talon's CEO - good, because they are constantly used to back up the other two which are owned by management clients. If it weren't for the back up airplanes, the other owners would likely throw those pieces of ..... out.

Just read that Talon now operates 9 H4000 airframes and will get 2-3 additional airframes before the end of 2013. Why would Talon operate so many if the airplane were so unreliable? Are they all back-up airplanes for each other? Sounds like they have maybe figured out how to operate them. I think I read all had the Block Point upgrade...

Won't apply but just curious - what are they paying newhires on the H4000? Sounds like they will need more pilots for the expanding H4000 fleet in the near term...

 

[Pattern-Master]

Just read that Talon now operates 9 H4000 airframes and will get 2-3 additional airframes before the end of 2013. Why would Talon operate so many if the airplane were so unreliable? Are they all back-up airplanes for each other? Sounds like they have maybe figured out how to operate them. I think I read all had the Block Point upgrade...

Won't apply but just curious - what are they paying newhires on the H4000? Sounds like they will need more pilots for the expanding H4000 fleet in the near term...

As a born and raised Long Islander, probably not enough. They do have a nice facility and operation, but that doesn't pay the bills.

 

[BEfly]

I was in training with some talon air guys in Wichita, they seem to have success with them. They were using them to fly rck stars around...on tour. They weren't boasting about the pay thats for sure.

I really like the airplane, powerful, fun to fly, but it's easy to love with less than 500 hours on it. still lots of players involved in buying the type. We are glad to have other planes to fly if the s... Hits the fan with HBC ( now Beechcraft) or the plane itself.

We get a lot of neg comments on the road with it. Lots of pilots like to hate this thing and know nothing about it...... We expect curiosity but some of the myths that people believe are really funny. The company is an American icon. They don't have to buy the product or like it but I expect some more thought to take place before pilots opening their mouths....Yeah right...Some mismanagement and corporate greed really messed things up for that company. If hawkers, beechjets, and king airs were wiping out around the world due to production flaws then the comments I get would be warranted. Cheers

 

[ultrarunner]

Just read that Talon now operates 9 H4000 airframes and will get 2-3 additional airframes before the end of 2013. Why would Talon operate so many if the airplane were so unreliable? Are they all back-up airplanes for each other? Sounds like they have maybe figured out how to operate them. I think I read all had the Block Point upgrade...

Won't apply but just curious - what are they paying newhires on the H4000? Sounds like they will need more pilots for the expanding H4000 fleet in the near term...

Johnson, that's approximately the number of white-tail and nearly-completed airframes that HB owned at the time of BK.

Shortly after the filing, HB got BK authorization to dump all remaining airframes on the market. At that time, they were being offered for 8 million each, with no warranty and all had the block-point upgrade.

Guess Talon decided to take the risk, or sold it to their customers to take the risk. But at some point, they will break and be very expensive to fix out-of pocket. But if there are spares readily available, I suppose for some it's a good risk....

Wouldn't be for me...

 

[CDogg]

Just read that Talon now operates 9 H4000 airframes and will get 2-3 additional airframes before the end of 2013. Why would Talon operate so many if the airplane were so unreliable? Are they all back-up airplanes for each other? Sounds like they have maybe figured out how to operate them. I think I read all had the Block Point upgrade...

Won't apply but just curious - what are they paying newhires on the H4000? Sounds like they will need more pilots for the expanding H4000 fleet in the near term...

They actually have 14 now... pay is around $70k for a SIC and $110k for a PIC (not at talon, but industry wide)

 

[CDogg]

But at some point, they will break and be very expensive to fix out-of pocket. But if there are spares readily available, I suppose for some it's a good risk....

Wouldn't be for me...

Case and point of another expert on the industry...

 

[Jetdriver69]

At the last NBAA, Hawker was practically giving the 4000 away better than two for the price of one, but no warranty! My company is a very long time Hawker user and wouldn't even think of buying another, no matter the outcome of any potential buyout/merger, etc. I flew a 4000 on a demo ride and did not like it at all.

 

[AeroBoy]

Ultrarunner, your $8 million figure for the fire-sale Hawker 4000s is about $2 million too high...

Regarding the thread's original question aboutthe future of the Hawker 4000, the answer is likely the same as it was for the Starship: shredded and burned. Beechcraft will be unable to sell the H4000 type certificate and get stuck holding the bag. After a few years of recording losses to keep up the type certificate and provide support for an orphaned fleet, just like the Starship they'll announce they're going to hand back the type certificate to the FAA and cease providing any support, but will buy back the airframes for essentially scrap value and then send them to a facility to be shredded and incinerated. There will still be few die-hard operators who will still continue to fly them, just like the Starship, but most will end up char-broiled.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ultrarunner, your $8 million figure for the fire-sale Hawker 4000s is about $2 million too high...

Ha, nope, and I'm gonna keep the HBC proposal-letter just for grins...

And I agree with your comments on what will ultimately become of the beast...