Fractionals in the Coporate World

[MDC]

A question for coporate pilots. How much of a concern is it when a major coporate flight deparment in the northeast signs a five aircraft deal with a fractional. I'm considering leaving a fractional for coporate. However, this new information concerns me.

Thank you!

 

[Bandit60]

A question for coporate pilots. How much of a concern is it when a major coporate flight deparment in the northeast signs a five aircraft deal with a fractional. I'm considering leaving a fractional for coporate. However, this new information concerns me.

Thank you!

Eventually the company will probably go with their own aircraft. If they need five aircraft from a fractional that tell me they do alot of flying. With that much flying, I would say it is cheaper for the corporate to operate their own flight department when you take all expenses into account. Do you know why this company went with a fractional?

 

[MDC]

No Idea. Flew the company CEO two weeks ago. Nice guy. Just seems odd to me.

 

[AA717driver]

From what I hear, it comes and goes. Some departments close down and go frac. Other departments start up when the owners out grow fracs.

I'd be more concerned with "is this company going to be bought anytime soon" or will this job in "X" aircraft position me to get a job with a company with "F", "C" or "G" sized aircraft. It seems that in corporat you're either looking ahead or you'll always be looking over your shoulder. But wtfdik...?

Good luck.TC

 

[Bandit60]

From what I hear, it comes and goes. Some departments close down and go frac. Other departments start up when the owners out grow fracs.

I'd be more concerned with "is this company going to be bought anytime soon" or will this job in "X" aircraft position me to get a job with a company with "F", "C" or "G" sized aircraft. It seems that in corporat you're either looking ahead or you'll always be looking over your shoulder. But wtfdik...?

Good luck.TC

Execllent point about the company being bought anytime soon.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

A question for coporate pilots. How much of a concern is it when a major coporate flight deparment in the northeast signs a five aircraft deal with a fractional. I'm considering leaving a fractional for coporate. However, this new information concerns me.

Thank you!

Isnt a major corp flight department in the Northeast the largest shareholder in Netjets? haven't they been for many years?

Its called "picking up the garbage" (err...supplemental lift) on the flight schedule.

good luck with your choice.

 

[MDC]

You are correct. But this particular company is not the one you are refering to. New contract. From 0 to 5.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

No Idea. Flew the company CEO two weeks ago. Nice guy. Just seems odd to me.

A company with a major flight department (as you say) put thier CEO on a fractional Cessna XL with you (Mr unknown) at the helm?

"Hey Joe CEO, the G550 is not going to take you to your meeting today, but here is Joe Retard in his Spiffy Citation, you can fight with the crew over the Rudys lunch with the Rice Pudding cup"

doubt it...but lets keep this going anyhow!

 

[TXGold]

If the company in question cares at all about service, they will retain the current flight department. Just wait a little, while the Frac Ops run a number on them. "Sit down, shut up, we'll get there when we get there, and if we get there we ain't leaving till this time," is usually how it goes. Frac's are a concern for our department and I like to keep this in mind at the end of a long day.

 

[MDC]

Sorry to have upset anyone. I know exactly who this person was. His company and position were clearly noted on my brief sheets. I am just trying to get some perspective. I have wanted to make the transition from fractional to coporate for sometime now. I used to think that I would not make a move unless the department had at least five aircraft. I also know of another large department (in the souheast) that went from 8 to 3 aircraft this summer. Offset also by a fractional.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sorry to have upset anyone. I know exactly who this person was. His company and position were clearly noted on my brief sheets. I am just trying to get some perspective. I have wanted to make the transition from fractional to coporate for sometime now. I used to think that I would not make a move unless the department had at least five aircraft. I also know of another large department (in the souheast) that went from 8 to 3 aircraft this summer. Offset also by a fractional.

So....as a Netjet Citation pilot, how many offers at these large flight departments have you had?

I mean, you seem pretty picky!

I think you should up your minimum consideration to 6+ aircraft departments only - just to be safe.



:laugh:

 

[Diesel]

yeah those ceo's really hate the fractionals when they go from teb-lax and have a 6 hour meeting and then come right back.

In the corp world you say sir we're out of duty time, or we'll just do it this one time.

In the frax world the plane is gone and another one, probably an upgrade, will be there an hour prior to make sure the trip is done.

TEB-LAX-TEB all in one day. Can't do that corp.

Personally i think it's all evened out by now. Some have gone frax some have gotten their own planes.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

In the corp world you say sir we're out of duty time, or we'll just do it this one time.

In Part 91 flying, there is no such thing, only good judgement. Trying to compare the fractionals to a well run 91 op is like comparing Greyhound Busses to Pullman Cars. The QOS with a 91 op beats all hell out of anything the teamsters might offer up...particularly when they are "proving a point" to their employers.

I have the unionized pilots of the IBT to thank for my job, they pissed off my boss so bad, he bought an airplane.

So thanks... and keep up the good work!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

TEB-LAX-TEB all in one day. Can't do that corp.

Diesel,

TEB-LAX-TEB -- walk in the park.

Many corp flight departments routinly go KTEB-ZBAA in one day. Its called augmented crews.

very routine.

Oh, by the way, cant do THAT fractional!!!!

keep humpin' em to PBI and ASE boy, you are doing good.


:laugh:

 

[Diesel]

actually yes we can. 3 and even 4 in augmented crews.

the beauty of having over 2500 pilots in the us, and a couple of hundred more in Europe at the ready

 

[HMR]

the beauty of having over 2500 pilots in the us, and a couple of hundred more in Europe at the ready

That was my boss' biggest complaint when he used to have a fractional share: different guys up front every time he got on the plane.

 

[sydeseet]

In the frax world the plane is gone and another one, probably an upgrade, will be there an hour prior to make sure the trip is done.quote]

Yes, but does the DVD player work on the "upgrade" aircraft?

 

[2EASYPilot]

I really believe frac's have their place (please no flame)....our company ran the numbers and found them to be way to expensive given the number of hours we fly. They seemed to appreciate the fact that they knew what aircraft they were going to be in and who was flying it. Glad they were smart enough to do the research and read the fine print in those contracts !!!

 

[AA717driver]

That was my boss' biggest complaint when he used to have a fractional share: different guys up front every time he got on the plane.

That's what keeps our people out of fracs. A couple of the relatives down the line of succession are with NJA. We've tried to get them into a plane but can't resolve scheduling conflicts. (Coin flips don't work at this level...) So, in their case, a frac is working for them.

Fracs fill an important niche in the corporate world.TC

 

[h25b]

That was my boss' biggest complaint when he used to have a fractional share: different guys up front every time he got on the plane.

This is our guy's single biggest concern as well. He wants to know exactly who's up front, who's managing the operations, and wants to know for d%mn sure that the best is maintaining his bird. Period. Otherwise, he'll drive... I don't think that it really has to do with his own personal sense of well being, it's more that we'll often have all of his grandchildren on board.

Fracs fill an important niche in the corporate world.TC

Yep, they fly all of the idiots that we don't want to deal with. I love those guys...

 

[Diesel]

Frac's bring a lot of people into flying that would otherwise not be into aviation. A lot of these people get hooked.

Thank a fractional pilot for your job.

I'll expect to be bought a beer next time you swing through new england.

 

[h25b]

Frac's bring a lot of people into flying that would otherwise not be into aviation. A lot of these people get hooked.

Thank a fractional pilot for your job.

I'll expect to be bought a beer next time you swing through new england.

Oh, you mean people like Don Imus... Gee, thanks.

I was watching him on MSNBC a few weeks ago when he was telling us how most of the NetJets pilots are former Air Force One pilots. Boy, you guys must have some real dandy individuals in sales.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Oh, you mean people like Don Imus... Gee, thanks.

I was watching him on MSNBC a few weeks ago when he was telling us how most of the NetJets pilots are former Air Force One pilots. Boy, you guys must have some real dandy individuals in sales.

please, let Netjets have them..keep them out of the general population.

 

[h25b]

please, let Netjets have them..keep them out of the general population.

My thoughts exactly. NetJets fills the important niche of thinning out the herd before us poor ba$tards have to deal with them. Albeit, a few do slip by but without NetJets our lives would be truely miserable.

 

[TXGold]

Oh, you mean people like Don Imus... Gee, thanks.

I was watching him on MSNBC a few weeks ago when he was telling us how most of the NetJets pilots are former Air Force One pilots. Boy, you guys must have some real dandy individuals in sales.

That is Diesel's profile! Imus, what a tardgimp.

 

[NJAowner]

It is very possible that the CEO was trying out the fractional for personal use. Many large public companies with flight departments have come under scrutiny of Wall Street analysts and regulation of the SEC to disclose personal use of the corporate fleet by top executives. The IRS has been involved as well. This use also includes when the executive flies from NYC to Florida on a Friday evening for a "business golf meeting over the weekend" and returns early Monday morning. And when this only seems to happen in January, Feb and March, coincidentially when the wife is also in Florida. Strange how it happens that way. It never seems to happen in the summer when those important golf meetings are held in Nantucket.

I know of a few companies who have acquired frax shares for the personal use of the executives. They also require for security that the executives do not fly commercial. These situations are fully disclosed in the fine print and the executives fully reimburse the coprporation. It is very easy to determine the reimbursement amount when the corp pays NJA. It is tougher to determine the proper reimbursement cost per hour when all costs are lumped into the flight department. (Do you include hangar costs, insurance, medical benefits, pensions, etc.) The flight department has the experience and expertise to evaluate and monitor the frax service and safety instead of relying upon the executive's wife or secretary.

Fly safe.

 

[GVFlyer]

A question for coporate pilots. How much of a concern is it when a major coporate flight deparment in the northeast signs a five aircraft deal with a fractional. I'm considering leaving a fractional for coporate. However, this new information concerns me.

Thank you!

I dunno, ask the guys at Dresser, Freeport-McMoran or Crystal. Oh, wait! Their flight departments don't exist anymore.

Some flight departments, like Seagrams, who had two full shares before they went away when Vivendi bought them, successfully use shares for supplemental lift and maintain their base flight departments.

It's interesting that 200 hours per year is the only utilization point that makes financial sense for fractional aircraft ownership (hence the QS for Quarter Share on NetJets' tails), but some companies that fly more than that are willing to take the financial hit to keep an airplane off the books for PR with the Board, stockholders, and the public.

I think it's a misnomer to call NetJets et al, corporate aviation. Corporate flight departments do not generate a profit, rather they are productivity multipliers, in many cases making the companies core missions possible. Fractionals on the other hand do, like the airlines, generate a profit based on passenger transportation. So to paraphrase Rudyard Kipling, "Corporate is corporate and fractional is fractional and never the twain shall meet, Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;" Oops, got carried away. I'll stop now.

Frac's bring a lot of people into flying that would otherwise not be into aviation. A lot of these people get hooked.

He's right, you know. There's a lot of people out there who can afford a 1/8th or a 1/16th share who couldn't begin to afford a whole airplane. The end result is that there's a bunch of folks flying around who would otherwise be taking a Red Tail, so the fractional industry has created a lot of pilot jobs. At first, with the exception of NJI, they didn't pay anything, but that seems to be in the process of getting fixed.


GV





~

 

[NotFurloughed]

But...

actually yes we can. 3 and even 4 in augmented crews.

the beauty of having over 2500 pilots in the us, and a couple of hundred more in Europe at the ready

Yeah, but you know, I'd rather do it on G200's schedule and paycheck...

 

[Diesel]

I think it's a misnomer to call NetJets et al, corporate aviation. Corporate flight departments do not generate a profit, rather they are productivity multipliers, in many cases making the companies core mission possible.

Did you see our balance sheet? Neither do we.

 

[MNR]

I was under the impression that the fractionals make their money by selling airplanes not by flying people around. They pay a pretty hefty price to get companies to provide suplimental lift on a regular basis for them.

The business model the fractionals operate under demands the need for it. When your selling one plane to 4 people its eventually going to catch up with you.

From what I understand Net Jets and the other fractional operators are happy if they just break even on air ops. The real bread and butter of that industry is the buying and selling of airplanes. What will be interesting to see is what happens in the long run. Can fractioanls continue to make money that way or will they eventually have to streamline their air ops to be profitable? It will be interesting to see as the industry matures.

I personally would rather find a solid Part 91 operation to fly for eventually. Right now I fly for one of those companies that regualrly provides that supplimental lift. As much as I enjoy doing what I am doing now I do not think I would be interested in doing it at Net Jets or any other fractional for the next 20 years. Plus in the back of my mind I wonder about the long term viability of the business model. Only time will tell.

A solid Part 91 department ultimately can provide a level of customer service that the fractionals cannot match. That is the business we are all in. Flying the aircraft is of course the other large part of that equation but fail on the customer service end for the CEO and I bet you don't have a flight department for very long. So if you can find a Part 91 op that does things right I don't think you would have much to fear. There will be exceptions to this of course but as with any area of our industry no job is completely secure.