Freedomb all ready taking Mesa flights

[jetdriven]

Mesa = 20 (J4J so we cut that in half) = 10 - "4 CRJ's this year" - "an additional 2 more in feb" = 4 additional Mesa aircraft. Not a big number, but still growth. USAirways is still furloughing and AWA will only be hiring for attrition, not growth

if you call 4 new planes in a year and 1/2 growth here's the other part of it. AMW just pulled down 3 1900D's this month alone, and are looking at pulling down 4-6 more. Two years ago we had 57 B1900D's, now we are going with 37. If you want to see growth just look at every other regional out there besides mesa.

FGA never "took" ALG's flying. they were a separate company under no ties to ALG. Just as if AirWis decided to replace us some routes, that would be ethically right. Freedom is CONTROLLED by Mesa Air Group, the parent company of Mesa, AMW, CCAir, and Freedom. there's no "fair" competition when all the companies are centrally located. Ask a CC pilot why a CC flight is cancelled then a Mesa DHC-8 does the same run 15 minutes later with a MESA flight number. AMW is getting charged 250$ per hour by Mesa for accounting when the market rate is 100$. it's all a big shell game. Was JEDI or Chewie2 or any of the other partnerships not controlled by ENRON? same thing here.

How did you "pay" for the 70 seaters? By taking ALG pilot jobs years ago. Or, by supporting JO when he wanted to side step an ALPA contract? Maybe payroll deduction? By doing your job, getting paid, and enjoying your life?

JO's siren song is how low wages equals future growth. So we bought into that crappy idea then he gives the "growth" to another division and locks us all out of it! we never took ALG's runs just like SWA didnt "take" BOS-LAX.

Freedom was created to work around the Mesa pilots contract. If it were one seniority list and one contract you bet your A$$ we would have bid over there! The best they got was a handful of managent pilot buttkissers and about 25 line pilots. Out of 1250. We voted with our feet, alright. we might get to vote again that way.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Freedom Fighters!

Freedom Fighters! The true defenders of Freedom; NOT the airline. NMB is about to settle this issue once and for all. The buck has got to stop somewhere. Mesaba Pilots & all other airline pilots should thank the Mesa Freedom Fighters for drawing a line and saying THE BUCK STOPS HERE.

 

[RJFlyer]

You completely miss the point of this entire issue. The problem isn't that Mesa Air Group wants to fly 70-90 seat jets for AWA. The problem is that they want to create a non-union carrier to do it while at the same time trying to bust the Mesa pilot's union.

No, it appears you are missing the point. This situation would probably not have existed if it weren't for U scope. It just resulted in the side benefit (in Mesa mgmts eyes) of screwing the Mesa pilots. Whether you like it or not, the pilots who go to work for Freedom are NOT scabs and do not deserve to be looked down upon just because they're not ALPA and not on your seniority list.

If JO wants to fly 70-90 seat jets for AWA, I say more power to him. But he has to do it within Mesa and use Mesa's union pilots.

Once again, he CAN'T because of U scope. How hard is that to understand?

How would you like it if DCI took the remaining 70 seaters to be delivered to ASA and created a new company to fly them with non-union pilots. Something tells me that you might object just a little.

I wouldn't like it a bit, but that situation is in no way relevant to yours. Why don't you ask a USAir WO pilot what he thinks of the J4J deal? Same situation, just happens to be an "ALPA shop."

P.S. I don't blindly follow ALPA. I also form my own opinions using the facts. It just so happens that the facts support ALPA about 99.9% of the time. Wish I could say the same for the RJDC.

Is that so? How then do you explain a quote such as this:

"We employed 500 nonpilot flight engineers on EAL, and we had taken care of them. But Robertson (FEIA president) called them out, all 500, and we had no choice but to break them."
- Capt Jerry Wood, EAL, as quoted in Flying the Line p. 185

This is in reference to the non-ALPA, non-pilot flight engineers being called out to strike, and ALPA replacing them with ALPA members to break their strike (can you say "scab?"). This must be that one time in 1,000 when ALPA's been wrong, though, right?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's crappy that JO is doing this to you guys. But to sit here and gripe about the pilots who choose to work there - and blaming it on them - is missing the point. It's not their fault, and they can't be expected to pass up a jet job simply because you disagree with JO's methods. IT"S NOT THEIR FAULT. Instead of lambasting them, why don't you try to bring them into the fold and effect some kind of seniority list merger (DOH would work for you, wouldn't it?)?

 

[D8drvr]

FloridaGulf and Allegheny were under the USAir Group, just like Mesa and Freedom are under the Mesa Group. Your assertion is that noone should work for Freedom because the "work" is being taken from Mesa. My assertion is that FloridaGulf KNEW the "work" was being taken from Allegheny and said "I don't care, me first".

 

[jetdriven]

FloridaGulf and Allegheny were under the USAir Group, just like Mesa and Freedom are under the Mesa Group.

that's where you're completely wrong. FGA was a MESA OWNED COMPANY. CONTROLLED BY MESA from the start. Allegheny WAS NOT. Separate companies, just as separate as Air Wisconsin and Skywest, even though they fly under the same code.

Are you saying that SWA "TOOK" the BOS-LAX runs from USAirways?

 

[CRJ200FO]

No, it appears you are missing the point. This situation would probably not have existed if it weren't for U scope. It just resulted in the side benefit (in Mesa mgmts eyes) of screwing the Mesa pilots. Whether you like it or not, the pilots who go to work for Freedom are NOT scabs and do not deserve to be looked down upon just because they're not ALPA and not on your seniority list.
Once again, he CAN'T because of U scope. How hard is that to understand?

First, let's clarify something. It's not my seniority list. I don't work for Mesa, I work for Pinnacle. Now, as for the U scope. Creating Freedom under a different certificate to avoid U scope is not the big problem here as everyone keeps saying. The problem is that Mesa pilots are not being used to fly under this new cert. If JO wanted to start Freedom with Mesa pilots under one list and one contract then noone would be complaining. This is about union busting, not U scope. And I agree that they are not SCABS, but they are almost as bad and they should be looked down upon.

I wouldn't like it a bit, but that situation is in no way relevant to yours. Why don't you ask a USAir WO pilot what he thinks of the J4J deal? Same situation, just happens to be an "ALPA shop."

Actually that is exactly the same situation as Mesa's. J4J is the completely different issue. I'll remind you that all the WO's who have established J4J voted on it and approved it. U didn't force J4J on the WO's, they agreed. Yes there are many WO pilots opposed to J4J (I have several friends at PDT not too happy), but they can either accept it or everyone under the U umbrela will be out of a job pretty soon when chapter 7 becomes necessary.

Is that so? How then do you explain a quote such as this:This is in reference to the non-ALPA, non-pilot flight engineers being called out to strike, and ALPA replacing them with ALPA members to break their strike (can you say "scab?"). This must be that one time in 1,000 when ALPA's been wrong, though, right?

No actually ALPA was right then IMO. How 'bout you go read the rest of that chapter and read just how uncomfortable a situation it was to have FEIA members in ALPA cockpits. Those positions were rightfully ALPA positions in the first place and were filled by non-pilots that should never have been there. ALPA pilots were not scabbing by takeing those positions, they were taking what was rightfully there's to begin with. But that's another debate.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's crappy that JO is doing this to you guys. But to sit here and gripe about the pilots who choose to work there - and blaming it on them - is missing the point. It's not their fault, and they can't be expected to pass up a jet job simply because you disagree with JO's methods. IT"S NOT THEIR FAULT. Instead of lambasting them, why don't you try to bring them into the fold and effect some kind of seniority list merger (DOH would work for you, wouldn't it?)?

Merging the list would require a single carrier filing and would take quite a long time to complete if the almost-scabs at Freedom would even be interested. I guess we shouldn't blame the SCABs that crossed CAL in '83 or EAL in '89 either right? They were just trying to get a "jet job" too weren't they? As you say, "IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT." Yes JO is a piece of sh!t, but so are the almost-scabs that are working for Freedom.

 

[hhab]

RJflyer: No, it appears you are missing the point. This situation would probably not have existed if it weren't for U scope. It just resulted in the side benefit (in Mesa mgmts eyes) of screwing the Mesa pilots. Whether you like it or not, the pilots who go to work for Freedom are NOT scabs and do not deserve to be looked down upon just because they're not ALPA and not on your seniority list.



RJflyer: Once again, he CAN'T because of U scope. How hard is that to understand?



DoinTime: I'm sorry but you are the who is wrong. Mesa does have three separate operating certificates but every one of them code shares with US Airways therefor they all fall under the provisions of US Airways scope. I don't know if Freedom would have been formed if Mesa would have been allowed to put the big CRJ's on one of their existing certificates and unfortunatly we'll never find out. Seeing is that JO had to spend the money to start up a new certificate you can bet that he would find a way to get that money back. I'm not defending that worthless heap of sh!t but US Air scope gave him the perfect opportunity to put the screws to organised labor.
<<<<<<<<<<<<



Let me try to explain this to you two since you are so focused on that point.

Before Freedom was started Mesa AG had 3 certificates: Mesa, Air Midwest and CCAir. As we all agree, U's scope prevents either of the 3 to have larger than 50 seats jets as long as that SPECIFIC certificate does flying under U;s codeshare.
OK,That tells me that if ( as an example ) Mesa transfered their ERJ's and -8's that fly in U's color over to Air Midwest, then Mesa AG WOULD NOT have to create a new certificate because Mesa Cert is free of U;s flying.
Or even a less expensive way to do it: CCAirs 3 or 4 Dash-8 ( at the time ) over to Mesa cert ( with one seniority list for all Mesa/ AM/CCair pilots like the union have pushed for so many years) and you would have another cert free of U's flying ( now you can put the 70 seaters on that cert.) The cost of moving a few aircraft over to Mesa cert? Not even a fraction of the cost of starting Freedom........

Because of this, it is to assume that mesa management has other reason to start Freedom.

Comprende?

Cheers!

 

[hhab]

CRJ200FO, good post.
<<<<<

WO's right to fly U's flying, WO's own protection of flying ( or the lack of it ), J4J, U's furlong pilots, ALPA , RJDefence, Scope etc,etc... to many personal feelings going on here creates interference about what this issue realy is about: J.O might try to start a new Lorenzo tend?
NW Management just bought BigSky and I hope they have other plans with that cert than start trying crush union with it like J.O seems to be trying.

Take care.

 

[CatYaaak]

Dru writes: "..Remember, you chose to take a mortgage, you chose to rack up your bills - don't take it out on the rest of the industry because you can't handle your finances. Again, look at the big picture. Understand your profession and realize that taking such risks as a mortgage may not be the smartest move. Don't blame the rest of us for your problems"....

First, If someone "couldn't handle their finances" or just "racked up bills", a lender would never have allowed them to secure a morgage in the first place. Lenders are a he11 of a lot better at judging someone's ability to be responsible with money than you.

Second, since when did securing a morgage become a financially irresponsible act? Real estate appreciates in value, and garners tax advantages that are not realized when one rents from a landlord. Owning your own property where you and your family live is a very basic part of what many consider to be pursuing happiness, and frankly if you DO have children, I would consider renting for the rest of your life to be irresponsible since you are wasting money that should be spent doing things that will secure their future.

You sound very ignorant of some very basic adult issues, and are using that ignorance in an attempt to futher your baseless statements that try to imply that anyone who doesn't do it YOUR way is destroying the Industry. That's akin to someone telling you the last time you didn't recycle something recyclable that you are "destroying the planet". Old-codger pilots accuse us all of us of "destroying the Airline Industry" because we accepted piloting jobs post-deregulation ("well, if these young, selfish, pilots didn't take these new de-regulated jobs we could get back to the regulated gravy train").

I'm a member of ALPA and would never cross a picket line, but on the other hand I find your lectures to others (who may have been unexpectedly fuloughed) who took on greater responsiblities in order to secure a better standard of living for their families to be sophmoric, and consider them to be the sign of someone who doesn't have any.

 

[D8drvr]

Ok, I'll try again.

USAir controlled, and still controls, who does the flying for USAir (WO or contract). Mesa Group controls who does the flying for Mesa (Mesa, Freedom, etc.) Can you see the parallel I'm drawing?

Years ago, USAir took flying from Allegheny and gave it to Mesa (Mesa then portioned it out to FloridaGulf). Was this legal? Yes. Was it ethical? ... Those are the corporate questions.

Did the non-union new hire pilots at FloridaGulf know the jobs they were taking were created from the furlough of ALPA Allegheny pilots? I don't know, but I believe they did (and didn't care about another airlines furloughs, they WANTED a job and took it).

(This leads back to comments on the board as to how ALL Freedom pilots should know ALL the issues involved with the Freedom/Mesa deal. Do the Freedom pilots know? I don't know).

Now let's look at today. Remember the earlier parallel. (Are there questions about the parallel I'm making? USAir had a bunch of flying and decided who would do it. Mesa has a bunch of fly and decides who will do it)

Mesa Group has flying to porition out to its subsideries. It's going to give some to its new company Freedom. (What effect this has on the other subsideries has yet to be seen). There are thousands of unemployed pilots who NEED a job. Why not take the job? By example, I believe that the FloridaGulf (now Mesa) pilots have shown that this is an OK thing to do. (Said another way, years ago the FloridaGulf pilots took flying jobs regardless of how the jobs were created; now, they should have no problem with a Freedom pilot taking a job regardless of how it is created. See the parallel?) I say take the job and provide for your families. If management treats you badly at Freedom, then vote in ALPA; just like FloridaGulf did.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[D8drvr]

And speaking of parallels....

I hate to see any flying disappear, but to believe that B1900 flying is being directly replaced by a 70/90 seat RJ is not a parallel I would draw. These aircraft serve completely different markets.

 

[DoinTime]

Let me try to explain this to you two since you are so focused on that point.

Before Freedom was started Mesa AG had 3 certificates: Mesa, Air Midwest and CCAir. As we all agree, U's scope prevents either of the 3 to have larger than 50 seats jets as long as that SPECIFIC certificate does flying under U;s codeshare.
OK,That tells me that if ( as an example ) Mesa transfered their ERJ's and -8's that fly in U's color over to Air Midwest, then Mesa AG WOULD NOT have to create a new certificate because Mesa Cert is free of U;s flying.
Or even a less expensive way to do it: CCAirs 3 or 4 Dash-8 ( at the time ) over to Mesa cert ( with one seniority list for all Mesa/ AM/CCair pilots like the union have pushed for so many years) and you would have another cert free of U's flying ( now you can put the 70 seaters on that cert.) The cost of moving a few aircraft over to Mesa cert? Not even a fraction of the cost of starting Freedom........

Because of this, it is to assume that mesa management has other reason to start Freedom.

Comprende?

An interesting angle but somehow I doubt that it is that easy to accomplish.

 

[AOPAPILOT]

The pilot unions had better wake up and start thinking in terms of what it is going to take to save each airline in this time of uncertainty. All an airline has to do is file for chapter 11, and at that time, the union contract is null and void. The airlines can call the shots at this time and there is only one thing we pilots can do is take it or leave it. What are we going to do? Slow down flights as a means to break managemet? Ground planes for minor maintenance issues? Where is Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff, to name a few. They are distant airline memories. Where were the unions when corporate raiders were cutting the guts out of the airlines so they could line their pockets and the stockholders of the holding companies. Boeing is in the drink because of competition from foreign countries that support airplane manufactures. Strike and remember, it is the PAX that really pay our wages. How long will it take for the Comair pilots to gain all the lost $$ in their latest strike? The PAX will not want to fly on an airline that has a bad reputation for late arrivals. Take a look at the steel mills that no longer exist. Union fought long and hard but in the end, the business was out-sourced over seas due to cheaper labor. Do you think that the rail industry is in the drink because of poor management or due to high labor costs? All you have to do is go to Europe and see how efficient their rail system is. Look at the auto industry that now has most of the parts made in another country other than the good o'l US of A. That guy that pushes a broon in the unionized auto factory makes more per hour than we do as new regional pilots. When the price of auto's go out of reach for the normal working stiff, this too will go over seas as some of it is now. It is a lost cause because of the supply and demand side of Economics 101. How much did you make as a CFI? Why are there no national unions for CFI's? Why hasen't ALPA formed a union for CFI's? There will always be someone to work for less than you if it means putting food on the table or not working.

All airline unions have a time and place when it comes to wages and benifits, but in this troubled times, unions need to tread lightly or there won't be an airline with union members.

 

[DruDown]

Cat,

First off, I don't want this whole issue to continue on as a personal character debate. All I'm saying, is people in this industry, and everywhere else, need to evaluate their own situation - family, finances, happiness, etc. before making decisions that affect them and their families in a negative manner. If I had a mortgage and a family when I decided to pursue an airline career, then common sense would have told me that without my wife working or money coming in from somewhere else, that I would not be able to afford a mortgage, afford a car, etc.

How am I ignorant? I don't have the bills, I don't have the hassels. I understood from the beginning what I was getting into. I understood that I would be living in poverty or close to it before I took the job. I didn't put my family's well-being on the shoulders of a career that I knew and know to be a very volitile.

The "ADULT" thing to do was for me to evaluate my situation, my finances, my "happiness," determine if I could afford to take the plunge into the world of commercial flying. I organized my life around the fact that I would be only making pennies. I have made many personal sacrafices to make this a career for me. I did not start a family, buy a house and car and then tell my family, by the way I'm shifting careers into commercial aviation and will only be bringing home enough to barely eat. That would have been the ignorant decision.

I have not taken this job, knowing what I am making, buy a house, start my family, etc. in the first couple of years because I know I can't afford to do so. I can't afford a mortgage payment - thus I don't own a house yet. I can barely feed myself - thus I don't have kids. I didn't start my career in commercial aviation without doing my research to find out what I would be making and what my lifestyle would be like - thus I don't have outstanding financial commitments or an abandoned family.

Tell me, how am I the ignorant one? No one forced anyone who is on furlough to take the job in the first place. No one forced anyone to buy a house and car on a regional airline pilot's salary. These decisions were personal decisions made by individuals. Unfortunately for them, they have to deal with the realities of those decisions and the realities of the industry they have chosen to work in. Some of those realities include low wages, unions, and a low-profile lifestyle.

Because someone has made some poor financial decisions, considering their job environment, that gives them right to stab every other pilot in the back? Yes, we keep hearing about what Mesa did with Florid Gulf and ALG, and it sucked. But, why let it happen again? We are in a position (by we I mean commercial pilots everywhere) to stop this atrocity from happening. Not just at Mesa, but also Mesaba, and any other company that is or will deliberately try to sidestep the union, sidestep their employee group, and screw everyone. Let's not let more pilots continually get screwed.

While the jobs at Freedom are tempting, again let's do the research. Let's look down the road a bit and see what the consequences are of letting this airline get off the ground. They are far more devastating for everyone down the road then they are positive for the few who go over there - not to mention, the positive outcomes are only a quick fix.

By helping the Mesa guys out, we help out the rest of the industry. We set a precedent that the managment at Mesaba is going to have to follow, now we're helping the Mesaba employee group out. we're setting a precedent that Delta is going to have to follow with Comair and ASA, Continental with CoEx, and this list goes on.

Let's ALL (myself included) stop being, ignorant, arrogant, narrow-minded, and self-centered. Let's all look at the big picture, look at the near and far future and let's all make educated decisions and try to help each other out.

 

[D8drvr]

DruDown said

"I didn't put my family's well-being on the shoulders of a career that I knew and know to be a very volitile...."

Do you plan to retire from an aviation/airline career?

If you do plan to stay in aviation/airlines you are saying that you will never have a wife, children, house, or new car. Of course, to not have any of those things is your choice.