Friendly fire incident!

[Huggyu2]

I've never been a "shooter", where I've had to work the ROE, but a few things strike me as significant:
- the FAC tells the at least twice that there are no friendlies in the area; is the FAC taking blame?
- did the FAC get his info from HQ? If so, were they negligent?
- if no one thought there were friendlies there, did the British unit commander violate procedures by not coordinating his unit's movements? If so, he's certainly culpable.

 

[Squanto]

What were the British doing in a Kill Box?

The last entry, touched on this point. A good way to get zapped is for a ground convoy to wander into a kill box. So I don't blame the A-10 guys at all. They were told that there are no friendlies in their A.O....Those guys (A-10) are out for bear anyway. The air/ground FAC has cleared them in. They (FACs) should be the filter here. Only way to reduce Blue on Blue is to not go to War in the first place.

 

[McGillicutty]

Sounds like Manilla Hotel was a JTAC with pretty low SA. He mostly likely received the brunt of the punishment. That being said, the first gun run was made without the magic words from Manilla Hotel. Combine that with firing on coalition marking panels and it goes without saying the pilots had a significant role in the fratricide.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The last entry, touched on this point. A good way to get zapped is for a ground convoy to wander into a kill box. So I don't blame the A-10 guys at all.

Huh? The Hogs were there...as are all air assets, to support the ground forces, not kill them. The ultimate burden rests on the guys behind the trigger to ensure the guys they're shooting are bad guys. If there are ANY Brit tanks or vehicle in your AO, and you're a driver who specializes in killing same...recce is kinda important.

They were told that there are no friendlies in their A.O....Those guys (A-10) are out for bear anyway.

Right. I also understand they were told not to shoot guys with orange panels. The tape has some reference to orange.

The air/ground FAC has cleared them in. They (FACs) should be the filter here. Only way to reduce Blue on Blue is to not go to War in the first place.

Huh? I don't hear a "cleared hot" or "clear to fire" on the tape. Did I miss it?

 

[SIG600]

RJP you sound about as intelligent (and educate on the matter) as DaveGriffin. You two been hanging out swapping "war" stories?

 

[JungleJett]

This has been happening since the first spear was thrown in anger and it will continue to happen. While technology can minimize the opportunity for this to happen, it cannot stop it. Something about the fog of war. It is tragic nonetheless and I feel for the Brit soldier, his comrades and for his family and friends. I also feel for the pilots of these Hogs. They did not strap on that airplane that day hoping to kill some friendlies. What you heard in the cockpit was only a minuscule part of what they were thinking and feeling. With the release of this film, they are having to relive that horrible day and the family of the KIA British soldier are seeing how their son died. Not something I would want to see.

War is hell......

 

[SIG600]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a72b979de

This isn't the HUD from the frat, but I thought it's a pretty good example of being sharp.

Another video that shouldn't be on the internet... I won't say why, but a huge security violation none the less.

 

[RJP]

Occam's said it correctly.

Anyone that thinks this is acceptable is wrong. What kind of intel did those hog guys get on the ground? Shouldn't an O-4 and an O-5 KNOW that orange panels meant friendlies? Yes, they should have.

I still believe that this is a problem of taking reserve guys that have only seen the local range for the past 20 years and dropping them into a combat situation. How many guard units go to red flag? Especially hogs. Are they even invited? Many of these guys are part-time and fly airlines for a living. It's a hobby for some. Now, suddenly, they're thrown into combat and it seems that some of them don't want to RTB with any ordinance.

If they would have taken their time, talked about it to each other a little more in-depth, coordinated with the ground FAC and ABCCC, they MIGHT not have strafed the Brits. Instead, they were in a hurry because they were low on gas and the Lt.Col was determined he was going to attack that column.

Believe what you believe. If you pull the trigger or push the button and kill friendlies, YOU'VE F-D UP.

Thanks for the orange post. It sticks out like dog balls, yeah?

 

[Hobit]

Lots of monday morning quarterbacks......

 

[Der Kommissar]

Did they pull the trigger and kill friendlies? Yes. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

[DarinFred]

RJP, what's your experience with the military? Are you or were you ever involved in tatical avation in the Active Air Force, Guard, or Reserves?

Your post is almost laughable. You know nothing about the Reserve structure today. Some of the most experienced pilot serve in the Guard and Reserves. Quite a few of them are WIC grads. By saing that flying their hogs on the weekend is just a hobby is ignorant. So what's your background?

 

[Hobit]

Did they pull the trigger and kill friendlies? Yes. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

yeah, of course, lets convict them and send 'em to kansas after a few minutes of tape.

YOU WERE NOT THERE

 

[JungleJett]

Why do you bother with this RJP turd? The guy is completely clueless and has probably never seen a day in the cub scouts let alone the military. His comments about the Guard and Reserve prove that.

 

[McGillicutty]

Quite a few of them are WIC grads.

I'm not jabbing at the FWIC dudes, but some pretty basic and obvious procedures were thrown out the window from what the HUD tape shows. Shooting on coalition markings and more importantly, shooting prior to receiving clearance to fire isn't "ideal". I feel bad because this must be the worst thing to happen to these pilots, but it's pretty obvious they too, are at fault.

 

[Spur]

Shouldn't an O-4 and an O-5 KNOW that orange panels meant friendlies?

Hey genius, ever think the Iraqis might put orange panels on their vehicles? They weren't exactly into fighting fair...

Iraqis Plan Atrocities in U.S. Uniforms

Friday, March 07, 2003

WASHINGTON — Iraq is acquiring military uniforms "identical down to the last detail" to those worn by American and British forces and plans to use them to shift blame for atrocities, a senior U.S. official said Thursday.

 

[Spur]

Of course if they did commit atrocities as US soldiers, the joke would be on them...

Better to be an Iraqi fighting US soldiers than a US soldier fighting the JAG. The Iraqi at least knows who the enemy is...

 

[RJP]

RJP, what's your experience with the military? Are you or were you ever involved in tatical avation in the Active Air Force, Guard, or Reserves?

Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't. Think I'd tell you? ******************** off.

You clowns that can sit and defend a friendly fire incident are laughable. It's one thing to believe in what you do and who you do it for. It's another to be so blindly "patriotic?" that you can't even admit when someone screws up.

One more time. Did they get cleared hot by anyone? Did they clarify if those were, indeed, friendlies? Did they take the time to use their binos and VID them? NOPE. On all accounts.

Mistakes happen. These things are bound to occur. That still doesn't shift the blame from those that pulled the trigger.

Iraqis use orange panels? Serbs used inflatible tanks. The VC used people in civilian clothes. What's your point? If those Iraqis had the orange panels and the smarts to put them on their armor, they deserve to get a free pass.

 

[SeaSpray]

I'm not a fan of releasing HUD tapes, but it appears the family of these fallen warriors was not told the true circumstances of their deaths.

I think the family has a right to know if they were killed in a non-combat accident, by enemy fire...or by friendlies.

Two tragedies.

BS. They knew it was a blue on blue incident. The tapes were not released because they were classified. The pilots were cleared of any culpability long ago. Whoever leaked the tapes should go to jail.


SS

 

[Scrapdog]

Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't. Think I'd tell you? ******************** off.

You clowns that can sit and defend a friendly fire incident are laughable. It's one thing to believe in what you do and who you do it for. It's another to be so blindly "patriotic?" that you can't even admit when someone screws up.

One more time. Did they get cleared hot by anyone? Did they clarify if those were, indeed, friendlies? Did they take the time to use their binos and VID them? NOPE. On all accounts.

Mistakes happen. These things are bound to occur. That still doesn't shift the blame from those that pulled the trigger.

Iraqis use orange panels? Serbs used inflatible tanks. The VC used people in civilian clothes. What's your point? If those Iraqis had the orange panels and the smarts to put them on their armor, they deserve to get a free pass.

No dude, you're the f**king clown. What about that BS you spewed about guard/reserve guys being the idiots (especially F-16 pilots). Where's your retort now jacka$$? You need me to write this again in orange for you to understand? That tradgedy could have happened to anyone, there are plenty of AD f**kups as well.

You have no clue. And to say Iraqi's that were and are currently killing our troops should get a free pass because they're "smart" enough to put orange panels on their armor is sick. Yeah, I'm patriotic, and sometimes maybe I am blind to some things (I admit I do have faults). But you clown, are a complete coward.

 

[Hobit]

Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't. Think I'd tell you? ******************** off.

You clowns that can sit and defend a friendly fire incident are laughable. It's one thing to believe in what you do and who you do it for. It's another to be so blindly "patriotic?" that you can't even admit when someone screws up.

One more time. Did they get cleared hot by anyone? Did they clarify if those were, indeed, friendlies? Did they take the time to use their binos and VID them? NOPE. On all accounts.

Mistakes happen. These things are bound to occur. That still doesn't shift the blame from those that pulled the trigger.

Iraqis use orange panels? Serbs used inflatible tanks. The VC used people in civilian clothes. What's your point? If those Iraqis had the orange panels and the smarts to put them on their armor, they deserve to get a free pass.

BLAH BLAH BLAH....
Spoken like some one that has always been on the side lines.....

Go play on the yellow line in the road.