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Full Time CFI Position

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minitour

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2004
Posts
3,249
It just dawned on me tonight as I wander through bills and loan contracts that the school I got my Private at is looking for a Full time CFI...

...the thing that bothers me is the ad says "Full Time Flight Instructor...Training Available"

...common sense tells me I'm going to be paying for my training, but the other part of me is kind of miffed at this "common sense" because of the whole PFT thing...maybe this doesn't count as PFT but I remember when I took my job now (Sales) I didn't have to pay for the training they offered...

...maybe I'm just being stupid and thinking way too in to this, but does anyone else think maybe the guy shouldn't be advertising "training available" if he's not going to provide it?

any feedback is appreciated!

-mini
 
He will provide it, just at your expense...... It is nothing more than "marketing" to attempt to keep students there versus going elsewhere. This is not PFT operation since in reality to be able to flight instruct you must obtain the CFI. Whether you pay for it there or somewhere else does not matter since the bottom line is the training is "required" to be able to flight instruct.

Take this example and compare it to the Gulfstream's of the industry where they are charging $19,000 to rent the right seat of a Beech 1900 for 250 hours or so then you can see the difference. This is not "required" and thus undercuts the industry since they now have people willing to pay for that seat for X amount of hours versus the company having to actually go out, "hire", and "pay" a "qualified" first officer.

Eagle Jet Intl. out of Florida is another wonderful example of this practice where they take a lot of money and rent the right seat out of smaller turbo-prop aircraft for a given amount of money for X hours. This is not "required" training either and allows the 135 companies to not have to "hire" first officers.

The two above examples are "shortcuts" that are not "required" nor are they respected by too many.

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gk...nope...barely over 70 hours (i think)...just gettin started...but lookin to get there asap


350...gotcha...I thought it was just a marketing thing...kinda shady that its in there as "training available" but I shoulda known...

oooh well

thanks guyz!
-mini
 
minitour said:
gk...nope...barely over 70 hours (i think)...just gettin started...but lookin to get there asap


350...gotcha...I thought it was just a marketing thing...kinda shady that its in there as "training available" but I shoulda known...

oooh well

thanks guyz!
-mini
Anyone willing to "sell" or "rent" a seat that isn't required per FAA reqt's. is what you need to be aware of and stay clear of those operations. Consider the source that is "promoting" and "marketing" this unstructured course if you can even call it that.


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gkrangers said:
Why would it be shady? Flight schools provide the necessary training to become a CFI. Its no different than training for your private or anything else....if you want, you could go to that school and earn your instrument, commercial, and CFI and then go be a CFI elsewhere. Would that make you more comfortable?

Thats all required training and everyone pays for it..after that tho, the general idea is to get a flying job to accumulate the hours.

Correct gk, this is not a PFT deal... The key is whether or not "staying" at flight school X or going elsewhere would be in his best interest. Regardless of what route he chooses to take the CFI is required to be able to flight instruct.

The old saying that sometimes holds true is that "some flight schools are just better than others"

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gkrangers said:
Why would it be shady? Flight schools provide the necessary training to become a CFI. Its no different than training for your private or anything else....if you want, you could go to that school and earn your instrument, commercial, and CFI and then go be a CFI elsewhere. Would that make you more comfortable?

Thats all required training and everyone pays for it..after that tho, the general idea is to get a flying job to accumulate the hours.

Manager Opening at McDonald's
Training available

We'll train you to be a manager and then you can go work at Wendy's...it's required training to be a manager (paperwork/payroll/staffing/etc.) so that's okay?

I think it would have been different if ther would have been requirements listed in the ad "Single Comm" or something like that...something that tells me...I have to posess certain skills/certificates before I can apply for the job, and then I can obtain training to do this job...but still at my cost?

So you're going to hire me to be your CFI as a Private Pilot and then I'm going to give you $25-30K to GET my CFI to make $xx a flight hour??

Thats what seems shady...is that for the unsuspecting souls out there (and I've run into them...hell my family has its fair share) that won't use common sense...walk into the interview...sign the contract and then realize they've gotta drop $X to get what they need to work there.

Yep...I realize to BE a CFI, I NEED the CFI Ticket...fine...but don't tell me you're looking for someone to BE a CFI and you'll train me and then tell me I've gotta pay once I've taken the job...shady

tell me up front..."if you've got a current CFI ticket we're looking for a Full Time CFI and if not you can get your CFI here at this school"

that isn't "training available" that is saying "Current CFI Required"...quite simple...

I'm probably reading way too much in to this and probably starting to realize that this school is more of a tax write off for the 135 operation with more polotics going on than the Bush v. Kerry thing...its really sad when students want to learn to fly and get their ratings and you've got a school "operator" who seems to want to gouge the students (and renters too) for every penny and not be up front about it at all...

geez...why can't people just tell it like it is...i hate that...argh...heh I just fired someone for not being up front...what's the big deal people...grow some balls and tell me like it is...just tell me "I want to charge you X and make X profit so you REALLY can only fly X hours and if you go more I'm gonna give you hell"

oh well

thanks for letting me vent...hope no one took anything personally...prolly just getting tired and everything is getting to me (bills/job/etc)...time to hit the bottle...er...bed

-mini
 
It is hard to compare "required" training at a fast food joint to the training that IS "required" to be that of a flight instructor. The biggest difference that I can see is that it costs peanuts to train a Wendy's manager in comparison to what it would cost a flight school to take a private pilot and train them all the way up to the flight instructor level at the school's cost.

The mentioned flight school is simply implying that "IF" you do the training with "us" (that is available) then we will hire you and give you preference over those applicants coming in from the outside should a position be available once you have obtained the required training and credentials. Is it worth the gamble? Only you can make that call but I surely would consider all variables in the equation.

How many flight hours per month will you be flying?. How much is the starting pay?. Are there enough students to build a substantial amount of flight time quickly?. How much multi-engine flying will you be able to do?. How long before you get into the 135 side? The list can go on and on and on and on and on............

We'll train you to be a manager and then you can go work at Wendy's...it's required training to be a manager (paperwork/payroll/staffing/etc.) so that's okay?
Considering the job title and description, yes....... Two completely different animals.


I think it would have been different if ther would have been requirements listed in the ad "Single Comm" or something like that...something that tells me...I have to posess certain skills/certificates before I can apply for the job, and then I can obtain training to do this job...but still at my cost?
You gotta love the "marketing" techniques in which the sole objective of the ad is to drum up a lot of interest and curiosity in a very short amount of time. It is usually the specific's of what is behind the marketing that is the catch. The mentioned flight school in question has employed these tactics from day 1, nothing new here...

So you're going to hire me to be your CFI as a Private Pilot and then I'm going to give you $25-30K to GET my CFI to make $xx a flight hour??
Basically yes........ Just remember that even though they may "promise" you the world that doesn't mean things will materialize for you when all is said and done. Ask the "dispatcher" about what was "promised" to him 4 or so years ago, perfect example on how things can go just a "tad" wrong.


Thats what seems shady...is that for the unsuspecting souls out there (and I've run into them...hell my family has its fair share) that won't use common sense...walk into the interview...sign the contract and then realize they've gotta drop $X to get what they need to work there.
As long as you do (did) the required research and speak to those who are in the "know" then all is or should be well?. I surely think you are making the correct call on this one.

Not knowing who those are from the mentioned operation that may be frequent viewers of this board I won't go into specifics or any examples of the isolated events.

Keep your nose clean out in OKC and all will be well and I think you will be happy that you decided to go this route. A win win situation in my opinion and it is also pretty much a no brainer.

Whether it be in the business world or in this industry I have always been a fan of trying to minimize as much risk and vulnerability as possible while keeping the odds in my favor.

soak up as much knowledge as possible on every level that you stop at and network network and network, very small industry.

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ps>>

The red carpet has been laid out, dusted off, so now the one and only Mr. bobbysamd may make his grand entrance onto this thread. He is as well versed as they come with regards to this topic so hopefully he can share his $.02.... Still looking forward to the BBQ & beer with ya as soon as I make it back out there...:D
 
Last edited:
"Training available" v. PFT

minitour said:
It just dawned on me tonight as I wander through bills and loan contracts that the school I got my Private at is looking for a Full time CFI...

...the thing that bothers me is the ad says "Full Time Flight Instructor...Training Available"

...common sense tells me I'm going to be paying for my training, but the other part of me is kind of miffed at this "common sense" because of the whole PFT thing...maybe this doesn't count as PFT but I remember when I took my job now (Sales) I didn't have to pay for the training they offered...

...maybe I'm just being stupid and thinking way too in to this, but does anyone else think maybe the guy shouldn't be advertising "training available" if he's not going to provide it?
Here's what I would do: I would ask. "Do I have to pay for my training?"

It could be that in return for agreeing to instruct for X amount of time that the place will upgrade you to CFI-I and MEI. Nothing wrong with that kind of deal.

A P-F-T situation arises when, as a condition of employment, you have to pay the employer and/or its training provider money in return for your company training - training that it ordinarily has to provide a new-hire. A secondary test is if the training results in a tangible credential that can be marketed elsewhere, e.g. a rating. The first test is the main test.

Usually, P-F-T situations arise at some regional airlines and freight carriers, though it would not be unheard-of at flight schools. If your school is a P-F-T situation, then you will have a decision to make. Or, let's say it's what 350 describes, that if you train with them for your ratings you will be hired. There's nothing wrong with that; it is common. At least two of the major commercial schools, e.g. FlightSafety and Comair, hire their graduates. Aviation colleges routinely hired their graduates. That is really the ideal situation when considering a school; whether you can work there after you finish.

Being hired by the school that trained you for your ratings does not fall under P-F-T. On the other hand, as mentioned above, if it wants an arm and a leg for CFI certificates before it hires you, then it should be considered carefully.

Hope that helps. Let us know what kind of situation your school is offering after you check it out.
 
Man, this thread has gotten out of hand.

I read that "training available" thing as one of two things:

1- You're a CFI already, great, but if you don't have the double-I or don't have the MEI, we'll train you to get those tickets on your dime.

2- You WANT TO BE a CFI, and we'll hire you contingent upon your getting your ratings through us, on your dime.

Not PFT at all, in my mind. You have to pay to get these ratings no matter what, unless you are lucky enough to own your own airplane and your buddy will instruct you for free.
 
I.P. Freley said:
Man, this thread has gotten out of hand.

I read that "training available" thing as one of two things:

1- You're a CFI already, great, but if you don't have the double-I or don't have the MEI, we'll train you to get those tickets on your dime.

2- You WANT TO BE a CFI, and we'll hire you contingent upon your getting your ratings through us, on your dime.

Not PFT at all, in my mind. You have to pay to get these ratings no matter what, unless you are lucky enough to own your own airplane and your buddy will instruct you for free.
Right...because WE are all using common sense this is all perfectly clear to us. What about the poor people out there with limited common sense...
Say they check the paper...Chef at Applebees - Training available; Manager at JCPenny - Training available; Flight Instructor - Training available.
the only thing not noted there is you've gotta pay for your "training"

oh well

I'm just gettin all emotional about nothin...its really a non issue for me I just hope some poor sap doesn't get lured in expecting it to be wonderful...its those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** cramps...men get PMS too (Predominant Male Stupidity)

again thanks to all for lettin me vent and tossin in the good word!

-mini
 
gkrangers said:
Normally, people don't just walk in off the street to become a flight instructor.

You have some kind of general aviation background and know you have to pay for your ratings up to CFI..its different from walking into McDonalds...

...says?

You wouldn't believe what kind of people walk in off the street for what kind of jobs...

-mini
 

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