Freedoooom Air Jobs & Jumpseats

[RichardFitzwel9]

Have you been in the situation?

Airpiraterob,

The argument that they're doing it in order to feed their families has been played out way too many times before. Are they at fault for wanting to provide for themselves and their families? No. They're at fault for how they provided for their families.

I don't know if you've ever been furloughed or been in a battle between management and your labor union. From your post I can guess not. I have. I got laid off for a year right after 9/11, right after moving to a new city, into a new house, and starting a life with a new wife. So I feel I have a little bit of knowledge of how far I'll go to provide for my family. I'll say this, I'd NEVER go to work at an ALTER-EGO AIRLINE like Freedom or Republic. I pounded the streets for two months being turned away from job after job because no one wanted to hire someone that they knew would quit as soon as they got the call to return to flying(this was told to me in several interviews). I had to beg and borrow to keep my family cared for. There are other jobs out there, the problem is that many of them require more work than what these guys were obviously willing to put forth. I worked as an instructor, refueler, mechanic's assistant, and a construction worker in order to get by.

By these guys making Freedom, and soon to be Republic, work, they are essentially undermining everything that we have accomplished in this industry. From now on, everytime a labor group tries to increase the quality of life for its members, the management now has the option to essentially create a cheaper alternative and transfer flying to it. Its simple, the precedent has been set.....When contract negotiations come around, if the unions don't give into management's demands, they will be replaced.
And not only that, the only way for these new airlines to be more profitable than the existing ones is through cheaper labor costs. Do an earnings comparison between a first year regional FO and a first year McDonald's employee, both full time. The salaries are identical, which begs to ask why would anyone want to make the commitment and investment to become a pilot when they can make the same at Mickey D's?
Next time you go through the drive-through, ask yourself if thats the skill level you want flying your family around in the pressurized tube.

Next time you want a raise or better schedules or better benefits, remember, you are now replaceable whether you have a union standing behind you or not. Like I said, a precedent has been set, and its happened at two airlines now.....Who's next?

I wonder what will happen when Freedom's pilots(next is Republic) are ready for a raise? Perhaps we'll see the emergence of the next airline in the Mesa Air Group family

 

[SkySpray]

Well said, Dick. Using the "I need to provide for my family" is just an easy excuse for many to justify why they went to work for Freedom, scabbed Eastern, etc, etc. From what I understand, a lot of these Freedom F/O's are in their early 20's, recent graduates from Mesa's pilot program, 500 hrs TT, and most likely do not have families to provide for anyways. Just trying to get a "jump start" on their airline careers.


I live in Phoenix, got laid off from AA about 1.5 yrs ago, with no idea of when I'll ever return. Freedom would've been a perfect job for me.. flying a 70 seater in my hometown, quick upgrade, etc. I never gave it two thoughts though, and was able to find a crop-dusting gig... which has actually turned out to be pretty good. If that didn't come along, I would've found a non-flying job. There's ALWAYS something a pilot can do besides fly.. no matter what your background is. adios

 

[Airpiraterob]

in reply only to stiffler....

1.) in no way did i intend to brag. im not that sort. i just painted a reality picture based on what ive done so far. explained what i did. and why i did it. You wouldnt want to do it any more than i have. everyones flown through that. i dont claim to be a badass because of it. i dont recall saying anywhere that i was one. yeah ive seen clouds. ive seen ice. in no way does that sound to me like someone whose trying to be a "badass" Do you always look down on other pilots with less time than you? Do you always try to pass judgement on their image of what they might be like when they have a thoguht on the subject? when they believe an action might not be the right one? you immediately SLANDER them? and thats exactly what you did....it is called SLANDER.

so let me reply to you shall I?

1) So....yeah they chose to work for freeedom. and most likely THEY DID look elsewhere. freedom may have been the only thing logical and good for them and their family at the time. i dont think they intentionally went there to get back at YOU, or your union. are you suggesting they put off an offer to fly and have an income from it and WAIT for the next airline to possibly make them an offer???it just might not happen for a bunch of us. not everyone has that connection or friend to walk their stuff in. did i make a bad career choice making friends that eventually found their way into an airline that folded so that i dont have anyone to walk my stuff in? so these people jsut wait for someone to call. and its not always to be a union airline. it justmight never be. its up to them to call.

2.)so mentioning porn? why? morally depraving youre entire family to make money? youre suggesting all that in jest i know but understand this, in no way am i hiding behind that quote "im jsut trying to feed my family" you need to read #3 right now to understand the whole scope of that line.


3.) ask yourself very slowly and carefully. IF you had no flying job at all. its been a few months. youre about to fall out of instrument currency, and freedom made you an offer. and that was the only offer you had and you had no other so far b ut still hopefull...well......would you take it? your b ills are starting to pile up.......would you take it? hmm?.....its costing you money to live and you dont have rich parents to help.....do you take it? A LOT of pilots are in this position. they can last on their money but noone wants to spend their money or even the tiny ammounts tha tunemployment gives you to live on. they need something bad. keep in mind any job you take now will be reflected in your background check and any future airline jobs will see that you spend 12 months as a used car salesman. do you want them to see that or see that youve been flying the last 12 months?

aparently many pilots had to choose. thats all im saying man is that pilots have to fly. people need to work. and workers need money for their life to function. thats all theyre gonna care about when it comes down to it. they gotta pay for things. they did not do it to intentionally screw your union. they did it to work man.

So youre saying you would hold out for the ALPA job, even if your family was starving? even if you just spent youre last bit of savings on living and that student loan payment? theres a breaking point man. and its getting closer for alot of the pilots out here. and i dont know if youre married with kids or not but if you were.....c'mon...its your family!!! what are you gonna do about them?? the ones that keep flying are the ones that will get the good jobs when hiring comes back. in whatever form that is.

it comes down to an order of options when looking for work. I need to fly, i need to be paid to fly. can i, at this time to work for an alpa airline? IS AN ALPA AIRLINE OFFERING ME A POSITION? NO? WHAT ARE MY OTHER OPTIONS?????????

you paraphrased me saying that i said"screw the picket lines" i never said that. dont ever incorrectly paraphrase someone. its outright lying about what someone said. why are you trying to lie about what i said?

4) please read Ziggy 1's post on this subject regarding scabs. Ziggy may not agree with me at all on my subjects, however he is right. theyre not scabs. please look at the exact definition. discuss with ziggy if in disagreement.

5) by your last paragraph, i dont know what to think about your comments. you havent separated professional with personal. its all muddled up somewhere. who cares what i do in my personal life. who cares what my image away from people at home is like who cares what i do with a motorcycle or what partylines i use. on all accounts youre completely incorrect. im nothing like you describe me to be. odd isnt it? seeing how YOU'VE NEVER MET ME IN YOUR LIFE! i strike you as that sort of person? i have no motorcycle. i have no outward need to show off. im comfortable with what i do and who i am. i dont care who notices it. i never did. end of discussion on my personal life. DID I EVER TALK ABOUT YOURS?

loook, im trying to tell you that some people dont have a choice at all even after looking around and you resort to name calling and blast my personal life? what for? did you not have anything left? did i hit too close to home or something? i never made a comment about what you say to women. i never made a comment about what you drive or what you do in your freetime. yeah i may have blasted the fact that the restricting of jumpseating is unprofessional. so what of it? no cutting down of my personal life will change that. i still think its an unprofessional practice. its mean, its cruel to the guys who really need to get home. its still a terrible thing to do.

you have a choice. work with youre list of names and people who work for "the other guys" who have nothign to do with management's decisions, or start working with your own management and alpa and solve the darn problem.

not letting people jumpseat wont solve the problem. how can it? youre not sending a message to pressure negotiations. youre just pissing people off. and how are angry pissed off people going to solve a problem? you know CRM. relaxed and non-pissed off people get things done more efficiently.

youve read the posts on here. youre closer to the action than all of us it seems. have you read any freedom documents? do you think that those pilots have any more management pull than you do with your company? most likely they have less. so how can they even be part of their management decisions? theyre choice to work there fuels the fire? i dont think so. their choice to work their fuels their family. they just might not have had a choice. again, not very many do. (refer to #3)freedom may just be capitalizing off their misfortune and using them in their giant poker game. wether they want to be used or not. not many are going to quit over it in this climate.
YOUR ISSUE IS WITH THE MGT. OF THE COMPANIES! NOT THE PILOTS!!!!

the only thing about all this that makes me mad is that you dont care its the management. you will still punish the pilots. are you trying to make them martyrs? do you wnat them to be praised by their mgt. for standing up under your pressures? why give them that satisfaction? whatever makes you feel better i guess.

(to everyone)=what ive said in past posts i believe. integrity and professionalism makes a difference in all aspects....except management. where it pays to be sneaky and underhanded. boy have i seen that. please keep the pilot profession respectable. noone needs sneaky and underhanded people in the cockpit. do whatever you decide to do. i frankly couldnt care anymore about it.

and the reality check? #3 scenario man. dosent get any more real than that. its not BS. i know several in that situation. some of them in addition cant keep their wives from spending all their money.

-whatever

 

[RichardFitzwel9]

Airpiraterob.....

I'm not trying to attack you, but have you ever been in this position? I came very close to losing everything I owned while on furlough, thus (if you read my previous post) I scrounged up a part time instructing job, worked the line refueling airplanes, helped out a local mechanic, and worked construction in order to pay the bills and put food on the table. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING. So until you get put into that position like I was, along with several thousand others, please keep your idealistic scenarios to yourself.

It is management's fault, but without a workforce there is nothing to manage. The jobs for these guys probably would have happened eventually within Mesa if Freedom couldn't have been created. In fact if I'm not mistakin, several gave up the jobs they had with Mesa in order to go fly jets at Freedom.

I'm sure these guys were grateful to get a job, but in doing so they've cheapened the industry and possibly destroyed the bargaining power that the union's have worked hard over the years to create. They probably didn't realize they did this when they took the job, and they may not still. Hopefully someone has pointed this out to them. Where are all the Freedom guys, by the way? I'd like to hear from a few of them on their view.

Its already happened at Mesa, now its happening over at Chautauqua. Both groups are in contract negotiations, and wouldn't you know it in both cases there is a cheaper airline formed or being formed. Look at it from management's perspective, why give Mesa and Chautauqua's pilots an adequate increase in quality of life, when there are others (Freedom and Republic) that are willing to do the job for cheaper and under worse rules. And obviously you aren't too familiar with Mesa and CHQ, because I know several people that work there(first years) that have trouble providing for their families with out supplemental income. If Mesa and CHQ's payscales are that low, and Freedom & Republic payscales are/will be lower, they're going to have problems providing for their families too.

They may have done what they thought was good for them, their families, and their career. But it doesn't change the fact that they've hurt the industry, their fellow pilots, and eventually themselves.

I hate to sound all cheesey, but the times suck right now, and we, airline pilots need to be together, Unified. Whether you're ALPA, Teamsters, or anyone else, we are all being pitted against each other. Managements have just found a new loophole to get around contracts and it won't surprise me when two or three more "start up" regionals pop up, coincidentally around contract negotiation times.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Airpiraterob.....
I'm sure these guys were grateful to get a job, but in doing so they've cheapened the industry and possibly destroyed the bargaining power that the union's have worked hard over the years to create. They probably didn't realize they did this when they took the job, and they may not still. Hopefully someone has pointed this out to them. Where are all the Freedom guys, by the way? I'd like to hear from a few of them on their view.

They are laying low as they should. It used to be that these jobs entry level pilot jobs, like Mesa, were stepping stones to the Majors so low wages were acceptable for a little while to build time. Those big dollar jobs are gone (for many years to come) so what's the incentive to work below the poverty level? Pilots need to quit this time building mentality and look at their job as a real job to live on and provide for a family on. The flight time is not going to put food on the table. Fact is that UAL, DAL, AA and many others aren't hiring and wont be for a long time to come if they ever do again. These regional jobs are the way of the future and they need to be real jobs...not just a place for kids to build time. Picking on a few pilots isn't going to make that happen. Require reasonable wages from management. Ziggy1

 

[100LL... Again!]

Ziggy1-

I agree with your comment about 'time-building'. However, pilots will drop this time-building attitude as soon as airlines start hiring based on some other criteria.

Not to be too sarcastic, but it's like be saying 'beauty is only skin deep' as an excuse to stop bathing and flossing. The attitude is frustrating, but flight time is the currency of advancement. This does not justify working for Freedom, but it illustrates that as long as there are more pilots than jobs, this will be an unstoppable situation. Market forces are hell.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Ziggy1-

I agree with your comment about 'time-building'. However, pilots will drop this time-building attitude as soon as airlines start hiring based on some other criteria.

Not to be too sarcastic, but it's like be saying 'beauty is only skin deep' as an excuse to stop bathing and flossing. The attitude is frustrating, but flight time is the currency of advancement. This does not justify working for Freedom, but it illustrates that as long as there are more pilots than jobs, this will be an unstoppable situation. Market forces are hell.

Market forces are hell. All the more reason for Mesa pilots to protect themselves. Some of the airlines do (did) hire based on a total package and not just the flight time, although, without the minimum time you don't get a look. My point with the regionals is that these jobs should be real jobs for adults to live on and provide for families on and not viewed by pilots as a temporary thing to survive through. Ziggy1

 

[Simon Says]

Airpiraterob,


are you telling me he's an SOB for trying to stay in aviation? for staying in the air? no tgiving up on flying? doing what he loves for a living and thats flying? FOR TRYING TO FEED HIS FAMILY AND PAY OFF DEBTS ????



YES!!!!! Now you get it airpiraterob. Whenever a SCAB crosses a picket line this is their line of reasoning. They tell everyone that they need to pay their mortgage, feed their family, etc. etc.

Well so does everybody else.

PS you have got to get a spell checker.

 

[Airpiraterob]

spellchecker

yeah i know,
sometimes i just pound out the words and forget to check and hit post. it happens.

but please tell me this. if thats your reasoning, that everyones using that as an excuse, well what about the truth? is it not the truth for many of them? what about the ones that really honestly have to pay for things? what about them?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

They do the same thing that the rest of us have had to do. Go get a real job (which usually pay more than freedom anyway)

That excuse doesn't fly.