Freedom Air questions...

[stb]

How is Freedom using Mesa's cerificate?
They have a Chief Pilot, Director of Ops and a President. It looks to be a totally seperate certificate. They have offices somewhere in the Dallas metro area.

Who's to say in a year that Freedom wont be ALPA?

ALPA has its good and its bad, dont forget that ALPA is a BUSINESS.
When was the last time ALPA endorsed a Republican running for US president? Been flying the line for 10+ years and have met less than 20 Democrats.
Yea ALPA has a pulse on their pilot group. (Sarcasm)


As for the SCAB thing, there sure are alot of RJ's flying previous mainline routes at AA,CO,NW,UAL,US,DL and AW. Dont throw that words around in a glasshouse.
A SCAB is someone that crosses a line to fly struck work.

Look at Continental Airlines, back in the late 80's. ALPA is now taking their 1.95% per year. That whole senerio has me baffled.

To go even further, since AA, SW, UPS and Jet Blue to name a few, are not ALPA union, do you give them a jumpseat? They are in a round about way taking jobs away from ALPA members on the street.

The problem is Freedom pilots flying 70-90 seats for less than 50 seat rj's. That is the part I dont get.

 

[jetdriven]

JO is violating our contract by hiring STREET CAPTAINS for freedom air. here's the contract for you:
------------------

B. This Agreement will be binding upon any successor or merged company or companies in the control of Mesa Airlines in accordance with the conditions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.

C. 1. All scheduled airline passenger revenue flying performed in or for revenue producing service of Mesa Airlines, or any subsidiary or division of Mesa Airlines, shall be performed by pilots on the Mesa Airlines Pilots' System Seniority List and supervisory pilots in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement.

The problem we have with FAL is not that its non union or non-alpa, the problem we have is he NEVER offered the -700/-900 flying to MESA. FAL was his intention from the start.

 

[stb]

Cant have it both ways...

C. 1. All scheduled airline passenger revenue flying performed in or for revenue producing service of Mesa Airlines, or any subsidiary or division of Mesa Airlines, shall be performed by pilots on the Mesa Airlines Pilots' System Seniority List and supervisory pilots in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement.


Where are the CCAir pilots on the Mesa Pilots Senority List?
The contract says "All scheduled". Will those pilots get merged in the list if CCAir ceases operations? Or will they be stapled? Or nothing at all?
Just the devils advocate.

The revenue is or will be going to Mesa Air Group the parent company, not Mesa Airlines.

 

[stb]

Your blacklist must be long

or doesn't have alot of names on them.

Batman states:
J.O. is finiancing the operation and using planes and routes that were slated for Mesa flying. Any pilot that crosses over to FAL will become BLACK-LISTED. Period!


Here is my question to the ATR F/O flying at American Eagle or Continental Express. Did your mainline pay or finance your airplane that you are flying on old mainline routes?

If you are from Continental Express, all the Continental pilots should be blacklisted. They actually did cross lines and flew struck work for Lorenzo of all people.
ALPA has taken them back with open arms and o'yes their 1.95%.

 

[Parethd70]

UAL/United Airlines/Avolar

Really no different than UAL was gonna do with their little BizJet venture Avolar............and after United Airlines furloughed 844 pilots, they initially told us we would have to RESIGN from United to work at Avolar. Then they made it all better by rescinding that, but only "giving" us preferential hiring. What a crock.....use the money I made as a United pilot, buy BizJets, operate them at a new subsidiary, furlough me..........yada yada yada.....


Then Avolar went under............and United......hhhmmmm

 

[stb]

Now the young pilots of

today see how "career expectations" was a joke to the USAir pilots.

Good luck in future employment.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

re: Freedumb

stb - I don't know all of the details with regard to Freedumb Air, however I do know that currently all of the pilots that are in training, and most if not all that are in management positions are still on the Mesa Airlines seniority list.

Freedumb Air is training all of their pilots and flight attendants at the Mesa Airlines training center. Mesa Air Group is a holding company, but they are financing this airline using money earned by Mesa and Air Midwest to avoid negotiating a fair contract with the pilots at those same airlines.

When it comes down to it, ALL of the shots are called by the same person in PHX that calls all of the shots for Mesa Airlines. It is one big shell game - a con job. No one is fooled here except those that have their eyes closed to reality. This whole fiasco is about one mans EGO.

Spiff

 

[FlyinBrian]

Jetdriven is 100% correct... If Freedom Air was an independent start-up airline that had no afiliation with Mesa, then none of us would care. However, J.O. is finiancing the operation and using planes and routes that were slated for Mesa flying. Any pilot that crosses over to FAL will become BLACK-LISTED. Period!

On your plane, or at Mesa... probably. But don't think that Mesa's pilot group can get these guys blacklisted industry-wide. My suggestion is to leave them alone and go after management with a single-carrier petition and contract negotiations. Management is your problem, not the pilots of FAL.

Don't think Mesa's situation is entirely unique. Management has thought up ways to get around contracts by using alter-ego carriers long before FAL. The pilots at these carriers have not been blacklisted before. A freedom pilot's career will not be terribly affected solely by virtue of being a freedom pilot. No matter how much some people want to brand them, they are not scabs.

As has already been pointed out, working at Freedom could put your career in a tough bind, but not because it will put you on any black-list.

1.) If mesa wins a single-carrier petition, you will be working alongside the folks you tried to sell out... I can't imagine that would be fun.

2.) If Mesa strikes, and Freedom tells you to fly their routes, you will not have union protection which leaves you with a tough choice: scab or quit.

Basically, it's probably not a great career move, but you folks who think you can call these guys scabs have no clue. They won't be on the scab list, and they will be welcome in most non-mesa jumpseats.

 

[mckpickle]

god i hope you guys win this battle. It would set one sh1tty precedent of Ornstien went through with it!

 

[jetdriven]

Where are the CCAir pilots on the Mesa Pilots Senority List?

CCAIR pilots were merged according to relative seniority three years ago when Mesa bought CCAir. LorenzoStein refuses to recognize it. The MES MEC still insists on ONE LIST, ONE CONTRACT for ALL MESA PILOTS and all flying. I recently recieved an ASPEN mailbox message from another ALPA rep which reaffirmed the commitment of the MESA MEC to include the CCAir pilots in our bargaining

Some of our pilots have actually been stopped by AMR, UAL, and Alaska pilots and told that anyone going to FAL wil be blacklisted, and one even showed me the list. The fact freedom is a separate company does not matter. What matters is the separate seniority lists and the associated whispaw factor.

Another problem is that they are accepting pay that is 7.5% over mesa 50-seat flying which undercuts us. 68.00 per hour at ten years CRJ-900 CA and 81.00 at 18 years. What a joke. 97% of his pilots rejected it!!

 

[mesajock]

playing lawyer

We'll I'm not a lawyer but here is what I think (I know its a stretch) and the opinion of one of my lawyer buddies who I happen to agree with.... Basically after some discussion he stated that the merged seniority lists are worthless since CC Air was a seperate entity, from mesa, air midwest, under a seperate contract. He also explained that it was his opinion that the only aspect that affected us as a single carrier was for collective bargaining purposes and that Mesa Air Group as opposed to Mesa Airlines, CC Air etc. is under no obligation to allow pilots to move between companies. However, he said there was a precedant for this with air midwest and mesa (to show that in actuallity this has been a company practice and the courts could compel MAG to extend the practice to all subsidiaries.
He even went so far as to say that JO could however, disolve those companies CC Air in point and keep it in court far longer than most pilots have staying power.
Clear as MUD!

 

[AZaviator]

Basically, it's probably not a great career move, but you folks who think you can call these guys scabs have no clue. They won't be on the scab list, and they will be welcome in most non-mesa jumpseats.

That brings up a good question. Has anyone had or know of anyone who's had a Freedom Air pilot try to jumpseat on their aircraft??

 

[crj579]

I believe that JO has stated that he will go to the extent of purchasing tickets for the pilots or eliminating the recipricol jumpseat if there is any discrimination toward Freedom pilots. I wouldn't put it past him. Also, what would happen if Freedom is spun off of MAG? The whole scab/strike issue would be moot.
HP pilots are telling their group that they will be flying the 900's. This will probably get very interesting.

 

[CatYaaak]

Re: UAL/United Airlines/Avolar

Really no different than UAL was gonna do with their little BizJet venture Avolar............and after United Airlines furloughed 844 pilots, they initially told us we would have to RESIGN from United to work at Avolar. Then they made it all better by rescinding that, but only "giving" us preferential hiring. What a crock.....use the money I made as a United pilot, buy BizJets, operate them at a new subsidiary, furlough me..........yada yada yada.....

Then Avolar went under............and United......hhhmmmm

Dumbest thing United ever did was torpedo Avolar, since it was taking an initial action to go after the business-traveler marketshare where the business traveler market has gone. UAL simply bowed to short-sighted pressures fom within. And as for "making money" United has been hemoraging money since even before 9-11 (did you really think you were "making it" for them"?) and once you sell fractional share contracts, money is made for the provider whether the airplanes fly or not, regardless of load factor. It's in the bank. Warren Buffet realized this and after taking his bath at US Air, took a look around and invested in EJA and FlightSafety. I doubt you have more foresight than him.

The high-paying business traveler is gone from or leaving the airlines in droves, so get used to the flip-flop crowd that demands $39 tickets driving the engine of your employment for the rest of your career. You see, Avolar (if run correctly and outside the box of airline-mentality) would have been a conduit for the business world's $$ back INTO UAL , since they could offer more extensive perks than EJA, etc. could by virtue of benefits via the mainline to those in corporate America who decide where to spend the money in the first place. You can't "make it for United" if they don't choose to "spend it" at United. It's clear fewer and fewer are making that choice every day and so ticket prices are driven into the cellar by SW and that gang and United must follow.

Personally if I were running the show I wouldn't give anything more than "preferential interviews" to mainline pilots. The job would be far more demanding and require specialized customer service that many have no concept of, or experience with. It's completely alien to them. The CUSTOMERS, however, would be far too valuable to lose because of someone bitter about their mainline gravy-train running out of steam and acting accordingly. People signing multi-million dollar, multi-year deals for air transport expect professionalism, performance, and service with a smile...not surly pilots whining about something that doesn't concern them.

Torpedoing Avolar was a prime example of being penny-wise and pound-foolish. "Bye bye" Brooks Brothers deep-pockets when you need them most, and "hello" sweatsuits and flip-flops. Oh well, somebody else will be making the money, since airlines are by no means the only game in town. Have you really convinced yourself that what we as airlines offer is anything more than mediocre at best and usually a hair-pulling hassle for those who see flying as a neccesity of doing-business?

 

[surplus1]

This is probably a dumb question but I need to ask it.

What is the difference between Freedom and Mid Atlantic Airways? Why is one of them portrayed as "evil" and the other a "good deal"?

 

[FlyinBrian]

Some of our pilots have actually been stopped by AMR, UAL, and Alaska pilots and told that anyone going to FAL wil be blacklisted, and one even showed me the list.

I'm not sure who from AA stopped one of your guys to inform him that the switch to FAL would blacklist him. It seems kind of strange that a non-ALPA major pilot would even care about fighting someone else's battle. Especially since they have plenty going on at their own property. You'd think if they were going to blacklist anyone it would be CHQ and TSA who AMR is using to violate APA's scope restrictions.

I'm not saying he didn't stop anyone from your airline, just that it seems a little strange.

 

[Beechnut]

On your plane, or at Mesa... probably. But don't think that Mesa's pilot group can get these guys blacklisted industry-wide.

Actually they can, and are. You think America West guys won't be interested in a list? ALPA is actively creating just a list.

S.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I would guess that America West is very interested in a list, but they are against Mesa flying the 700 and 900 as much as they are against Freedom flying them. Maybe they'll push to have all Mesa pilots on a blacklist because Mesa if flying the aircraft for much less than what AWA would? After all, that is why you want freedom pilots blacklisted right?

You really beleive that there is going to be another list in circulation that keeps these guys on a black list? They can't go on the scab list because they aren't scabs. But every pilot is going to get a seperate "freedom" list from ALPA to support a regional carrier like Mesa?

If freedom's pilots are on this "blacklist" that Mesa thinks is going to happen, what about Mid-Atlantic, Skywest, Trans-States, and Chatauqua? I want them added to the list too. Mid Atlantic is flying alter-ego for U express and undermining their efforts. TSA and CHQ are being used as alter-egos in violation of AE and AA's contracts, taking flying that contractually belongs to them. Skywest is a non-union carrier that competes with union carriers for business on the basis of price. Let's get them all on the list of "pilots who work for companies that pi$$ off other pilots"

Anyway, I'll be surprised if freedom ever even flies. It's obvious that not enough Mesa pilots are going to jump ship (around 3% I beleive), and with JO saying that they aren't hiring off the street, it seems he may be considering scrapping the idea. Let's hope so. It's a bad thing for the industry.

Just to be clear where I stand: Freedom sucks, but their pilots aren't scabs. They are only foolish. They have something to learn about the industry, but the only black list we have is for scabs, and we should keep it that way. It's a slippery slope once we start blacklisting anyone else.

 

[azpilot]

If freedom's pilots are on this "blacklist" that Mesa thinks is going to happen, what about Mid-Atlantic, Skywest, Trans-States, and Chatauqua? I want them added to the list too. Mid Atlantic is flying alter-ego for U express and undermining their efforts. TSA and CHQ are being used as alter-egos in violation of AE and AA's contracts, taking flying that contractually belongs to them. Skywest is a non-union carrier that competes with union carriers for business on the basis of price. Let's get them all on the list of "pilots who work for companies that pi$$ off other pilots"

Your suggestion isn't valid. Issues with established airlines are very different than the pilots who are going over to Freedumb from Mesa or off the street which is undermining the Mesa pilot group. For example, AWA pilots that have any brains are pissed at Mesa management and AWA management for shifting routes from AWA to Mesa. Most do not hold a grudge against the pilots themselves. The generally applies to those at TSA, CHQ etc. They are doing what they are told or will lose their jobs. Walking over to Freedumb is another matter entirely. I have no flying job and would NEVER consider flying for Freedumb.

- AZPilot

 

[FlyinBrian]

So how about newhires at TSA and CHQ? They are knowingly going to work for an airline that is being used to undermine other airlines' contracts. The aren't "doing what they're told or losing their jobs" I would think that they are under the same category as an off-the-street pilot at freedom. And what about MAPD grads? They ARE in a position of being told to fly for freedom or hit the road.

I would never go to work for freedom either for the reasons I've stated before. I think MESA pilots have every right to be upset with their "brothers" who are selling them out. But they can't reasonably expect the pilots of the whole industry to blacklist some guys who work for a company that they despise.

I don't intend to defend the Mesa folks who went to freedom. I intend to preserve the meaning of the "black list". We need to keep the blacklist reserved for scabs. Until someone crosses a picket line, we shouldn't turn our backs on them forever.

 

[750driver]

Re: Freedom Air is just plain wrong...

Any pilot that crosses over to FAL will become BLACK-LISTED. Period!

Batman

Let me start by saying that I have held ALPA membership for several years, and I don't agree with Freedom's method of operation. Personally, I wouldn't accept employment there, despite my current status. I think Mesa & it's pilot's deserve better.

Having said that ... Batman, I think you need to tone it down. For a guy with 1200 hours, no airline experience, and pending attendance to a newhire class, you've got some serious attitude. Get some experience under your belt and observe for a while BEFORE you start calling for blacklists. You obviously don't comprehend the implications of what you are suggesting. This isn't a game. You're dealing with the livelihood and careers of fellow aviators. Start acting like a professional, instead of a child.

FlyingBrian is right ... when these guys fly struck work, then label them as scabs. Until then, they can't be considered as such. Only time will tell for sure.

 

[Beechnut]

You obviously don't comprehend the implications of what you are suggesting. This isn't a game. You're dealing with the livelihood and careers of fellow aviators. Start acting like a professional, instead of a child.

It isn't Batman that doesn't get it, it's the Freedom pilots. This isn't a game. They're dealing with the livelihood and careers of fellow aviators, and their own! These are the consequences of their actions. The blacklist is the consequence of their actions. Batman didn't offer them the job, THEY LEFT MESA VOLUNTARILY.

I very disappointed that 750driver feels that a rookie that gets it should learn the business first. Maybe 750driver, as an individual that appears to have airline experience, should go back and learn of the industry.


S.

Actively trying to make the lives and careers of Freedom Air pilots as miserable as I can.

 

[FlyinBrian]

If only you would focus some of your anger, hate and aggression trying to take on JO instead of beating up on the Freedom guys. Be upset with them. cold shoulder them when you win your planes back, but jeezus, fight the battle where it's going to matter. A non-scab pilot not getting home to his family is not going to help your cause.

I have not been in this industry long, I cannot claim to speak from vast experience. But when I read about the folks who built the industry which we inherit, I can't help but think that the actions of freedom pilots are relatively insignifcant compared to a scab. I don't have a jumpseat to give, but if I did, I would probably allow a freedom pilot to have it. I would likely explain to him that I have friends at mesa, give him a briefing and then speak to him very little for the rest of the flight. When I see a freedom pilot, I see a brother who has let the family down, not a scab who should be cast out of the family.

I think that time will show that most of the industry will never feel more strongly than that. (MAG being the notable exception)

 

[750driver]

I very disappointed that 750driver feels that a rookie that gets it should learn the business first. Maybe 750driver, as an individual that appears to have airline experience, should go back and learn of the industry.

S.
Actively trying to make the lives and careers of Freedom Air pilots as miserable as I can.

Beechnut weren't you a proponent of posting SSN's and names publicly on the bulletin board, for all to see? Or was that someone else? If you're a role model for this industry, then show me the way out... Maybe you should start a Blacklist next time someone else pisses you off, or how about the next time you don't get your way in the cockpit?

What exactly is it that I need to go back and learn? Was I not specific enough when I stated how I felt about Freedom's actions? Or maybe I just don't "hate" others enough to meet your standards. Grow up and learn to deal with these issues like a professional. I know more about the industry than you might think. I've seen what they do to people just because they "think" the guy was a scab at one time in his career, not because they're even sure about it. My gripe lies with an inexperienced pilot that is blasting his mouth off demanding retribution. He hasn't even begun initial airline training yet according to his profile, but according to you "he gets it." If anyone seems to get it, FlyinBrian does.

Beechnut, I've seen enough to know that guys like you are never happy unless they are fighting or complaining about something in this industry. If that's what YOU learned, then enjoy your career, because I'm sure it will be a miserable one.

I never said these Freedom guys should be left alone, but blacklisting them now is premature. The airline is not even operating yet. ALPA should focus on the root cause, Freedom management. Blacklisting the pilots will not stop JO from developing this airline. Maybe a Mesa Pilot action will. I just think the solution of blacklisting will have little or no effect.

 

[vere76]

bump

 

[Freight Dog]

I'll offer my .02 cents on this.

Personally, I think the whole Freedom issue will be moot point, as the same judge that ruled CCAir and Mesa are a single carrier, left open to Mesa pilots that if Freedom gets going, to bring the same petition back to rule Freedom and Mesa to be a single carrier.

I do see this as a threat to the industry, and JO appears to be Lorenzo, Jr. However, I don't think he will get far enough.

 

[surplus1]

Personally, I think the whole Freedom issue will be moot point, as the same judge that ruled CCAir and Mesa are a single carrier, left open to Mesa pilots that if Freedom gets going, to bring the same petition back to rule Freedom and Mesa to be a single carrier.

Two questions: 1) What is the source of your information? 2) If what you say is true, what effect would you expect that to have?

 

[Freight Dog]

http://www.alpa.org/internet/news/2002news/nr02060.html

 

[Rottweiller]

Actually they can, and are. You think America West guys won't be interested in a list? ALPA is actively creating just a list.

S.

I have actually seen, and copied a list of those who have just "graduated". Amazing how little time it took to hit the streets.

 

[Brother Francis]

Scabs or Heros

In the context of the "Single Carrier" ruling:

Suppose the Freedom Air guys who have been branded/blacklisted/ostracized by certain someones had planned this all along.

Suppose, just suppose these guys stuck their necks out, exposed their throats to the rabid, kneejerk name calling, name publishing disdain and contempt they have been subjected to on these boards, having pre-planned getting themselves and Freedom established only to use this ruling to turn the tables. What an eloquent coup that would be.

I'm not saying this is the case, but I have some ketchup here that might make the crow go down a little easier if this comes to pass.

If it's not the case, then it's not. But the possibility is a cautionary tale for those who would rush to judgement.