Freedoooom Air Jobs & Jumpseats

[100LL... Again!]

Ziggy1-

I agree with your comment about 'time-building'. However, pilots will drop this time-building attitude as soon as airlines start hiring based on some other criteria.

Not to be too sarcastic, but it's like be saying 'beauty is only skin deep' as an excuse to stop bathing and flossing. The attitude is frustrating, but flight time is the currency of advancement. This does not justify working for Freedom, but it illustrates that as long as there are more pilots than jobs, this will be an unstoppable situation. Market forces are hell.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Ziggy1-

I agree with your comment about 'time-building'. However, pilots will drop this time-building attitude as soon as airlines start hiring based on some other criteria.

Not to be too sarcastic, but it's like be saying 'beauty is only skin deep' as an excuse to stop bathing and flossing. The attitude is frustrating, but flight time is the currency of advancement. This does not justify working for Freedom, but it illustrates that as long as there are more pilots than jobs, this will be an unstoppable situation. Market forces are hell.

Market forces are hell. All the more reason for Mesa pilots to protect themselves. Some of the airlines do (did) hire based on a total package and not just the flight time, although, without the minimum time you don't get a look. My point with the regionals is that these jobs should be real jobs for adults to live on and provide for families on and not viewed by pilots as a temporary thing to survive through. Ziggy1

 

[Simon Says]

Airpiraterob,


are you telling me he's an SOB for trying to stay in aviation? for staying in the air? no tgiving up on flying? doing what he loves for a living and thats flying? FOR TRYING TO FEED HIS FAMILY AND PAY OFF DEBTS ????



YES!!!!! Now you get it airpiraterob. Whenever a SCAB crosses a picket line this is their line of reasoning. They tell everyone that they need to pay their mortgage, feed their family, etc. etc.

Well so does everybody else.

PS you have got to get a spell checker.

 

[Airpiraterob]

spellchecker

yeah i know,
sometimes i just pound out the words and forget to check and hit post. it happens.

but please tell me this. if thats your reasoning, that everyones using that as an excuse, well what about the truth? is it not the truth for many of them? what about the ones that really honestly have to pay for things? what about them?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

They do the same thing that the rest of us have had to do. Go get a real job (which usually pay more than freedom anyway)

That excuse doesn't fly.

 

[WhiteCloud]

They do the same thing that the rest of us have had to do. Go get a real job (which usually pay more than freedom anyway)

That excuse doesn't fly.

You bet! Starting with Freedom (or Mesa for that matter) is a pay cut from WallMart or McD's.

 

[CatYaaak]

They do the same thing that the rest of us have had to do. Go get a real job (which usually pay more than freedom anyway)

That excuse doesn't fly.

There's no "righteousness" on either side of this argument. Working for union-sanctioned peanuts is no different than working for non-union peanuts...they're peanuts all the same. Plenty of ALPA pilot groups have agreed to work for less than their ALPA counterparts working for a competitor, even flying the same colors, yet you don't hear this kind of venom. So what's the difference? If the "brotherhood" trancends all boundaries, then in theory no pilot should accept any union job that pays less than whatever the highest pay scale exists for that aircraft anywhere in the industry.

Having union membership doesn't magically trump the economic reality that accepting and agreeing to work for subsistance-level peanuts is an act that exacerbates and prolongs the problem. Going to work for nothing, then negotiating a contract for next-to-nothing may be a relative improvement or victory within the tiny confines of the in-house arena, but means little on standard of living basis because the baseline was set so low to begin with.

Copping an attitude with Freedom pilots is feel-good sloganeering, perhaps in an effort for some to pretend they are fighting a fire of depressed wages. Conveniently it seems, they forget that they themselves helped build and fed that fire in the first place when they showed-up at new-hire class.

 

[A4Forever]

Just a question( to which there may be no one good answer) Why is it that we, as pilots, will take a flying job that will not support us instead of just hanging it up and getting into a field that will? A refuse collector in SFO makes more than many employed pilots. Most would never consider it! Just an example. We all complain about this guy who works for this or that, but do you think we could ever draw a line that NO PILOT would cross??

 

[RichardFitzwel9]

You bet! Starting with Freedom (or Mesa for that matter) is a pay cut from WallMart or McD's

Its true! Now I don't know the Mesa payscales, but I have a friend at Chautauqua, first year.

My nephew is working at Wal-Mart full time while in college. Last year he made $21k. My friend at CHQ said he made a little over $20k. Thats just plain sad, people.

I know that Mesa and Chautauqua are both in contract negotiations right now, and they are trying to raise the bar as much as possible.

The problem is that they now have to defend better pay and work conditions against "sister" companies like Freedom and Republic. Freedom and Republic people, you've just shot us all in the foot. Why should the companies want to give us more when you are all willing to do it for less?

We all complain about this guy who works for this or that, but do you think we could ever draw a line that NO PILOT would cross??

God I hope so! At this rate soon we'll be on the same payscale as the 13 year old kid that delivers my newspaper after he gets out of school!

 

[WhiteCloud]

To make a line that no pilot would cross would require organization at the Commercial pilot level (250 hours). It would take an already existing large union like ALPA to make that happen. There are probably some legal aspects to this I'm not aware of but it would certainly help stop the downward spiral of wages. All we get from ALPA prior to employment are threats and intimidation if you work here or do this or that. Not exactly a way to inspire loyalty among their future memebers. Ziggy1

 

[Simon Says]

Freedom is not just about sub-standard pay. Mesa has sub-standard pay rates for the aircraft they fly, but through negotiationons and a lot of hard work things are getting better for them.

This Freedom aurgument is about a company trying to hire pilots to undercut the Mesa pilot group which already have sub-standard pay rates and work rules. This tactic is the new age leech on the industry.

Think about this. At one gate a Mesa flight is ready to depart PHX to LAX. At the next gate over a larger aircraft is pulled to the gate with Freedom markings and a couple of Freedom pilots start the preflight and get ready to launch on a trip. All of a sudden the Mesa flight gets cancelled, and an anouncement is made in the terminal that the PHX to LAX flight has had a gate change to the next gate down. The Mesa pilots are not trip pay protected so they just lost out on a couple hours of pay. Mesa hasn't cancelled a flight, in fact they have a larger aircraft that has a less costly crew going to LAX.

THIS IS THE POINT AIRPIRATEROB.

How do these Mesa pilots feed their families and pay their rent when Freedom pilots are stealing their jobs? This is why I am so adiment on slamming everyone of these SOB and will for as long as time goes on.

By the way airpiraterob, I hope you are not one of those names on my list.

 

[hyperboy]

Talespin

Freedom air is a gig that makes all pilots that work for them look bad in the eyes of ALPA but they are certainly not "SCABS". a scab is any union member of any union who crosses the picket line and reaps the benefits of pay during the strike and the new contract after the strike. People can hardly live off of strike pay. While I was throwing bags for NWA and the pilots struck back in 99'. since I was a pilot in training and going to college I supported the strike. Support or not many personnel of the company were laid off as a result. There were SCABS (Mechanics)from previous srikes that didn't get laid off because of seniority., Peolple know who they are and they will get no party when they retire, because they have spit on those they work around. There was know choice in the matter. Scab is a negative word that should not be used to compare with the freedom air guys and gals. SCABS I agree that they are the lowest form of life and could seek work elsewhere while they push for the principles for which the union fights. yet they are selfish. I would not do Freedom myself.....but I certainly would be willing to shake the hand of a freedom pilots hand long before any SCABS. They make me cringe. As a past union member and probably a future union member. I cringe at the thought of SCABS. been there done that....Continue to slip the surlies

 

[Mayday911]

Someone does not have to be a Union member to be a SCAB.

During the UPS drivers strike, almost all of the SCABS were hired after the strike started and they were not members of the union. They are all still SCABS.

Mayday.

 

[T-REX]

Application

Kind of off-topic but I got an application from Mesa. I know Mesa operates a number of carriers but how do I know which Im applying too--- I dont wanna make the list or STEAL anyone's job. Plus my unemployment is about the same as first-year pay and this way I NEVER miss happy hour!

 

[ERJpusher]

About CHQ and Republic...

I know all too well that the payscales for a starting FO at CHQ are low. But, before we get slapped too much for dragging down the industry, please keep a couple things in mind about our contract:

1. The current contract we are operating under has expired

2. We are currently in contract negotiations with the company

3. When the previous contract went into effect, CHQ had only 250-300 pilots with mostly SAABs and only a handful of jets. That contract, when signed was comparable to turboprop carriers at that time.

4. We are now over 600 pilots strong, all jet, and looking for a contract that reflects this growth. We absolutely want the most we can get from the company without biting the hand that feeds us. The company offered a contract with the same payscale as Comair, but at this time, were still unable to come to an agreement on the work rules. We're working on it, everyone!!

As far as Republic is concerned:

Republic is a Jets 4 Jobs deal with US Airways mainline. All of these jets will be staffed with Airways furloughs (which, unfortunately, there is a lot of). The Republic workforce is an ALPA UNIONIZED group. Under current agreements, these pilots will be working at the highest payscale rate for the position they are holding. That will mean roughly $40/ hour for FOs and $80/hour for captains. This company should have little to no effect on CHQ.

I don't agree with a non-unionized group of pilots being pitted against a unionized group under the same ownership (or anyone else for that matter). It is not good for the future of the industry. I hope that an new pilots will realize the ramifications of accepting a job with one of these carriers. "I'm just trying to build time to move on" doesn't fly. There is no point in building time with anyone if you are going to be blacklisted by unions nationwide for the rest of your careers.

Good luck to everyone in their flying careers. I wish everyone the very best!!