Frontier CEO hints at shutdown

[Shrek]

WHAT was the title of this thread again?!

A slight drift......

 

[Draginass]

I should add this: the recent Supreme Court decision that McCain called the "worst ever", was a decision that protects a right that has existed since the Magna Carta.

The Bush administration wants the ability to declare anyone an "enemy combatant" and send you to prision forever with no right to trial, appeal, or even to see the evidence or charge against you.

Americans have rights. Even prisoners of war have legal rights.

But this new category would have no rights. So what you ask, they are terrorists. Fine.

But what if your ex-wife hates you and tells the FBI you are a terrorist? What if they grab you, instead of the real terrorist? (Say your name is Patrick O'Boyle, and there is an IRA terrorist by the same name). No problem, you can get it all straightened out.
Wrong! If Bush had his way, you would be in the cell forever, tortured (another Constitutional violation BTW), and never get to tell your side of the story.

Luckily there are Republicans and Dems who see beyond all this partisan BS and actually remember we are on the same side.

Stop buying the Rush/Fox news agenda.

ps sorry about taking away from the Frontier discussion. Just that I feel compelled to respond to the inane comments people gratuitously throw in.

Prisoners of War??? So stupid, it's comical. You obviously have no clue (nor probably care) about the international law of armed conflict, the Geneva Convention, nor the rights of American citizens. You do, however, have an agenda that is not allowed to be clouded by facts and truth.

 

[amF16]

To get back on track this was from the Denver post today

Frontier Airlines was forced into bankruptcy protection three months ago by what some considered a technicality: Its credit-card processor demanded more collateral than the carrier could provide.
But Denver-based Frontier's financial situation has quickly deteriorated since the April 10 filing. Its restructuring effort now looks like a fight for survival.
Oil prices have risen 30 percent since Frontier entered Chapter 11. Jet fuel, which accounted for 31 percent of Frontier's operating expenses during its last fiscal year, rose to 45 percent in May and probably climbed higher in June. Meanwhile, stiff competition has kept Frontier from raising its fares appreciably. Frontier hemorrhaged $38 million in April and May alone, after
Chapter 11



posting a $60 million loss for the fiscal year ended March 31. Cash held steady in excess of $100 million through May, but only with the help of one-time gains and bills left unpaid.

Adding to Frontier's troubles, rival Southwest Airlines is adding Denver flights at a feverish pace. The airline, which has 84 daily departures from Denver, will increase that to 95 by early September and 115 by the end of the year. That comes as Frontier cuts 21 of its 175 departures by fall. A few of those flights are seasonal and will be restored in the spring.
Amid all that, Frontier executives are trying to raise the money they need to lift the airline out of bankruptcy. The number could be in the hundreds of millions, and the timing could not be much worse.
Airline-industry woes and the credit crunch are making funding scarce. Those conditions have killed more than one potential airline combination and make it more difficult for Frontier to find a merger partner.
Frontier's best hope is that oil prices drop — closer to the $110-a-barrel range — over the next few months. "It's really tough for Frontier," said Henry Harteveldt, an airline analyst with Forrester Research in San Francisco. "I know Frontier is beloved
in Denver, and I wish I could be more optimistic about its future. But it's already been proven that no city can support three hub airlines."

On Thursday, Polk Majestic Travel Group, a large Denver corporate travel agency, suggested customers avoid booking with Frontier for winter holiday travel.
United Airlines, the dominant carrier at Denver International Airport, has its own problems. United lost $537 million during the first quarter and will cut capacity by 14.5 percent this year. In Denver, United and other airlines have lost market share to Southwest as Frontier's share of seats and passengers has grown.
Frontier has made a series of cost-cutting moves and is working on more to help it weather the storm, spokesman Steve Snyder said. The company has loyal customers and a dedicated workforce.
"Despite all of the negative things you hear about this company, we still think we have a very good story to tell," he said.
Frontier chief executive Sean Menke is still focusing on an early 2009 emergence from bankruptcy, Snyder said. Menke declined an interview request.
A Frontier liquidation, almost unthinkable three months ago, might allow United to secure its grip at DIA, but only if it could free the money to expand. More likely, Southwest could scoop up many Frontier customers and, possibly, some of its employees and gate space at DIA.
Frontier employs about 5,000 of its 6,000 workers in Denver. Hundreds will be let go during a planned downsizing this fall. Frontier rental payments, landing fees and other payments account for about 15 percent of DIA's airline revenue.
The airline's success has long been a source of civic pride in Denver and evidence of the region's economic vitality.
The competitive landscape at DIA is changing quickly. An analysis of capacity data from the U.S. Department of Transportation and OAG Worldwide Ltd., using airlines' announced capacity changes, indicates that about 18 percent of the available plane seats at DIA could be Southwest's by the end of the year. United would have 44 percent and Frontier about 22 percent.
Southwest entered Denver in January 2006 and flew just 6 percent of available seats here last July.
Southwest is flying planes less than three-quarters full in Denver, compared with a load factor of more than 80 percent for United and Frontier, according to load-factor data from Frontier. Southwest can profit while flying more empty seats and charging lower fares because it has locked in fuel purchases at prices well below current levels. Southwest's fuel hedges will be reduced significantly in 2010.
That means Southwest is in a strong position to make big gains in passenger traffic when United and Frontier draw down their schedules in the fall.
Frontier and its employees can rally around a few positive notes — facts that Menke is almost certainly repeating to potential lenders.
First, Frontier has loyal customers in Denver, many of whom pay higher fares even on routes that Southwest flies. Customers like Frontier's assigned seating, friendly service and the cuddly animals on its airplanes and in its ad campaigns.
"From a consumer point of view, more people are getting on Frontier flights and paying more to do it," said Evergreen aviation consultant Mike Boyd. "That's a heck of an endorsement of the market viability of the airline. ... This is an entity that is competing with Southwest and doing a good job at it."
Second, Frontier has relatively good relations with its employee groups, unlike United and other major carriers that have battled bitterly with unions in bankruptcy.
"People really do love the airline. I'm still pretty proud to say I work for Frontier," said John Stemmler, president of the Frontier Airline Pilots Association, which in May accepted pay cuts and other concessions.
"I can't blame them. ... There are so many external factors right now that are just pushing and pulling on airlines."
So far, the bankruptcy has moved smoothly, with Frontier encountering not even a contested motion in court.
A third advantage for Frontier, versus its rivals, is bankruptcy itself. It allows the company to escape expensive leases, return aircraft to lessors and renegotiate debt payments.
Frontier "can ground or take out of its fleet aircraft in a process that's going to be easier for them than a carrier faced with ongoing lease payments on planes sitting on the ground," said David Swierenga, a consultant in Round Rock, Texas.
Frontier owes about $500 million on aircraft financing, some of which it already is whittling down through aircraft retirements.
Part of Frontier's quandary stems from its success. The airline has very little fat to trim, unlike United in its three-year bankruptcy. Menke moved quickly, before Chapter 11, to refocus the airline on its most profitable routes.
Frontier quickly dispatched of one of its biggest operational challenges, a money-losing regional service contract with Republic Airways. Frontier lost $33 million on the regional service during fiscal 2008. It is serving some of the destinations with its Lynx subsidiary, which flies fuel-efficient Bombardier turboprops.
Its popularity with Denver travelers limits what kinds of changes it can make to its service and strategy, Snyder said. Though other airlines are charging passengers to check in a bag, Frontier has refrained because it doesn't fit with the carrier's image. The carrier does charge for a second bag.
The airline is considering changes to its fare structure, Snyder said. Passengers willing to forgo frequent-flier miles could pay less, he said. Menke is considering all options, Snyder said. "He enjoys being the underdog and having someone telling him this can't be done."

 

[JumpJetter]

Red-necks live up north and down south it was not a region specific label. I'm saying people like you [Red-necks]who think, laisse-fare works for everything, are just plain dumb. You fools fall for the propaganda put out by the neo-conservative who only care about their political corporate pac or lobbiest money so they can get re-elected. Cut regulation, drill more, tax less etc etc.....sometimes those are good things to do - BUT NOT NOW under the present cicumstances!!!!

But you didn't rebut my point???? Do you have one....Let me ask you this should we work to dissuade people and corporations of their wasteful and ineffecient tendencies or just let the normal business cycle take its course?

To use Germany as an example they taxed coal power plants and gave subsidies to Wind Power. Now they are reaping the benefits!

Max

Try to respond with out calling me a redneck again, it's not helping your argument.

Let's say we raise gas prices to $9/gallon as you stated via taxes. I will argue the high MARKET price of gas is already doing what YOU want and driving people to live closer and/or drive smaller vehicles. So it's kinda moot, but we'll argue it anyway.

Soooo overnight the gas price doubles to $9/gallon. Let's say we live in Southern California. Who does this doubling of fuel prices hurt the most?

Let's use an example of a guy who makes $30,000 per year working at LAX cleaning the toilets in Terminal 1. Because he wanted a better life for his family, he chose to move to Palmdale, CA, drives a 1995 Toyota Corolla (which gets pretty good gas mileage). He moved to "the Burbs" cause the schools were better and his wife has family who can watch the younglings while he works doubles M-Th so he can have Fridays off with the kids. He can't afford hollywood, he can't afford van nyes, he could afford Santa Clarita, but his wife would have to double her shifts and the extended family can't help with the kids. OVERNIGHT your solution has doubled his fuel price. It's an absolute crushing blow to him. He is not happy.

At the same time a movie producer lives in West Hollywood. He walks to the studio, 'cause he can afford it. Hates the traffic on the 405 and won't touch it with his Mercedes SUV or Dodge Viper he owns. He only takes those out on weekends anyway. He supported the tax hike, cause he thinks to big SUVs are destroying the environment. He figures paying the extra taxes is "patriotic" and doesn't mind it. Shoot, he makes so much you could quadruple the taxes and he wouldn't feel it. He's thinkin' of buying an electric Tesla anyway...they are only 100k..... Driving it will make him FEEL great about his contribution.....he generally feels pretty guilty for the money he makes....

I ask you MAX, who is hurt more by these proposed taxes? Do you really think the wealthy will feel it? I propose the poorest of this nation would be the most hurt and their standard of living greatly impacted.

 

[JumpJetter]

....Even prisoners of war have legal rights.

Prisoners of War are uniformed soldiers from sovereign nations. As an example, spies are not considered POWs under the Geneva Convention. Although they are from sovereign nations, they are not "uniformed soldiers" and have different rights under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists are also not afforded the same rights as POWs as they are not uniformed OR from sovereign nations. Do you and Max see the difference between a Terrorist and a Prisoner of War? You need to be more clear when arguing the point.

By the way, I agree with the Supreme Court Justice writing the desenting opinion regarding the right of terrorists to have legal representation that was recently decided; "that decision WILL result in the death of more Americans"

 

[MountainFreak]

Prisoners of War are uniformed soldiers from sovereign nations. As an example, spies are not considered POWs under the Geneva Convention. Although they are from sovereign nations, they are not "uniformed soldiers" and have different rights under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists are also not afforded the same rights as POWs as they are not uniformed OR from sovereign nations. Do you and Max see the difference between a Terrorist and a Prisoner of War? You need to be more clear when arguing the point.

By the way, I agree with the Supreme Court Justice writing the desenting opinion regarding the right of terrorists to have legal representation that was recently decided; "that decision WILL result in the death of more Americans"

You are missing the point. I don't believe a terrorist should be afforded any quarter, execute them all for all I care. I have helped in the bombing of a few myself. I see from your profile you've probably been even closer in doing the same.

The point is you need a mechanism to show you aren't the terrorist that the government says you are. Many of the gitmo detainees are hardened criminals and terrorists. Others were just farmers caught in the wrong place and time. And what about my example of a US citizen wrongly designated as an enemy combatant. It isn't far fetched.

As to your point about the death of more Americans. I don't know, maybe? But when did Americans become such pu$$ees regarding their core rights? The Patriots in 1776 said Live Free or Die. It wasn't a slogan, they meant it literally.
Today, people give up those very same rights on the hypothetical outside chance something bad might happen. We are a nation of wimps now, and the "tough" right wingers are leading the way.

 

[Max Powers]

Prisoners of War are uniformed soldiers from sovereign nations. As an example, spies are not considered POWs under the Geneva Convention. Although they are from sovereign nations, they are not "uniformed soldiers" and have different rights under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists are also not afforded the same rights as POWs as they are not uniformed OR from sovereign nations. Do you and Max see the difference between a Terrorist and a Prisoner of War? You need to be more clear when arguing the point.

By the way, I agree with the Supreme Court Justice writing the desenting opinion regarding the right of terrorists to have legal representation that was recently decided; "that decision WILL result in the death of more Americans"

I don't know where to begin. Contrary to your belief WE ARE HOLDING CITIZENS FROM SOVEREIGN NATIONS ever heard of Canada or Australia? Ever soviet spy had due process in this country. German spies which were active in the US during WWII were returned to Germany after the war as per the Geneva conventionm, regarding spies.

Many of these "detainees" were taken in the dead of night from their homes and have been siting in Gitmo for over 5 years with no contact and no charges filed against them. Look what people are trying to say to GWB is: "you need to shat or get off the pot."

One prisoner was a 15 year-old Canadian citizen accused of killing an American soldier in Afghanistan. If you read a recent WSJ article there is significant evidence that he may not have actually thrown the grenade. In any event give the fracking kid a trial and throw him in jail forever, if he is guilty. The problem is when you water board someone they will most likely admit to anything and the jury will reject that out of hand. So all you got left is real evidence in the form of witnesses and the likes. Sorry JumpJester I believe in Human Rights.

 

[MJ42]

I don't know where to begin. Contrary to your belief WE ARE HOLDING CITIZENS FROM SOVEREIGN NATIONS ever heard of Canada or Australia? Ever soviet spy had due process in this country. German spies which were active in the US during WWII were returned to Germany after the war as per the Geneva conventionm, regarding spies.

Many of these "detainees" were taken in the dead of night from their homes and have been siting in Gitmo for over 5 years with no contact and no charges filed against them. Look what people are trying to say to GWB is: "you need to shat or get off the pot."

One prisoner was a 15 year-old Canadian citizen accused of killing an American soldier in Afghanistan. If you read a recent WSJ article there is significant evidence that he may not have actually thrown the grenade. In any event give the fracking kid a trial and throw him in jail forever, if he is guilty. The problem is when you water board someone they will most likely admit to anything and the jury will reject that out of hand. So all you got left is real evidence in the form of witnesses and the likes. Sorry JumpJester I believe in Human Rights.

Too bad the people you are talking about DON'T believe in human rights.

 

[Max Powers]

Max

Try to respond with out calling me a redneck again, it's not helping your argument. Sorry Redneck.

Let's say we raise gas prices to $9/gallon as you stated via taxes. I will argue the high MARKET price of gas is already doing what YOU want and driving people to live closer and/or drive smaller vehicles. So it's kinda moot, but we'll argue it anyway.

Soooo overnight the gas price doubles to $9/gallon. Let's say we live in Southern California. Who does this doubling of fuel prices hurt the most? Well you wouldn't raise the tax overnight but you would inform people that over the next 15 years it will happen. Giving them time to make adjustments that what the Europeans did - worked great.

Let's use an example of a guy who makes $30,000 per year working at LAX cleaning the toilets in Terminal 1. Because he wanted a better life for his family, he chose to move to Palmdale, CA, drives a 1995 Toyota Corolla (which gets pretty good gas mileage). He moved to "the Burbs" cause the schools were better and his wife has family who can watch the younglings while he works doubles M-Th so he can have Fridays off with the kids. He can't afford hollywood, he can't afford van nyes, he could afford Santa Clarita, but his wife would have to double her shifts and the extended family can't help with the kids. OVERNIGHT your solution has doubled his fuel price. It's an absolute crushing blow to him. He is not happy. There will always be the naw sayers. The corolla gets about 40 miles to a gallon pretty dooable but when he buys his turbo diesel hybrid he will get about 60-70 miles to a gallon so he can drive pretty much anywhere. Or he can vote to increase mass-transit via new tax initiatives and take the light rail into work. There is always a way people are resourceful!!!

At the same time a movie producer lives in West Hollywood. He walks to the studio, 'cause he can afford it. Hates the traffic on the 405 and won't touch it with his Mercedes SUV or Dodge Viper he owns. He only takes those out on weekends anyway. He supported the tax hike, cause he thinks to big SUVs are destroying the environment. He figures paying the extra taxes is "patriotic" and doesn't mind it. Shoot, he makes so much you could quadruple the taxes and he wouldn't feel it. He's thinkin' of buying an electric Tesla anyway...they are only 100k..... Driving it will make him FEEL great about his contribution.....he generally feels pretty guilty for the money he makes....Your examples are just priceless and make such a good point of how poor you are at problem solving. I'd love to see how you work with a tough gate agent on a quick turn.

I ask you MAX, who is hurt more by these proposed taxes? Do you really think the wealthy will feel it? I propose the poorest of this nation would be the most hurt and their standard of living greatly impacted.

sure they will hurt more with this particular tax but with the other taxes I would impose on the rich they will also pay their fair share to help get our priorities straight.

 

[vixin]

Beyond thread creep.