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General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Airlines like little jets; passengers aren't so sure

By KIRSTEN TAGAMI
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 02/13/04

Frequent traveler Jerry Grasso calls them "flying minivans" because they're small and seem to be everywhere these days.
Regional jets — miniature airliners that typically carry 50 or 70 passengers — now account for more than one in four of the nation's domestic flights.

That's up from 14 percent in 2001, according to a recent study by Reconnecting America, a transportation policy group.

The planes were conceived in the early 1990s to replace turboprops on short hops from small cities to hubs. But they can fly much farther and faster than turboprops, so airlines increasingly use them for flights of two hours or more.

The mini-jets' mushrooming role has created a backlash among some frequent fliers. They say the planes were a welcome upgrade from turboprops but are no substitute for full-size planes on long runs.

Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines runs both regular-size and Delta Connection regional jets on its nearly three-hour Atlanta-Montreal route. United Airlines will begin using a regional jet on Atlanta-Denver flights this spring.

Regional jets such as the widely used Canadair 50-seater have a relatively skimpy 31 inches of legroom, with no chance to upgrade to roomier first-class seats. Most regional jets are all-coach.

"I feel for the guys who are 6-foot-5. Their knees are in their eyeballs," said Grasso, who travels often for his job as spokesman for Atlanta-based Internet service provider EarthLink.

Grasso dislikes the limited carry-on space, low ceilings and what he feels is the sometimes-choppier ride of regional jets vs. midsize jets. He tries to avoid them as much as possible.

That's getting harder.

Delta, through its subsidiaries and partners in Delta Connection, has more regional jets than any other airline, said spokesman John Kennedy. Delta Connection operates more than 380 regional jets and is expecting delivery of 23 more by the end of the year, he said.

After 9/11, regional jets allowed Delta to continue serving small markets or where demand had dropped.

"In many cases, it's a regional jet or nothing," Kennedy said. Delta goes to 245 cities worldwide, and 97 have only regional jet service, he said.

As an added bonus for ailing airlines, regional jets are operated and serviced by lower-paid pilots and other employees who work for subsidiaries or affiliates of major airlines.

As travel rebounds, regional jets also are being used to bypass increasingly crowded hubs. Savannah-New York is one example of a route that has enough traffic to justify nonstop service in a smaller plane, instead of a connection at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.

Regional jets also are being used to increase the frequency of service between certain cities, something that appeals to frequent business travelers by giving them more options, Kennedy said.

Still, he said, the overwhelming majority of Delta's regional jets are used on short jogs.

Peter Lamas, who flies on Delta every other week for his work as a commercial real estate appraiser, has grown accustomed to regional jets.

"I'm 5-foot-9 and 160 pounds, so they're nice and comfortable for me," said Lamas, who lives in Tucker. "They're OK for short flights of an hour to 1 1/2 hours, like Atlanta-New Orleans."

But Tom Kerver, a Denver retiree who has traveled widely, fumes about the growing use of regional jets, especially for longer flights.

"It's like getting into a submarine," he said.

"There are no headsets, no in-flight entertainment of any sort. Tiny restrooms. The bar is limited because there's no galley space. Now they want people to sit in these things for three or four hours."

Chris McGinnis, an Atlanta business travel consultant, said he hears from frequent fliers who are frustrated that they can't use their elite status or big mileage stockpiles to upgrade on regional jet flights.

Then there's the tight quarters, he said.

"Ask any traveler who has had to sit next to an oversized seatmate on a regional jet for more than two hours, and you'll find an angry traveler."



Bye Bye---General Lee;) :rolleyes:

PS--FDJ2 Also printed this article on the "Majors" section
 
I love how people b*tch about flying on a "small RJ"! They want cheap fares and a wide body to boot!! And, the news media does nothing but raise the hype. It is all economics. I think Delta may be able to accommidate the public on certain routes but must price the route to make money. After a few months of empty seats and no profit have the media write an article on why the RJ is coming back to the town to replace the larger aircraft. If people are only willing to pay 99$ one way this is the reality!

General- I take no pleasure in replacing Mainline flying. I see my job as feeding the hub to support Mainline, not replace the service. I hope we can get more furloughs in the air! Take care-
 
I had a passenger come on board last week and comment to me, "What a cute LITTLE plane".

I told here, "There are two things you never tell a man is small, and one of them is his airplane".

She sat down without another word.
 
I guess that everyone thinks a 767 sould service AZO, EVV,HPN,etc. (not hacking these places).

One time a pax asked if I was flying the little puddle jumper (Dornier), to were ever they were going, I responded, "you would not think it was so little if it ran over your foot!"
 
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These business travelers voted with their pocket books. They buy the cheapest internet fares they can get, paid $99 to go half way across the country--what do they expect?

If a route won't support a mainline aircraft, the alternative is a RJ (or no service at all).

Let them whine. Until they are willing to pay full price again for a ticket, they are going to fly on RJ's. (period).
 
Smoking Man said:
I guess that everyone thinks a 767 sould service AZO, EVV,HPN,etc. (not hacking these places).


I don't think its that bad. Most people in small towns are happy to see new RJ service. Example, Continental just announced RJ service from IAH to TLH. Given the size of the TLH market, I don't think people will complain about being put on an RJ.

However, the problems are when you start using RJ's on major routes. DL flies RJ's on routes like CVG-MCO, ATL-JFK, ATL-BUF, DFW-JFK, DFW-OAK, DFW-PHX, DFW-DCA, etc. These are large markets and long distances where the RJ's are inappropriate and will drive customers away. Why would any business traveler want to be crammed in an all coach RJ DFW-DCA on DL when AA offers full-sized planes with first class.

Let them whine. Until they are willing to pay full price again for a ticket, they are going to fly on RJ's. (period).

Your sentiment explains why many of the major carriers are headed for dinosaur status. In most medium/large markets, customers have a choice. Why would any business traveler want to be crammed in an all coach RJ ATL-BUF on DL when FL offers full-sized planes with business class?
 
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on a EZE-JFK...

a pax told me that AA had scheduled a "small" airplane....a
B767-300ER.........go figure...
 
I heard a PAX complain about the size of a 727 on a SMF-SLC flight once. WTF?

Sorry ma'am, you want a larger aircraft, you'll have to drive to SFO for that.

Besides, you think people hate flying RJs? You should see their faces when they walk out of a terminal in ATL and see an ATR waiting for them. I've gotten real accustomed to reading lips. "Oh my God, it's a prop plane."
 
As far as carry-ons go, I'd rather drop it off planside and have it waiting for me at my destination that lug it down a narrow aisle and heave it into an already crowded overhead bin.

PS: Independence Air's CRJ's will have an extra inch of legroom.
 
Beantown said:
How are you pulling that off? Are you pulling out seats? -bean

No we are upgrading all the seats!


Independence Air To Feature New Leather B/E Spectrum™ Seating in All Aircraft
CRJ Seats Will Provide Extra Legroom, Improved Comfort As Part of
Overall Interior Retrofit Program
Dulles, VA, (January 29, 2004) - Atlantic Coast Airlines Holdings, Inc. (Nasdaq: ACAI) today announced it has selected the Spectrum™ seating products manufactured by B/E Aerospace for use aboard all Airbus and CRJ aircraft to be flown by Independence Air-the low-fare airline that will serve Washington Dulles International Airport and 50 other destinations across the U.S.
 
A pax once asked me:

Why is this plane so small?

I said, "because it's going to Greensboro".


A pax asked our FA:

When are these planes gonna get bigger?

He said, when your ticket price gets bigger!

He also said to another pax, This aircraft will not get any bigger sir, it's fully grown.
 
Medflyer is convinced that the Majors will become extinct. He is probably shorting the stock.....


Av8tor,

Your airline will eventually have roomier A320's/19's, but will still have those 85 or so CRJs---and that will become a factor when Southwest, Airtran, Jetblue, and Midatlantic start flying and competing with 737s and EMB-190s on most of your routes--at IAD, DCA, and BWI. It will be tought to make a profit with 50 seats available and $59 one way fares South or North from IAD. Good luck though.

Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
Hey General,

That's one reason why Delta is losing pax to Airtran, your company's use of the RJ.

What a fun article it is!
 
Rightrudder,

I know---that is why I posted it. I think our management needs to wake up, take our 15-20% pay cut we offered, and go forward and maybe buy some 100 seaters and compete. I think a lot of people would rather fly on a 717 rather than a 50 or 70 seater.

BINGO!

Bye Bye---General Lee:rolleyes:
 


Av8tor,

Your airline will eventually have roomier A320's/19's, but will still have those 85 or so CRJs---and that will become a factor when Southwest, Airtran, Jetblue, and Midatlantic start flying and competing with 737s and EMB-190s on most of your routes--at IAD, DCA, and BWI. It will be tought to make a profit with 50 seats available and $59 one way fares South or North from IAD. Good luck though.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) [/B]



General,

It will be tough to make money with all the RJ's that we have but that's the hand we have been given, so we are going to do the best we can. When Independence start's to show a profit you can bet on seeing more 319's and getting rid of most of the RJ's. http://flyi.com
 
General Lee said:
Medflyer is convinced that the Majors will become extinct. He is probably shorting the stock.....


Bye Bye--General Lee;)

I expect a few of the majors (3-4) will survive...there's still a need for a few full-network carriers.

However, Palerider's attitude toward customers is a problem. If every employee at DL (or ASA in his case) has that attitude, DL will not survive. The major airlines have to stop treating customers like they are the enemy...it's a doomed strategy.

The funny thing General is that you and I agree with each other on this issue. RJ's have their place, but they are being used to excess. DL needs a better 100 seater, but even if the DL pilots give concessions (unlikely), DL won't be able to afford them for quite a while.

P.S. I don't own any airline stocks....I like to make money which is pretty tough to do with most airline stocks.
 
What is with all these whiners about the RJ's. Do they forget the day when Metros and Beech 99s roamed the commuter market? My dad did a lot of flying in the 70s/80s for business and remembers those all tooo well.

I'm 5'9 and i fit fine in the RJ's. I fly enough to be considered a frequent flyer and I have NO complaints about the RJ's. Do they have room for my laptop in the cabin? yes. Do they have windows? yes. are they pretty quiet? yes. I have no complaints, I'd fly all RJ's if I had to. Theyre nice planes. and so what if they dont have IFE? Are people for getting about the 200+ American "Super 80s" that lack IFE? How hard is it to bring a cd player and a good book with you?

People these days need to take a chill pill and be glad they even get to fly in a plane, let alone in a nice jet.
 
medflyer:

Give me a break! I hardly see pax as the enemy, but at SOME point reality has to set in. On my last leg from MGM we had a whopping 17 pax. The CR7 probably about breaks even on that leg--you would put a 717, or 738 on that route??

What I said before still stands, people go to the internet and buy the cheapest ticket they can get. If this cheap ticket is on a low volume route--RJ's will be the only thing suitable--get it???

This argument has been hashed out soooooo many times, I hate to revisit it, but a 738 and the CR7 have about the same comfort level. (ridden on the Delta Shuttle planes lately--talk about a cattle car).

The size of the airplane has little to do with customer service. All of the research ASA has done confirms this (among our pax). They want completion, on-time, and convenience--in a well run operation (not ASA), all of these things can be accomplised by an RJ.

Finally, I have bent over backwards for customers at times when the airline has failed them--I don't need some SFB rookie telling me about customer service.
 
Just a quick point: If a flight is going to be full (like so many are these days), I'd rather sit in an RJ. Why?

Because in the RJ I am not going to be forced to sit in the dreaded middle seat in the back of a 150-passenger airplane. You always get either a window or an aisle (or both) in an RJ. There is no worse place to be than stuck in a middle seat for a couple of hours while both your seatmates take both armrests. The pax in front of you has his seat reclined right into your face. The guy on the aisle rolls his eyes when you need to get up to use the lav. The guy at the window slams his shade shut the second he sits down and does not open it until after the plane lands (is he afraid of sunlight - a vampire maybe.)

I'm not going to have to walk up and down the aisle trying to find a space for my rollerbag in the crammed overhead bins while the "friendly" FA's are on the PA telling everyone that they have to sit down so we can push (on the RJ it'll be dropped off at the door and waiting for me when I get off - no fuss, no muss).

In the Embraer, at least, the lav is as big as any mainliner lav since it spans the entire width of the cabin. So what's the complaint about the lav? On another note, because the airplane is much smaller, the FA usually has his or her service done quickly. Therefore the aisle isn't blocked for a half-hour or more by the galley cart, totally preventing any passenger movement to or from the lavs, as happens frequently on the larger mainline jets.

I agree that if the flight is somewhat less than full, I'd rather ride on a full size jet. No RJ can match first class on a mainline jet, especially a widebody. But how many pax ever ride in first class, anyway? First class is taken by the same relatively small demographic – a few businessmen or women cashing in some miles. The rest of the businessmen and women who were not lucky enough to snag one of the few first class seats get to sit in the back of the bus like the rest of us. Oh, but wait! They DO get one more inch of seat pitch! Woo hoo!
:p
 

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