Furoloughed taking CFI jobs RJ's, PFT

[rumpletumbler]

I'm still not clear on all the politics involved in aviation. Can someone please clear this up for me?

It's not ok to PFT!

I agree. I have someone right now who says they want me to work for them and we can "work something out" as far as my getting checked out in their aircraft to teach for them. Yea, we can work out me not working there. I've run into this twice now and am yet to have my first CFI job.

People who fly RJ's are the dark side.

I still haven't really gotten the mentality on this one and still trying to understand both sides. If someone can support their family flying an RJ and it helps keep the airline from going belly up then doesn't everyone win?

Here is one that is of course affecting me at the present time and therefore of greatest concern to me. If it isn't ok to PFT and it isn't ok to fly an RJ then why is it ok for all the furloughed guys to take all the CFI jobs?

RT

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Who told you that flying an rj is wrong? That is not what the complaint is at all. What is wrong is the transfer of jobs to low wage airlines. What is more wrong is a lawsuit which would remove any restrictions on this process. Guys who fly rjs, however, are just like every other pilot. They are just fellow aviators doing the best that they can.

P.S.
I don't really think that PFT extends into the CFI world. If a guy wants to charge you 50 bucks to check you out in his 172, I don't think that you will kill the profession if you take him up on it.

PPS
You don't have to worry about this furloughee taking your CFI job. Been there, done that, won't do it again!

 

[MINIME]

Dude!!!

Pay your 50 or even 200 dollars to get checked out on that 172 or 152 and GET A FLYING JOB!! The concept of PFT does not apply in this situation. I would be more careful if someone approached you about flying something like a King Air and you having to spit out 5,000 dollars or something.

And.....just flying RJs is not an aviation crime against your fellow pilots. In fact, it's not the pilots who are to blame but rather the dire situation that the industry is in and .......of course managements EVERYWHERE to a large extent. None of us want to see fellow pilots loose their jobs because they are going to be replaced with some Regional Jet. Personally, I am aware that for every job we take with an RJ we loose three or four Major jobs that I will not have the chance to go to now.....or maybe ever!! Not to mention, now my income possibilities are far, far less

Just my .02

 

[rcbullock]

CFI checkout

I think what he means is, people check him out, and then no job comes, and he spent cash to get checked out at 1 or more places.

I had something similar happen. I had a fresh ticket, and had added a couple ratings recently, and the place wanted a checkout. Ok, I did it and instructed a little. 9 months later or so, I hadn't done much for them in the meantime, they wanted another checkout due to insurance requirement changes. I had a fresh IPC. They had also never paid me for one of the few flights I had done for them.

I said no thanks. And the guy who said 'Sorry, it's not my requirement' ALSO wanted me to pay him to check me out! Not just A/C time!

 

[Pilotadjuster]

Checkouts

Its normally an insurance requirement. Also, put yourself in the chief instructor's shoes; he doesn't know you from Adam, and now you want to instruct students in his shiny (or not so shiny) airplanes... I would want at LEAST a quick checkout, just to see what your habits are and how you teach them.

Also--at least where I instruct, you need a minimum of 10 hours make and MODEL to instruct anyone in the aircraft. That is, if you have 1000hrs in Cessnas and want to instruct in an Archer, you have to pay for 10 hours before you can go up with a student or even a sightseeing flight. The insurance requirements drive a lot of the requests for checkouts you are seeing.

If the guy said he'd "work something out", I would take that as a positive sign that he's not going to charge you full bore for a checkout to instruct in his aircraft.

 

[Joseph II]

Here in Denver, it seems to be the norm that you have to get either your CFI-A, your CFII, or your multi at their school before they will even consider you as an instructor. Then once you get that, your odds of instructing are pretty low.

I of course am a very very low time CFI-A so that could be part of the problem too. :-(

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD P-F-T

. . . . and I'm not talking about the 141 certification program and possible interview at the end. That is not P-F-T, by the way, because you can use the Commercial-Multi-Instrument and San Juan JC A.S. in Aero Science anywhere.

What I am talking about is I got hired there as an instructor for all courses, i.e., Private Single, Instrument and Commercial Multi. High-class outfit that Mesa is, I moved one thousand miles and arrived there to find out I would have to shell out the cost of my multi checkout in the B58. I say again, I was not told I would have to "pay for training" in the Baron during my interview. What choice did I have, considering the alternative was unemployment? So, they got me over the barrel and I shelled out $700 for my Baron checkout. No, it didn't kill me to do it but I feel that Mesa conned me. Once again, one thing that Mesa did best in the mid '90s was make money, even off its own employees.

I agree with Pilotadjuster. I guess my point is, in this instance, is do whatever is necessary to get some students and work.

Notwithstanding some of the scope debates, I don't understand why people would think that flying RJs in and of itself is on the dark side. But, that's just my .02.

Good luck with going to work.

 

[Pilotadjuster]

work

Joseph--I hear you! With no students yet, getting the II seems like a waste at this point; if I have to change schools, perhaps paying for that at the "new" school will give me an in with getting at least one student...

Good luck in Denver and Fly Safe!

 

[DC9stick]

"Also--at least where I instruct, you need a minimum of 10 hours make and MODEL to instruct anyone in the aircraft. That is, if you have 1000hrs in Cessnas and want to instruct in an Archer, you have to pay for 10 hours before you can go up with a student or even a sightseeing flight. The insurance requirements drive a lot of the requests for checkouts you are seeing."


I have never paid for a job in nigh on to 30 years in this industry.

I have never paid to be checked out in any aircraft operated by an employer or prospective employer. (I did repay partial training expenses after leaving a job I had for only three months due to no fault of the operator.)

I have operated or managed an FBO and two flight schools, one 141 certified, and have never charged an instructor or prospective instructor for a check out or check ride. Check outs and check rides are part of the cost of doing buisness just like fuel, insurance etc. Employers who charge for these are scum just like the P-F-T operators.

If the insurance requires ten hours in type (I've never seen a policy for fixed gear singles worded this way) then the employer should provide such time. This is just another way for the buisness to attempt to make money from it's employee's.

 

[CCDiscoB]

I wouldn't call flying RJs the "dark side." I separate the issues, like Bobbysamd said, contract issues is one thing, but as far as piloting RJs, I see them as a major stepping stone in a pilot's career. A route to the majors will include some kind of smaller jet PIC time. Unfortunately, with more RJs, and less mainline, the next step will be that much harder.

 

[Ty Webb]

A route to the majors will include some kind of smaller jet PIC time.

That's not necessarily true.

They generally prefer 121 PIC turbine time, but it doesn't need to be turbojet.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that a lot more major pilots came out of Brasilias, Dash 8', Metro, Jetstream and Beech equipment than turbojet equipment.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I think that it is kind of lame for a school to hire you as a CFI and not pay for your checkout in an aircraft that they need an instructor in. If it's a contract work or freelance arrangement, that is a little different.

It's not the PFT that hurts our profession, but it's lame. If someone needs me as an instructor in their 172's, they should pay for the time it takes to satisfy the insurance company.

At the school I worked for, they paid for all checkouts on a "need" basis. We had a Bonanza. They wouldn't check out anybody in it, but if they needed a Bonanza instructor, they would select somebody (usually the most senior instructor) and pay for the checkout.

We did have a situation where another instructor wanted to get checked out to teach in it. One of his students was a major league umpire, and he wanted to fly down with two other umpires to a spring training game that they were officiating. The Boss was pretty cool about it and paid for half of the checkout. I was all for it, because I was the only other instructor checked out at the time, so it was a bunch of free Bonanza time for me to check this guy out.

Anyway, right now you have to do what it takes, but I think it's lame of a school to hire you at $14/hr and not pay for your checkouts.

 

[Pilotadjuster]

checkouts

DC9--maybe thats the way it was, but paying for your own checkouts and 10 hrs time is pretty common in this town (yeah, I know I need to move...). Only 3 flight schools in the area and no shortage of CFIs - oversupply if anything. Kinda have to do what you have to to get some work, not that I am supporting PFT, which I would define as those lovely adds you see in magazines for "FO" positions you pay $15K+ to ride in the right seat of a BE99 or BE1900 (Alpine Air comes to mind, also TAB Express...).


I have no idea if its the furloughed guys taking CFI "jobs", or if its just that current CFIs who now have what would have been acceptable mins for entry level jobs are continuing to instruct because almost no one is hiring. An upturn in the economy would do us all good of course...

 

[sidesaddle]

Creating a job

Back in the early 90's there was also an "over-supply" of instructors. I know a guy who wanted to instruct but was told that no positions were available. He paid a few bucks to get a 1 hr. check out in a 152 at a reputable FBO and secured permission for two things. First, that he could instruct in the FBO's airplanes (and be covered by their insurance of course) if he would bring his own students. Second, that he could use a nice room in the FBO to teach a night ground school once a week.

He put out flyers all over town advertising a ground school and gave his students a deal on an introductory lesson. He generated so many students that he was flying more than some of the FBO employees before long. He was hired soon after and went on to be Assist. Chief Instructor at the 141 school.

Not a bad return on $50 and some effort. And no, I would not put what he did in the same league as PFT. It cost no more than any private pilot would have paid to come get checked out to rent.

Of course it would be great to hired outright but if you can't find a job then perhaps you might consider creating one.