Freezing Rain

s3jetman

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Okay don’t crucify me on this one. I am just asking because, I, unlike some pilots, am not super be1900 pilot guy. I can swallow my ego and ask a question to those who have more experience and knowledge.

I know the FAA will not alloy any AC to operate in “severe icing” thus the FAA has qualified “freezing rain” as severe icing. That is understood but why do I see hold over times for light freezing rain. At my company we are not allowed to operate in -FZRA, when asked why not the answer I get is no plane is authorized. Well why do I see a hold over time for it on the FAA published hold over times. I have no problem not flying in this crap, but I am just curious if any airline has the ability to operate in –FZRA. Just a question on the procedures if allowed. I am just trying to learn something I am not trying to fly in this weather or think we should just looking for some answers
 

kf4amu

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Light freezing rain is different than freezing rain, as I understand.
 

s3jetman

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yea i understand the -fzra is diffent than staight fzra. but are there any special procedures that have to be followed when operating in -fzra. min climb perforamance, could top reports, temp reports that have to be meet?
 

CFI2766

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Flightinfo has long since ceased to be a source of valid flight/aeronautical info.

Someone will make an issue of you flying a 1900, that you might be with GIA, might be paying for a job that someone else could be doing for a salary, which are all valid points.
 

s3jetman

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yea i know ive heard it all. Im still here cause i lost my medical for 5 years 4 months and 4 days. I have paid my dues so i am not getting into this discussion. I am just trying to improve my knowledge so i will be a better pilot.
 

G21Agoose

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Flightinfo has long since ceased to be a source of valid flight/aeronautical info.
What do you want to know? Just ask. :)
 

CFI2766

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It's a fuzzy thing, this paying your dues. Everyone thinks that they suffered more to get to where they are at than you did.

However, do you work at GIA?
 

s3jetman

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just wantig to know if there are any special requirments for operating in -fzra from airlines that are able to do it.

and yes i am a capt for gia based in cle

not saying i paid more than anyone esle, everbody pays his/her dues in some way.
 
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WMUSIGPI

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just wantig to know if there are any special requirments for operating in -fzra from

and yes i am a capt for gia based in cle
If your company doesn't publish a holdover and states that you can't operate in -FZRA then well head back to the gate or divert. Most airlines can with type 4 depart inside the published holdover time with light ONLY not moderate or severe. But that holdover time is very short so you had better be ready and able to depart within a few minutes of deicing.... Perhaps it's because the BE1900 can't take type 4? I have no idea/experience on that plane so I don't know, I do know that the citation 500 series couldn't use type 4 because of the slow Vr speeds and therefor could not take off in any type of freezing rain legally at my old charter company. (not to say others didn't do it)
 

s3jetman

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yes the 1900 can, and we do take type 4. we do have holdover times for -fzra. it ranges lowest 10 min to 40 min. depending on temp and mix. 75/25 lowest and 100/0 is highest.
 

trainer8

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GIA's Ops Specs/FOM and your BE-1900 POH govern your operation into any weather phenomena, including Freezing Rain.

Many 121 operators are permited to operate in light freezing rain. Mine prohibits flight operations into any freezing rain precipitation greater than light freezing rain, PERIOD.

Different aircraft require different minimum airspeeds and configurations and anti-ice equipment operation during operation in icing conditions. These should be clearly spelled out in your operating procedures for winter operations.

In the BE1900, there should be a threshold temp defining icing conditions, which behooves you to operate with inertia separator door operation, boots and prop heat, min torque, min airspeeds and min holding speeds.

Hope that helps.

T8
 

BoilerUP

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WMUSIGPI said:
I do know that the citation 500 series couldn't use type 4 because of the slow Vr speeds and therefor could not take off in any type of freezing rain legally at my old charter company. (not to say others didn't do it)
I haven't had to deice our C-II yet, but I don't recall an AFM limitation against using Type IV...
 

s3jetman

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t8 thanks for the insight,

I am very familar with our ops/om1 taught it for 4 years, there is nothing on operating in -fzra. just fzra and standard icing conditions.

the one thing we dont have is the threshold temp requriement. that sounds like some data we should research. thank you for your imput
 

Cardinal

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Can operate in -FZDZ and -FZRA, but FZRA, go home.

A note restricts our ops during both of the former, in that we must depart within the published holdover time, we can't use a pretakeoff contamination check to exceed our time. Pretty much screws us, any way, the Type I holdover in -fzra is like 3 minutes, can't get the whole airplane sprayed, much less depart.

One question for you, you said you guys have a Type 4 program for your 1900s? For years folks have been telling me it's not possible, and I always thought that was B.S. Vr on a flaps up 1900 is greater than many jets. Is there anything special you have to do operationally? Do you depart Flaps 0, push Vr higher, anything special after using Type 4?
 
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tathepilot

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Flightinfo has long since ceased to be a source of valid flight/aeronautical info.

Someone will make an issue of you flying a 1900, that you might be with GIA, might be paying for a job that someone else could be doing for a salary, which are all valid points.
Come on don't you have anything better to do with your time. How long are people going to beat this GIA thing up. Give it a rest.

Point well taken. Flightinfo use to be a great source of info, esp to me. But you proved your own point by making that useless comment. A valid question was asked and now because of your comment this discussion can turn into a useless thread. If you want to call people names and attack a members character because of where he works (a different deleted post) do it somewhere else because I will not let you ruin our house.



Our popularity has gone in the dumps because people are tired of the childish behavior. The MODS have taken note and we are slowly getting rid of people that have no useful contribution to our forums.

Look around, if you frequent the boards you might notice a few of our 'regulars' have taken extended timeouts. On our new policy, 30 days first time, second time for good. (for the repeat offenders)
 
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ImbracableCrunk

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Okay don’t crucify me on this one. I am just asking because, I, unlike some pilots, am not super be1900 pilot guy. I can swallow my ego and ask a question to those who have more experience and knowledge.

I know the FAA will not alloy any AC to operate in “severe icing” thus the FAA has qualified “freezing rain” as severe icing. That is understood but why do I see hold over times for light freezing rain. At my company we are not allowed to operate in -FZRA, when asked why not the answer I get is no plane is authorized. Well why do I see a hold over time for it on the FAA published hold over times. I have no problem not flying in this crap, but I am just curious if any airline has the ability to operate in –FZRA. Just a question on the procedures if allowed. I am just trying to learn something I am not trying to fly in this weather or think we should just looking for some answers
Could it be as simple as this:

Your holdover times are a cut and paste job from the deice manufacturer or SAE, but your FOM says -FZRN is a no go.
 

trainer8

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t8 thanks for the insight,

I am very familar with our ops/om1 taught it for 4 years, there is nothing on operating in -fzra. just fzra and standard icing conditions.

the one thing we dont have is the threshold temp requriement. that sounds like some data we should research. thank you for your imput
Thats kind of interesting. I flew the King Air series and the 1900 and always used freezing OAT plus 5 degrees (ram air temp...you know, she's so fast) in visable mositure. Eventually went to a straight 10 degrees C as a threshold icing temp. I'm surprised this isn't addressed in your FOM, especially after the inflight icing upsets of the Eagle ATR-72 (Roselawn?) in the 1990's and Comair's Detriot crash in 1997, all icing related crashes.

I'd do a little more digging. I'm pretty sure there is a threshold temp somewhere.

T8
 

great cornholio

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Thats kind of interesting. I flew the King Air series and the 1900 and always used freezing OAT plus 5 degrees (ram air temp...you know, she's so fast) in visable mositure. Eventually went to a straight 10 degrees C as a threshold icing temp. I'm surprised this isn't addressed in your FOM, especially after the inflight icing upsets of the Eagle ATR-72 (Roselawn?) in the 1990's and Comair's Detriot crash in 1997, all icing related crashes.

I'd do a little more digging. I'm pretty sure there is a threshold temp somewhere.

T8
I flew the 1900 at Colgan and its been over 5 years since I left so the info is hazy at best. But I remember that we did take type 4 when needed. A lot of stations didn't have type 4, but with the short taxi you could usually get out with type 1. I also remember that there was a temp limit either 5 or 10 and vis moisture (or unable to verify avoidance of vis moisture ie night time) that the icing "6 pack" had to be turned on.

My current company defines icing as 10 deg or less and vis moisture. That was used for both the jet and the prop. Nothing really has to happen in the jet since if icing is encountered ice protection automatically turns on, but in the prop we had to turn on the basic ice stuff such as engine anti ice etc. A lot of the prop outstations didn't have type 4 due to the short taxi and most of the time the type 1 hold over time would let you get in the air. Then a few winters ago all the rules changed. Now you can't use the one step method and have a hold over time so you must have the two step method. So if you use type 1 then you must get sprayed twice (once to deice once to anti ice) but the short hold over time makes it pointless so its usally better just to take type 1 and 4 so you have a better chance to get out. Anyways over the past few years the deice stuff has become way more restrictive.
 
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