Furloughees in 135

[Freight Dog]

How does your company feel about hiring furloughed regional/major airline pilots? I heard that Ameriflight does if the pilot is willing to resign. Any truth? How about others like Flight Express, Ram Air Freight, Flight Express, etc.?

 

[Rick1128]

We have hired them in the past and will likely hire some in the future. We do not require them to resign their seniority number, mostly because of past experience where furloughed pilots had 'resigned' when they had not really done so. We tend to look at the whole person and where they sit on the furlough list. We had had a couple who left after being recalled with no notice. And that tends to hurt the chances of other furloughees in the future.

 

[Deftone45075]

Every Captain I've flown with in the year and a half I've been at my company has been a furloughed guy. There were a lot of guys on the street with the 31/32 type.

 

[mobs]

Not furloughed but retiring and was offered a 135 job on the condition I would pay for recurrent on the LR 31 and work for $35,000 as pic. No Way. None of us(esp retiring pilots)should work for slave pay. By the way my retirement was cut by 70% is the reason I am looking for work. Mobs

 

[Rick1128]

My current employer and my previous employer have hired retired airline pilots. And they both have been pleased with the results. The biggest problem I have had with them is that some had forgotten how to operate without a dispatcher.

Mobs, I agree with you that NO ONE should accept or work for slave wages. Add paying for recurrent yourself, I wouldn't work for that operator either.

 

[Deftone45075]

Although the furloughed guys see it differently, in a way I'm glad to see airline guys around the 135 world. Because of it I have been able to fly with a lot of them, and I've learned more in the last year and a half working with these guys than I have ever before, both about flying, and the industry in general. Although they're obvioussly not happy about their furlough and being back in a Jetstream, the ones i've had the pleasure of flying with have kept great attitudes overall. It would be great to see them get back to where they were and I wish the best of luck to all.

 

[Deftone45075]

Someone's bitter about something.

...their guys went back to the first airline gig they could get their hands on.

I don't blame them.

 

[Freight Dog]

Boy you sound like a real winner underdog. Makes one wonder what kind of skeletons you got in your closet.

Judging by your types of airplanes, you fly bizjets. If you have a job opening and you offer an attractive package to a pilot (career-type package), you wouldn't worry about your investment going down the drain, would you? I wouldn't.

Treat pilots like whores, and you seem like you do, carry a chip on your shoulder, and you seem like you do, you can bet any sane pilot will jump ship the first chance he/she gets. Funny how some employers never look at it that way.

 

[jamhamms]

so, why would a resume indicating a Flight Engineer rating be disqualified?

 

[Rick1128]

Underdog, Where do I sign up? Is your neighbor still looking?

I do understand Underdog's point. We have hired furloughees before and they have left us hanging. But in our part of the industry that is not uncommon.

As for the FE, I believe you really need to look at the whole picture. A 45 year old pilot with some freight airline experience 15 years ago as an FE, then nothing but 135 and corporate would be a good candidate.

 

[Deftone45075]

Maybe instead of the attitude and simply tossing their resume's, you could actually talk to them and see what their plans are. Some wouldn't be going back for a long ime, and other may want to permanently switch to corporate. Especially if their going to be well compensated.

At least you'd be getting an experienced pilot.

 

[Freight Dog]

Underdog, attrition is just part of business - the more lucrative package you put together, the less attrition you will have, however you can never completely eliminate attrition. Secondly, if you see FURLOUGHED on a resume, or FE rating, it definitely doesn't mean they wouldn't make good employees and good fit for your operations. I know there are tons of guys out there who just figured it was easier to break into the airlines than corporate, so that was the route they took. Would they love to fly corporate as a career? You bet.

I'm with Rick and Deftone with this - are you telling me right now that you would automatically disqualify one of USAirways furloughees who was originally hired in late 90's? They went as deep as 1989 hire date, if not deeper. Or say how about the junior-most pilot at UAL before 9/11?

I realize corporate jobs are difficult to find, and it takes connections to get one. Some are good, some are great, some are excellent, and some are just downright sh*tty. You obviously put together a great package, however your original post indicated bitterness and attitude of some employers I've had in no-name 135 check-flying world.

Sorry to see you guys lose business. But I would strongly urge you to reconsider your attitude towards airline pilots and furloughees.

 

[Rick1128]

FD,

I have to agree with underdog to a degree. Corporate aviation is not a profit center it is a cost center. So you have to really watch your costs. A 25K training contract that you lose hurts.

Besides, it has been my observation that corporate pilots have a much different mind set than airline and freight pilots. Corporate aviation, much like charter is very high on the service scale.

Personally I look at the whole picture. Someone that will fit into our operation and is toward the bottom of the furlough pile, I am more likely to hire. Someone that looks like will stay less than a year or leave without notice is less likely to get hired.

As a manager, your job is to reduce risk to the company. Also to get more bang for the buck. As a pilot, we look at things one way, as a manager, you have to look at them from a different prespective.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rick,

I can understand that. However, there are many of us who never had the opportunity to fly corporate despite our desires. Initially, I wanted to fly corporate. No bites, no luck, 'sorry, need more time' - you know the drill. I ended up taking the airline route. While I couldn't be happier at my airline and fully intend to retire here (I'm 27), if my airline went belly up, I would still love to be able to fly corporate. Now I read Mr. Shallow Hal underdog's post here who tosses every airline pilot's resume into a round file, and that makes me wonder: why? Why not interview a pilot and see how and if that pilot would fit in.

Sure, charter and corporate flying is different from airline - flight planning, catering, sitting around, moment's notice, etc. But it doesn't mean that an airline pilot with type ratings in airliners couldn't handle charter tempo or training. I will not buy that for a second. I was loading my own freight, I was doing my own flight plans, getting and deciphering my own weather etc., and loved every second of it while doing it for barely survivable wages. Even though. I have dispatchers doing it, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't like or couldn't handle doing things on my own like I did back then plus more, for quite a bit more money and at a career place.

My problem with underdog's post is the shallow hal mentality that all airline pilots are not worth a dime for a job opening in his flight department. As you say, you would look at a pilot's overall picture. Judging by underdog's posts, he doesn't seem like he would. Makes me wonder if he tried to get hired at airlines before, and got shot down so now he's carrying a grudge and a big-fish-in-a-small-pond complex.

 

[Rick1128]

FD, remember one thing, underdog is a manager. He is posting a manager viewpoint. While we as pilots may not like it, it is a valid viewpoint. He has much more to consider than just flying the aircraft. He manages people, budgets, maintenance, etc. None of that stuff is as much fun as flying the aircraft.

I believe he does look at the whole picture, but you also need to understand that hiring a corporate pilot is as much about personalities as flight time. I have seen pilots hired by the Chairman of the Board cause they play golf with the pilot's 'uncle' and just graduated from flight school. I have seen many very good sticks turned down on corporate jobs for all sorts of reasons. I could go on and on. There are fewer corporate pilot slots than airline slots overall.

 

[Deftone45075]

I believe he does look at the whole picture, but you also need to understand that hiring a corporate pilot is as much about personalities as flight time.

Exactly! And you won't have a clue about the guy's personality until you give him an interview. There may be a few "airline" pilots who would not fit with a corporate operation, but it doesn't take all that much to make the adjustment. I agree that personality matters, especially when hiring for a corporate flight department, but experience matters as well. Considering that most furloughed airline pilots have a very high level of skill and experience, and have recieved some of the best training available, I think they at least deserve an interview so that they can show their personality would fit.

And this whole idea of how much more is involved in corporate flying is a bit blown out of proportion. The abscence of dispatchers is a non issue. I serioussly doubt that any pilot at the professional level will have a problem with flight planning and reviewing weather. And as far as having to also toss some bags and ensure that catering is onboard, well none of that takes much effort, and if the pilot is well paid, they won't have a problem with that.

Finally, this business about customer service. It doesn't take a genius to know how to be polite and social with pax. It doesn't take years of "corporate" experience to know how to work with the pax and provide the service they want. Too many people try to make it out as if its some amazing task that only a "corporate" pilot can handle, and thats a load of c***. I have flown with plenty of furloughees who had no prior corporate/charter experience and picked it up just fine.

I have also seen pilots who had always worked for charter and private companies who didn't have a clue how to treat a passanger.

 

[Rick1128]

The gentleman that introduced me to corporate aviation has been through at least 5 companies that shut down the flight department because it was starting to cost them too much.

I went through it once. The Chairman hired a new captain that was a Learjet charter pilot, was trained by the military and was airline oriented. While he was a technically good pilot, he was hard on the equipment. Just little things, brake wear went from over 400 landing to about 100. The O2 masks were dropped several times during his landings. Maintenance costs went way up after he came on board. And before you say it, The boss insisted that the airplanes be maintained properly. The department last a year before being closed down.

Being told you are under budget, helps you keep your job in this business. And while when you talk about 5 or 25 million, $25K doesn't sound like a lot. There are a lot of other costs that one doesn't normally take into consideration. The cost of hiring a person and the training that you don't directly pay for. About the department, the company and its business and people. Policy. Clients. And so on. It takes a year or more for a corporate pilot to really start to get to know the prime people and their needs and wants.

Yes I have seen charter pilots that don't know how to treat their passengers. They don't seem to last too long though. As for corporate pilots, I haven't seen one yet that has lasted who doesn't. A lot of the treatment you see depends on the people involved. I have had people who insist I call them by their first name and carry their own bags. And others that want to hear 'Yes, Sir' and 'No, Sir'. Just depends.

 

[Freight Dog]

Underdog and Rick, I can understand and relate. Here is a question for you right now. Let's say that a CURRENT airline pilot who is not furloughed wants to leave his airline and come work for you. Would you toss him out on account that he is an airline pilot? From what I gather from your posts underdog, any airline past or potential and it's a round file.

 

[Freight Dog]

OK, I'll buy off on that. It's just that in your original post, you said:

"Any resume I get (and I get a lot) which indicates airline experience is immediately canned. In fact, a resume indicating a FE rating is also disqualified."

That was what originally got me ticked.

 

[WrightAvia]

thats funny you should mention FEDEX

I just talked to a guy from my old 141 flight school. He is flying for FEDEX. He said that they are not in a hiring mode for furloughed airline pilots. Said they got hosed the last time, when a bunch they hired went back to what ever 121 carrier they were working for recalled them. This is what he said...argue with him. They are doing some hiring at FEDEX and they are not taking furloughed 121 guys.


Kind of another funny story on the spend the money on the new hire angle. At this one 135 operator I worked for, they were real reluctant to let you get into the tubine aircraft, for fear you would get your 1,500 turbine twin pic time and leave for the airlines. So they would hire from the outside and pass over guys that had worked inside for atleast two years or more. So I had to smirk when one of our conquests was in the hanger getting looked at by engineers FROM CESSNA. The wing skins were wrinkled on top and bottom, the props had been replaced after a little ground strike action and there were some nose gear issues. Seems that one of our long time charter pilot's dad retired from evergreen or whatever. Had almost 20,000 total time in turbines, most of those hours being in large planes. He winds up wheel barrowing the conquest's props into the runway, the first week on the job. I never met the guy...so I can only assume that he got embarased and quit. So the different aspect on this high time, large aircraft, moving into charter thing...isn't always a RECALL issue. Sometimes it's a different issue all together.