Freedom Air questions...

[surplus1]

Surplus1,
With all due respect, I think your solution is nothing but self-serving. There is nothing wrong with wanting a better situation for yourself, but don't claim it's the solution to the scope issues we have in this industry.

It is self-serving for the pilots of DAL/CMR/ASA and that is who it was designed to serve. I did not claim it was a solution "for the industry". I was asked what I would do in the Delta/Comair/ASA scenario.

Modifications of this solution could easily be adopted to each of the scenarios in which one Company owns several airlines. It is not intended to provide for subcontracting, which I believe should never have been allowed in the first place and, if possible, should be corrected now.

First of all, you say there will no more new flying given to subcontractors and that their contracts will not be renewed when they expire. If your so called solution is applied throughout the industry half the regional pilots would be out of work: CQ, SKYW, ACA, TSA, MESA...

I regret you see it that way but you need to know that I see no reason why pilots in the Delta system should want to outsource or subcontract their flying to others. Delta pilots, when they were alone, didn't want to do that. We were forced together and we have to live with it, but there is zero reason why we should want additional outsourcing of our work.

Again, it was not intended to be applied "throughout the industry". This solution is for Delta. A similar solution could work for CAL/XJT, AA/AE and could have worked on the U property (probably too late now). It would not put anyone out of work. The companies you mention are all independent carriers. All of them have multiple contracts, some with several different airlines at the same time. They can continue to do that. Their current contracts with Delta have many years to run, giving them ample time to make changes and adjust.

Additionally, if Delta were to replace them by phasing them out with its own, and equal number of new vacancies would be created at Delta along the way. I personally would be quite willing to do everything possible to help SKYW pilots and ACA pilots that might become redundant to get jobs. Realistically, that is 8-10 years away so why don't you give it some more thought.

Out of curiosity, is there any chance that you happen to work for one of them?

As for the no flush provision, no comment there obviously. You will get all the upside in this deal, while the contract carriers and mainline pilots get screwed.
Everybody asks what's in it for me. I don't think mainile pilots or MGMT will go for your "solution".

First I will assume you know what a no flush provision is. Am I right or wrong? Secondly, there is no "upside" for CMR/ASA that is superior to the "upside" for Delta pilots and it is deliberately designed not to screw Delta pilots, but to help them. Gains or benefits to CMR/ASA pilots from such an agreement would be long in coming (due to the furloughs).

In case you haven't noticed, there are nearly 1000 Delta pilots currently on the street. This proposal makes the most junior Delta pilot senior to the most senior CMR/ASA pilot. That means that all future vacancies, including all new positions generated by additional aircraft deliveries and every upgrade could be filled exclusively by furloughed Delta pilots until every last one is recalled. Just how do you figure that "screws" Delta pilots?

Delta pilots would gain immediate and first access to every 70-seater delivered, every new 50-seater, and every upgrade by virtue of their seniority. All ASA/CMR pilots would in effect be frozen where they are until the furloughees are recalled.

In case of any new furloughs, CMR/ASA pilots are the ones that would be furloughed. The only protection they have is that they can't be displaced from their present positions unless they successfully bid out. Just where are they going to "bid out to" with 1000 DAL pilots on the street?

You think mainline pilots would object to that? OK, I don't (except for the ones that aren't too bright). I think most can grasp it including the parts that you seem to have missed.

Obviously it would take some convincing to get Management to accept the proposed concept or any other. Whatever solution we come up with for the Delta System, it must not be disadvantageous for the Company. The survival and success of Delta Air Lines is just as beneficial to the pilots of the Delta system as it is to management. I'm sure we could work something out.

The fact that it does not attempt to force a detrimental merger and therefore permits continued cost control is especially beneficial to management. Many current costs could be eliminated or reduced significantly if we did this, essentially none would increase.

I bet if Comair was still a contract carrier, you woudn't be advocating this.

That's because you don't know me. You would lose the bet. When Comair was a contract carrier I never raised any objections to Delta scope and I have always thought it was rediculous for ALPA to create scope exemptions and subcontracting. That's exactly why we have the problems we have now.

The only fear I had as Comair was that Delta would buy us, which I did not want and still regret that it happened. Comair was quite capable of making it without Delta and quite frankly I wish that opportunity had not been taken away from us by the Delta purchase of my airline. They did us no favors.

All regionals aren't the same and never have been. That's a popular misconception. Everyone wants to lump us into the same basket. Well you think the way you want to but I assure you that I had no interest in being bought by Delta and wanted no number on their list or any other. The only number I wanted was my own number on my Company's list. I'm still grieving over the loss. Sorry buddy, but you just don't understand.

By the way, I'm far from being the only Comair pilot that thinks that way. Almost everyone that was there when we were bought shares my views. Those hired since are still too new to understand much of anything.

Sorry you don't like the concept but it was not designed for you and it was not designed for the industry. It was designed for Delta and Delta system pilots.

Regards

PS. I don't mean to offend but based on your other posts to Metro, you sound just like a part of middle management that doesn't have the big picture and struggles with creative thinking while afraid to venture out of the box. Progress isn't made that way. This type of proposal needs some thought at the CEO level and will be over the head of most mid-level managers like the portfolio advocate.

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus,

I really don't see how your proposal for integration would benefit Delta pilots in any way, or anyone for that matter except your pilot group.

I mean let's face it... unless you are willing to furlough 900+ pilots at Comair and ASA in a true staple job, I don't see how you are benefiting or helping Delta pilots in any way.

Also, I don't see the management ever going for it since they like to whipsaw yas as they see fit and use contract carriers. Not to mention the small fact that they don't want to give more negotiating power to its pilot groups.


Aloha,

FD

 

[BE02FO]

Surplus1,
You are not offending me, we are just having a healthy discussion here

A few points:

-You say you are against all subcontracting. Again Comair from the day it started codesharing with Delta in the eighties until it was bought was a contractor. You probably got hired with them during that period, subcontracting was feeding your family. I can't imagine how you were opposed to it since then, but somehow took a job with a carrier whose sole business was subcontracting. You will probably say it's the Delta pilots fault, they allowed it so you took advantage of it.

-About the Delta pilots, if this deal is more beneficial to them than the Comair/ASA pilots, why isn't their MEC jumping on it? I only see one side that is actively advocating this proposal: Comair and ASA pilots. Why?

-As for you not liking being bought by Delta, do you think Comair would have been better flying RJs as an independent?

 

[MetroSheriff]

PS. I don't mean to offend but based on your other posts to Metro, you sound just like a part of middle management that doesn't have the big picture and struggles with creative thinking while afraid to venture out of the box. Progress isn't made that way. This type of proposal needs some thought at the CEO level and will be over the head of most mid-level managers like the portfolio advocate.

Me???? Or were you refering to Be02FO?? I have been called a great many things, but never middle management... LOL

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,
You are not offending me, we are just having a healthy discussion here

Glad to hear that.

-You say you are against all subcontracting. Again Comair from the day it started codesharing with Delta in the eighties until it was bought was a contractor. You probably got hired with them during that period, subcontracting was feeding your family. I can't imagine how you were opposed to it since then, but somehow took a job with a carrier whose sole business was subcontracting. You will probably say it's the Delta pilots fault, they allowed it so you took advantage of it.

No, I don't say it was the Delta pilots fault. It was ALPA's fault. The Delta pilots merely inherited it but were not the first to start it.

Yes, Comair was a sucontractor begining in 1984. Yes, the contract was very beneficial to Comair. It was also beneficial to Delta. Unlike most other subcontractors, the majority of Comair's business was never the Delta feed (most other regionals did nothing but feed.) If I'm not mistaken, at the peak of the relationship 60% of the traffic was Comair's and 40% Delta feed. Most folks always want to ingnore that or outright refuse to acknowledge it simply because that is not how they did it. Reality is that there was considerable doubt as to whether Comair was feeding Delta or Delta was feeding Comair. Comair never did things "like other regionals". When there was something to copy, they copied us, not the other way around.

We never got mentally into the syndrome of Delta dependency. We had a good agreement with Delta but it was never the reason for our existence. We existed to make money not to codeshare with Delta and we made more of it than anyone else. Maybe we should have decide to be dependent on Delta, but right or wrong we didn't. It is true that we would not have grown as fast without the Delta codeshare and may never have gotten to the point that we did. It is also true that I might not have been hired if we had not grown. In that case, I would simply have been hired somewhere else. All those what if's are really irrelevant. That's history.

We don't need solutions for the past we need a solution for the future and for our specific problem in our system (the Delta system) not for "the industry".

The job that I got and accepted did not take even one job from a Delta pilot or prevent one promotion at Delta. In contrast, the recent addition of a subcontract between Delta and CHQ, takes 22 aircraft and 220 jobs (including 110 captain upgrades) from Comair and ASA pilots and caused hundreds of Delta/Comair employees, pilots, F/A's, CSRs, rampers, mechanics, etc., to be displaced from their jobs and their lives and familys disrupted. If you expect me to be happy about that, you have a long wait. We fly the same type of equipment and, our Company could easily buy 22 new airplanes to do that job just like CHQ has to buy them. That's wrong and it needs to be stopped.

Of course the Company (CMR) "took advantage" of the contract. What would you have us do, chuck it? That's business. NWA takes advantage of its codeshare with KLM and Delta takes advantage of its codeshare with Air France, etc. Why shouldn't Comair take advantage of its codeshare with Delta or Delta take advantage of its codeshare with Comair? You act as if we owe somebody a favor because we had a business relationship. We don't.

None of that changes the fact that subcontracting is not good for the pilot group that allows it. The impact on a major's pilot group of subcontracting with a regional is favorable to the major pilots, not detrimental. It increases growth at the major and takes away nothing, simply because both do different flying in different equipment and neither one takes anything from the other. If Delta were to start subcontracting with AirTran or Jet Blue or SouthWest, it would be extremely dangerous to Delta pilots and should never be allowed.

When the subcontracting occurs between companies that operate the same equipment and serve the same markets, then the subcontracting is injurious to the pilot group that permits it. Quite different from the major/regional scenario. Now that Comair is a part of Delta and so is ASA, subcontracting with SKYW does not presently harm Comair for two reasons 1) It was in place before we were acquired; 2) it serves a region of the country that we do not. However, as SKYW expands into Dallas and surrounding areas, they take from our brothers at ASA. Why doesn't ASA expand into SLC and eliminate SKYW? They could easily do so and SKYW can go live happily ever after with United. SKYW is an obstacle to the growth of ASA, which hurts the pilot group at ASA. Eventually, it can only get worse.

ACA is different. In fact, that contract came into being as a means to help Delta buy Comair. It is detrimental and has always been detrimental to Comair people. As a result of it Comair has 32 less aircraft than it otherwise could. The recent addition of Chautaqua, is especially detrimental to Comair and to ASA both. It forced Comair to close its FL base and prevented ASA from taking it over. It directly took 22 growth aircraft from Comair and transferred that growth and the associated promotions and new jobs to an airline outside of the Delta system. It happened only because they are cheaper. That is detrimental and dangerous to every Comair and ASA pilot in the same way that it will be detrimental to Delta pilots if they codeshare with CAL and CAL then replaces Delta in SLC for example or, as a result of the codeshare with NWA, Delta mainlie service to DTW is discontinued.

When my Company, which is now Delta, subcontracts the same work that I do to a company that is not owned by Delta, that is injurious to my career and it needs to be stopped. I don't really care whether CHQ would lose jobs if it goes away. Those are actually my jobs that they would be losing, which they had no right to gain in the first place.

-About the Delta pilots, if this deal is more beneficial to them than the Comair/ASA pilots, why isn't their MEC jumping on it? I only see one side that is actively advocating this proposal: Comair and ASA pilots. Why?

First of all I don't think their MEC knows anything about it. This proposal is not some Comair master plan, it is just my personal opinion of one way that it could be done. Secondly, it is not "more" beneficial to them. It is mutually beneficial to both of us. Third, you only see one side that is actively advocating any solution to the problem. The other side (ALPA and the DMEC) advocates more scope against their own Company simply because they don't want to acknowledge (for whatever reason) that ASA and Comair are now an integrated part of Delta and ALPA has an outdated and flawed agenda to "stop the RJ". I didn't make that happen and I didn't want it to happen either but it did, and pretending that it did not is just plain stupid.

-As for you not liking being bought by Delta, do you think Comair would have been better flying RJs as an independent?

In three words, YES I DO! What makes you think Comair would have been limited to "flying RJs as an independent"? Why couldn't Comair have bought AirTran or Spirit or both and fed them with 150 Rjs? You think maybe Comair didn't know how to run a low cost carrier? You think we didn't have the money to buy either one of those little airlines? If they can make it and they are, why couldn't we have made it? You are thinking "in the box" again, like management or a junior mainline pilot.

Again, I don't mean to be arrogant but please don't compare Comair to TSA or Mesa. That's apples and oranges. If Delta had not made an unfriendly takeover of our company, we not only could have made it on our own, we most definitely would have. That would have been better for every Comair employee and our pilots would not be involved now it this absurd fight with ALPA and other pilots in the same company.

Hands down better for all of us!! The only thing the Delta buyout has done for Comair is destroy our Company and give us all a huge headache that we never had before.

"And that's the way it is." (In my book)

 

[surplus1]

Me???? Or were you refering to Be02FO?? I have been called a great many things, but never middle management... LOL

NO, not you. YES = BE02FO.

You're on the right side. I'll 100% convert you yet --- LOL

 

[FlyinBrian]

I thought this thread was about

Freedom Air?

 

[Full of LUV]

Glad to hear that.



No, I don't say it was the Delta pilots fault. It was ALPA's fault. The Delta pilots merely inherited it but were not the first to start it.

Yes, Comair was a sucontractor begining in 1984. Yes, the contract was very beneficial to Comair. It was also beneficial to Delta. Unlike most other subcontractors, the majority of Comair's business was never the Delta feed (most other regionals did nothing but feed.) If I'm not mistaken, at the peak of the relationship 60% of the traffic was Comair's and 40% Delta feed. Most folks always want to ingnore that or outright refuse to acknowledge it simply because that is not how they did it. Reality is that there was considerable doubt as to whether Comair was feeding Delta or Delta was feeding Comair. Comair never did things "like other regionals". When there was something to copy, they copied us, not the other way around.

We never got mentally into the syndrome of Delta dependency. We had a good agreement with Delta but it was never the reason for our existence. We existed to make money not to codeshare with Delta and we made more of it than anyone else. Maybe we should have decide to be dependent on Delta, but right or wrong we didn't. It is true that we would not have grown as fast without the Delta codeshare and may never have gotten to the point that we did. It is also true that I might not have been hired if we had not grown. In that case, I would simply have been hired somewhere else. All those what if's are really irrelevant. That's history.

We don't need solutions for the past we need a solution for the future and for our specific problem in our system (the Delta system) not for "the industry".

The job that I got and accepted did not take even one job from a Delta pilot or prevent one promotion at Delta. In contrast, the recent addition of a subcontract between Delta and CHQ, takes 22 aircraft and 220 jobs (including 110 captain upgrades) from Comair and ASA pilots and caused hundreds of Delta/Comair employees, pilots, F/A's, CSRs, rampers, mechanics, etc., to be displaced from their jobs and their lives and familys disrupted. If you expect me to be happy about that, you have a long wait. We fly the same type of equipment and, our Company could easily buy 22 new airplanes to do that job just like CHQ has to buy them. That's wrong and it needs to be stopped.

Of course the Company (CMR) "took advantage" of the contract. What would you have us do, chuck it? That's business. NWA takes advantage of its codeshare with KLM and Delta takes advantage of its codeshare with Air France, etc. Why shouldn't Comair take advantage of its codeshare with Delta or Delta take advantage of its codeshare with Comair? You act as if we owe somebody a favor because we had a business relationship. We don't.

None of that changes the fact that subcontracting is not good for the pilot group that allows it. The impact on a major's pilot group of subcontracting with a regional is favorable to the major pilots, not detrimental. It increases growth at the major and takes away nothing, simply because both do different flying in different equipment and neither one takes anything from the other. If Delta were to start subcontracting with AirTran or Jet Blue or SouthWest, it would be extremely dangerous to Delta pilots and should never be allowed.

When the subcontracting occurs between companies that operate the same equipment and serve the same markets, then the subcontracting is injurious to the pilot group that permits it. Quite different from the major/regional scenario. Now that Comair is a part of Delta and so is ASA, subcontracting with SKYW does not presently harm Comair for two reasons 1) It was in place before we were acquired; 2) it serves a region of the country that we do not. However, as SKYW expands into Dallas and surrounding areas, they take from our brothers at ASA. Why doesn't ASA expand into SLC and eliminate SKYW? They could easily do so and SKYW can go live happily ever after with United. SKYW is an obstacle to the growth of ASA, which hurts the pilot group at ASA. Eventually, it can only get worse.

ACA is different. In fact, that contract came into being as a means to help Delta buy Comair. It is detrimental and has always been detrimental to Comair people. As a result of it Comair has 32 less aircraft than it otherwise could. The recent addition of Chautaqua, is especially detrimental to Comair and to ASA both. It forced Comair to close its FL base and prevented ASA from taking it over. It directly took 22 growth aircraft from Comair and transferred that growth and the associated promotions and new jobs to an airline outside of the Delta system. It happened only because they are cheaper. That is detrimental and dangerous to every Comair and ASA pilot in the same way that it will be detrimental to Delta pilots if they codeshare with CAL and CAL then replaces Delta in SLC for example or, as a result of the codeshare with NWA, Delta mainlie service to DTW is discontinued.

When my Company, which is now Delta, subcontracts the same work that I do to a company that is not owned by Delta, that is injurious to my career and it needs to be stopped. I don't really care whether CHQ would lose jobs if it goes away. Those are actually my jobs that they would be losing, which they had no right to gain in the first place.



First of all I don't think their MEC knows anything about it. This proposal is not some Comair master plan, it is just my personal opinion of one way that it could be done. Secondly, it is not "more" beneficial to them. It is mutually beneficial to both of us. Third, you only see one side that is actively advocating any solution to the problem. The other side (ALPA and the DMEC) advocates more scope against their own Company simply because they don't want to acknowledge (for whatever reason) that ASA and Comair are now an integrated part of Delta and ALPA has an outdated and flawed agenda to "stop the RJ". I didn't make that happen and I didn't want it to happen either but it did, and pretending that it did not is just plain stupid.



In three words, YES I DO! What makes you think Comair would have been limited to "flying RJs as an independent"? Why couldn't Comair have bought AirTran or Spirit or both and fed them with 150 Rjs? You think maybe Comair didn't know how to run a low cost carrier? You think we didn't have the money to buy either one of those little airlines? If they can make it and they are, why couldn't we have made it? You are thinking "in the box" again, like management or a junior mainline pilot.

Again, I don't mean to be arrogant but please don't compare Comair to TSA or Mesa. That's apples and oranges. If Delta had not made an unfriendly takeover of our company, we not only could have made it on our own, we most definitely would have. That would have been better for every Comair employee and our pilots would not be involved now it this absurd fight with ALPA and other pilots in the same company.

Hands down better for all of us!! The only thing the Delta buyout has done for Comair is destroy our Company and give us all a huge headache that we never had before.

"And that's the way it is." (In my book)

Is Surplus still at Comair?

 

[ChinaClipper]

Mesa sucks.....

Freedumb's Schweddy balls.......keep the list alive! Never forget......

 

[sniper]

Freedumb's Schweddy balls.......keep the list alive! Never forget......

I have my list along with blow jets list very handy

 

[Friend]

i thought when freedom airlines lost its contract with delta they closed the doors on that operation and furloughed and moved the remaining pilots back in training for the crj200 on mesa side. there is no more freedom certificate or freedom airlines.

 

[flyboyzii]

I have my list along with blow jets list very handy

Ha!! You obviously never get tired of beating your chest. It must suck to be you.

 

[sniper]

Ha!! You obviously never get tired of beating your chest. It must suck to be you.

Does not suck for me....not at all....I moved on from the regionals but I dont forget sc----s

therefore I keep the list for future references.

you set your bed, sleep on it now......it was your career suicide not mine

..the creation of freedom and gojets was nothing more to screw the TSA and Mesa pilots during negotiations and it was accomplished with ethical and moral bankrupt pilots who joined those two outfits.

Good luck to you

 

[flyboyzii]

Does not suck for me....not at all....I moved on from the regionals but I dont forget sc----s

therefore I keep the list for future references.

you set your bed, sleep on it now......it was your career suicide not mine

..the creation of freedom and gojets was nothing more to screw the TSA and Mesa pilots during negotiations and it was accomplished with ethical and moral bankrupt pilots who joined those two outfits.

Good luck to you

Thanks but I don't need any luck. I've moved on myself. I don't miss it either. But, you obviously need a dictionary. I didn't cross a picket line.
You obviously think if you keep accusing people of being scabs over and over again that somehow it will come true. But, hey....whatever.

 

[PCL_128]

Is Surplus still at Comair?

Surplus retired a number of years ago. He still stops by the non-aviation part of FI on occasion.