From Airline to Frax - How's Transition?

[Heavy Set]

I realize that most of the Frax companies are not hiring much at the moment (besides Citationshares), but I was wondering about the transition made from airline (either regional or major) to the fractional companies. I know a lot of pilots have switched over due to either preference or furlough.... We all know that you take a big economic hit (at least initially) - so let's EXCLUDE pay from this discussion. Some questions for you:

1. How was the transition for you in terms of "type of flying" and schedule? I realize that you don't have a set schedule - how was the adjustment to that for you vs. you knowing your schedule and destinations in advance? Do you like fractional flying better than airline flying?

2. Biggest positive and negative for you related to fractional flying?

3. How did you like the equipment you transitioned to? Were you happy or sad with the change? How does your current equipment compare to what you last flew in the airlines (at either regional or major)?


I am looking into the fractional world myself, and I'd like to know more before they start hiring again (it may be awhile...).

Thanks for your honest opinions!

 

[Chairman]

Big lack of Flight Standards and SOP's

 

[GooseHZ]

2 cents

Gun hit on the head...very good post!

my biggest positive is that you get to go all over the USA/Mexico/Canada...you get to see airports that are new to you.....mabye but with 12k TT i bet you have seen most of it

its a fluid dynamic world to fly in...i bet you will find it fun only draw back for you is you will have to load bags


have fun

PM me if you need any info on FLOPS hiring

Fly safe!

 

[AppBrookie]

Positives:
-Glad to have a flying job in new equipment in todays world.
-Neat desitinations

Negatives:
-Huge lack of following SOP's(even the ioe instructors are clueless)
-Schedules Suck for family life: 7 days is too much time away from home.
-Pay: way too much responsibility for pay recieved i.e. you do it all!
-on the road schedules: seems i either sit in a hotel for the whole tour(which can get expensive and boring) or you fly your butt off the whole time.
-never know when you are going back out after 10 hours of rest is up.(2 am wake ups for a scramble tothe fbo are no fun)

Just my opinion: A major job is still the best thing going even with todays paycuts and unstability.

I would jump back to the majors in a heartbeat.

 

[EMB145]

From CALEX to Netjets.

At Netjets:
1. See previous posts.
2. For me pay increase.
3. Load bags, serve drinks, and put up at times with arrogant condescending PAX with loads of $$$.
4. No jumpseat, non-rev. or ID 90.
5. Great crewfood.
6. Paid commute on company's time.
7. Much better hotels.
8. I have to pay attention in flight and on the ground too, as this place and work is rapidly changing, often in flight. Some private airports not just w/o approaches, but not on any charts IFR or VFR. Even the controllers never heard of it. -see previous posts.-
9. Good, apparently mature fellow pilots. I did not hear yet from a 22 y/o ERAU graduate "my captain's authority". So often heard at CALEX.
10. Citation Ultra. -simple, easy to fly AC, but I miss the EMB145-
11. Ultra= no APU/PAC -real hot or real cold at times-
12. Teamsters for Union -hmmm?-
13. SOP's are present and enforced just as much as they were at CALEX. -I refrain from criticizing the SOP or the calls. Opinions like as*holes, everybody has one.-

At CALEX
1. Opposite of #'s 2,3,4,5,6,7
2. ALPA protection - with all the bad things, I liked ALPA and the protection it offered against disciplinary actions, FAA actions or loss of medical.-
3. Easy, routine flying, not much involvement in flight planning, dispatch and such.
4. I personally loved the AC (EMB145), with minor exceptions.

This is it, off the top of my head. I am happy here and I am not furloughed from CALEX. Voluntary resignation for Netjets.

 

[Cliff]

Big lack of Flight Standards and SOP's

Not at NetJets!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FracPilot]

Not at NetJets!!!!!!!!!!!

All the frax have SOPs - I think what he meant is that there are a people that don't follow them as they should. You're going to find that everywhere - maybe the majority of the guys he has flown with are they guys that think SOPs are for everybody else.

8. I have to pay attention in flight and on the ground too, as this place and work is rapidly changing, often in flight. Some private airports not just w/o approaches, but not on any charts IFR or VFR. Even the controllers never heard of it. -see previous posts.

So what do you do in this case? I, personally, do not fly into airports that I cannot get reliable data for. If they are not charted, chances are there is not reliable info on the runway length, width, load bearing capacity, and condition. If there are no standard markings on the runway, it can be hard to tell how long it is just by flying over it and eyeballing it. I have only been assigned a trip to such an airport once, and after flying over it I decided that the data obtained from the owner of the airport was incorrect regarding the length(much shorter), and diverted to the alternate 10 miles away.

 

[infoman]

Frac pilot,

The company policy at NJA doesn't allow us to use uncharted airports, unless they have been reviewed, and flown into by managment. It is the crews responsability to get the info before launch.

Just passing it along.

 

[Cliff]

Has a Captain at NetJets if I fly with soemone that does not follow the SOP or GOM I have a face to face with them in private, like all crewmembers should, to remind them that they are being paid to fly the aircraft by the company rules.. If they have a problem with that I'll be happy to help them find them another job!

There's no room in a professional company or flightdeck for a half-ass laid back approach to company procedures...

NetJets will not tolerate it nor would I!!!!!!!!

 

[EMB145]

Infoman is correct about NJA procedures

The specific runway is in AL, belongs to a plantation. Very nice, about 6000' runway. If you can't eyeball that, there is a problem.
The SOP's at NJA are followed very closely. I only flew with one PIC, who thought he was above all that "crap" "designed for the lowest common denominator". I have encountered a few at my previous job as well and at several majors while jumpseating.

 

[Diesel]

I think i've been to that one in AL. There is also one in TX. I was talking to the owners and they called NJA and said what spec's need to be built for me to land a plane on it.

NJA gave him the specs for weight and size and he had it built. He also is having a GPS aproach made for it too. Very cool airport. It just happens to be the guy owns it.

I've seen both a 2000 and an ultra in there.

 

[FracPilot]

Very nice, about 6000' runway. If you can't eyeball that, there is a problem.

So what happens if the feds decide to question you regarding your landing, and perhaps takeoff, requirements? If you say you needed 5,000ft, and they ask you how you know you had enough...do you say you just thought there was plenty by the way it looked?

How do you know the load bearing capacity of the runway by eyeballing it? Just because somebody tells you the "specs" on the runway doesn't mean that they are correct. I would want such info from a government source or a freelance source experienced in such matters...such as the builder of the runway. Of course, in many airplanes operated by the frax load bearing capacity will not really be a concern - but it does often come into play in the larger airplanes. Want to send a FA2000 into a runway that is only stressed for 20,000lbs? Landing weight is well over that.

NetJets will not tolerate it nor would I!!!!!!!!

I didn't say that either would tolerate it....but have you flown with everybody at NJA to be able to say that everybody follows SOPs to the tee, every flight? I know I can't say it about my company, or even my fleet. I can say that it is not acceptable to disregard the SOPs, but I can't say everybody follows them.

I hope you're not getting as wound up over this issue as it appears by your posts. Getting stressed over a message board is kinda stupid, if you know what I mean.

 

[Heavy Set]

I appreciate the responses thusfar.

Again, I am interested in hearing what the transition has been like for former regional and mainline pilots into the fractional world.

Specifically, I'd like to hear about how you view fractional "flying" vs. airline flying - do you like it better or worse and why?. Also, how do you like the equipment you are on vs. what you LAST flew at the airlines?

I appreciate your answers and any examples you can discuss.


Thanks

 

[Duke of Ale]

Heavy Set:
I came from over 34 years of airline flying and retired off a B-767 flying International to Netjets. The transition was very tough for me. A lot to do every leg and I would almost always forget one thing. The pay really sucks. When I hired on, I use to make more flying one leg to Rome than I did in a whole month here. The new aircraft are nice but tiny cockpits are so small, you can't even put your catered food on your lap to eat. (notice I didn't say box lunch, the food is GREAT!) You get to go to a lot of places that you didn't see at the airlines but most of the guys I fly with are afraid to go more than 200 yards from the hotel, so what difference does it make? I venture out. My first year here was like the longest year of my life but when I finally got the hang of it, it all got better. Still not great but better. Any other Q's you can e-mail me.

 

[750driver]

HS,

Most of the previous posts have outlined the pros & cons for you. For me the pros were as follows:

1. - No commuting / jumpseating worries.
2. - Excellent hotels.
3. - Excellent ground transportation (limos at times).
4. - First rate aircraft & avionics.
5. - Destination variety (this can be a double-edged sword).
6. - Quality crew meals.
7. - Excellent aircraft training & facilities.

The cons:

1. - Longer trip pairings (7-9 days in a row, but greater days off).
2. - Frequent 14hr. duty days.
3. - Frequent last minute trip changes.
4. - Pilots clean & restock aircraft after each flight (if required).
5. - Pilots load baggage, and deal with catering issues.
6. - Frequent non-precision / circling approaches.
7. - Down time between flights can be long at times.

These are just personal opinions, and not meant to persuade Heavy Set in either direction. The intention is merely to inform. Best wishes,

ex-750Driver

 

[English]

Former regional airline captain here, now regional fractional captain on a Citationjet. I don't work for one of the big four fractionals, but rather for a small "regional" fractional where all the owners live in the same geographical region.

"We all know that you take a big economic hit (at least initially) - so let's EXCLUDE pay from this discussion." posted by Heavy Set

My first comment...although Heavy Set wanted to exclude pay from the discussion, I'd like to counter his/her statement. I took a pay increase (almost double) going from Saab captain to Citationjet captain. The benefits are substantially better as well. It seems regional fractional pilots are paid better than the fractional pilots at the big four. Of course, aircraft size plays a part, but at least on the littlest jet it has worked out that way. If you are coming from a major then yes, you are likely taking a pay cut.

The type of flying I do now is very similar to regional airline-type flying on some days, and major airline flying on others. Most trips are day trips, starting in SoCal and going to PHX, LAS, SAC, SFO, SAN, etc. Fly somewhere, wait a few hours and fly back. Instead of having 45 minutes between turns with no time to eat other than fast food, there is time to venture away from the airport and try the local restaurants. Other trips we've been getting lately involve overnights with a little distance. We've gone to several ski destinations and I always pack for a day on the slopes. I never had time at the regional airline to fully enjoy the overnights. We'd go to some great destinations but with a reduced rest overnight sometimes you just can't get out to see the place or partake in outdoor activities. I like the fractional flying better than the regional flying because there is more variety available.

Now, at first I really missed having a schedule set in stone the month before, and there was an adjustment period. But I've found ways to maximize my time off so that I mostly have off the same days as my spouse (also a regional airline captain). So, in this respect, my personal life has improved because we aren't dealing with two different people's bids trying to line up.

The aircraft I fly now has better equipment to some extent. The CJ has an FMS whereas the Saab didn't. But I miss not having GPWS and ACARS. All in all, it was fun flying the Saab but it's good to fly something with some performance. I'm not always down low flying around in the bumps, and I'm not being passed by Brasillias anymore.

I've noticed lots of comments about a negative being the loading of bags, dealing with passengers, etc. I don't deal with a lot of luggage. On the rare occasion that there is a lot of luggage, I just tip the ramp guys to handle it. I've never had a difficult passenger either. I've had some really interesting conversations with many of them, and learned alot about many things I just wouldn't be exposed to otherwise. At least at my job, dealing with passengers is an enjoyable part of the day.

The big negative, if you've become accustomed to them, is losing the flight benefits and jumpseat privileges. Just marry someone in the airlines and that'll be taken care of

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

I came from a regional to Flight Options. Not furloughed, it was my decision. I was a new captain on reserve, 11 scheduled days off. I came over here and got 14 days off per month, minimum. That was a nice change.

I like the fractional flying more because of the variety of destinations. You can only overnight in RDU so many times before you get sick of it. At my former regional, I was based in EWR on reserve and we didn't fly to the west coast (yet). Now it's just the opposite, I never see EWR (thank God) and I'm on the west coast all the time. Flying into Teterboro isn't much fun either, but it beats EWR. We take our airplane into private strips located on our owner's property, go into small island strips in the Bahamas, and still get to visit all the big, busy metro airports around the country. The hub and spoke system can get monotonous. For the variety, I like the frax alot more.

I flew the Jungle Jet prior to this. It was a good airplane for the most part. Had it's computer glitches every once in a while, but you learned to reset everything and they would go away. I fly a Beechjet now, and it's pretty straightforward. Easy systems, easy to fly, easy to land. It doesn't have the EICAS in the middle of the panel, but looking at round engine dials isn't tough. We have four tubes, GPWS, ground prox, all that jazz. It's a very small cockpit compared the the RJ, but we usually don't fly it for more than 2.5 hours at a time.

With the frax, you will throw bags and you will give safety briefings. Even on your worst days you still have to fake being nice to your pax, even the greedy, needy a$$holes who expect you to do everything for them. That can get tough.

With the frax, usually every other leg is empty. You can have fun with the airplane, listen to music as loud as you want and enjoy flying. Some people even get out of their seats on the long repo legs and watch a movie on the DVD player. But I don't.

Being gone from home for eight days is tough, but you get used to it. Being home for seven days is easy, and it goes by way too fast. Usually by the time the week on the road is done, my wife is ready for me to come home. When my week at home is done, she's ready for me to leave. It works out well.

That's been my experience so far. It's not better or worse than airline flying, just different.

 

[wil]

My buddy who left Air Willy for a frac says- "you can take the guy out of the airline but you can't take the airline out of the guy!" He is miserable there as well as some other airline classmates of his- all the best

 

[Frac Daddy]

wil,

Why is your friend miserable at the frax?

FD

 

[mobs]

Wil, I do not fly for a frac,but have applied to due so and I would think that if one looked at what is required in this type of ops. and that it is much more than walking on turning left and taking a seat they should do fine. I look forward to a chance to do this kind of flying,I will go in with eyes open and ready to learn what the owners expect and give them more. Sorry your friends are not happy with this kind of job. Mobs

 

[wil]

This is a good discussion, I think my buddy made the mistake of only talking with friends at Flight Options who left Regionals that were not on par with Willy such as Trans States (no insult intended). Obviously, it is a different kind of operation and it has been his experience, so far, that checklist disipline is lacking- any comments? Fly safe, Wil

 

[Diesel]

what's a checklist?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I think a lot of this depends on where you're coming from. AWAC is awesome, and I think it would be similar to coming from AA, DAL, etc. TSA is definately a "lower" regional (I worked there, and while I enjoyed it, I had no illusions that I would be staying there because it was so great.).

On a similar note: where you're coming from-about SOPs, checklists, etc.

My airline is like a highly standardized 135 operation. If you ask guys who came in from 91/135, they say it's very highly standardized, and most everyone flies the same. If you ask ex-mil (or airline) guys, they say there is very little standardization.

It all depends on what you're used to.

I wouldn't reccomend going from AWAC to a frac, unless you had specific reasons for doing so. Obviously, if you're furloughed, all bets are off!

Cliff
GRB

PS-My airline is planning on allowing us to choose the numbers of days off per month you get, starting next year. The more days off, the less you get paid. I would KILL for a 7/7 or 8/6 schedule!!!

It's hard when you have to be away from home more than two weeks in a row.