** Fractional, could just happen **

[ductleak]

Dear fellow pilots:

I have finally seen a little light at the end of the tunnel with NETJETS. I have had my eyes on NJA ever since the start of my aviation career. I submitted an application almost a year ago and I, like many of you, received an update form. Now, I know that several people also received this form and I am aware that NJA is not CURRENTLY hiring. I was informed that they may start scheduling interviews in the late Fall of this year.

Currently, I am with a regional airline and I am gaining tons of experience but, this has not been my goal from this start. I feel very fortunate to have a job right now and to be flying but, NETJETS is where I would love to hang my hat, as we say down south. I have some corporate experience and hold a citation 7 type rating... I was wanting some pointers from you guys and girls at NJA on what to do to prepair for an interview and what to expect next from NETJETS. I would like to hear from some of you that have left the regional airlines and how you view the choices that you made now that you have been at NETJETS for a while. I really, in my heart, think that NETJETS is probably the best place for me and my family. Any pointers and suggestive ideas / thoughts will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

 

[JBL]

"I would like to hear from some of you that have left the regional airlines and how you view the choices that you made now that you have been at NETJETS for a while. I really, in my heart, think that NETJETS is probably the best place for me and my family."

Hi ductleak. Yours is the latest post I've seen regarding guys hoping to leave the airlines for NJ, so I'll give you my opinion on the potential move(to avoid the flame that will surely come my way from the current NJ guys & gals, again I say...only an opinion).

I flew for a regional for 5 years and a major for 2 and a half before getting furloughed. I then went to NetJets. It took my just over 16 months to get fed up with the place enough to quit. There are major lifestyle changes between the airlines and a fractional. I see that you have some corporate background so you know what I'm talking about. I'll try to give you some pros and cons. Take it for what it's worth.

Airlines publish schedules that pilots bid on. Seniority rules as far as schedules go. You don't like early shows, bid the late stuff...etc. At NJ, seniority means very little unless used for pay and vacation. Once you start a tour all bets are off as far as what time to show, where you're going, what time you'll be done, and if you will get a decent night's sleep. That was my biggest beef with NJ. Some tours you sit around in a hotel with a broken airplane and some tours you're pager is going off the minute your 10 hours of rest end with an asap. You can't get your body into a routine with eating, sleeping, or anything else for that matter. And even when you get a brief that is a sure thing, it will change 3 times by morning.

I did both the 17 day and the 7 on/ 7 off schedule. I liked neither really. The 17 day has a bad habit of turning into 6 on/ 3 off/ 6 on/ 4 off/ etc...even some 6 on/ 2 off (although the contract is supposed to keep that to a minimum). The 7&7 just was too long to be away from the wife and kids, but the 7 off was nice and that schedule also turns 1 week of vacation into 3. I have 2 young boys so being gone for 7 days was hard on me, but even harder on my wife. That is a real concern all NJ guys have to address at some point.

The pay sucks, but I do believe the NJ pilots will get a substantial raise (God knows they've earned it!!) when the contract gets wrapped up.

The flying is challenging at times. You'll see the whole country, Canada, Mexico, and the Carribean. Neat to do, but often times the exotic places are a royal pain in the ass to deal with. Customs paperwork has turned into a nightmare for me more than once. Each station wants something different. (US Customs is the most inconsistent Federal agency I've ever dealt with. Just like a box of chocolates...you NEVER know what you're gonna get when they greet you with a "smile"). You will visit airports that really have no right being called an airport, and the best thing they have to get you in there is an NDB built in 1957. Like I said, challenging at times.

Bottom line, if you don't mind not having a reliable schedule on the road, you can handle being home as few as 3 days out of 15, and you don't mind visiting podunk USA, maybe NJ is the place for you. To balance the discussion I will say that the hotels you'll stay in and the crew food you'll eat put the airlines to shame. The bad thing about it is that you really can't fully understand the lifestyle until you're living it...i.e. you may end up like me thinking it will be ok only to find out that you absolutely hate it. The difference between you and me is that I took the job after my airline gig was taken away, you would be quitting the airline life intentionally. This would make it an tough pill to swallow if you get there and don't like it. Your call. Good luck either way.

 

[ukipilot]

Well one thing that he forgot to add is that yes you do get to see lots of places, I also worked for the airlines, I love the fractional side better, being gone for 7 days is not that bad, I look at it as a break from doing house work, and my wife enjoys having the house to her self for a week, I enjoy being on the road, and that is what really makes the difference, if you need to be home all of the time then this job is not for you, since you have no home base per say. if your spouse can't be away from you for a week, then they have problems that can't be fixed on this site, one big advantage at the fractional is that at my company, my local airport is my domicile, I live 5 min. from my airport and that is were I commute to/from work. The reason that life here is better, is that you commute on their time not yours as you already know, I get airlined on day 1, go to a hotel, fly to day 7 and airline home on day 8, then I have 7 days off after that, and the best part is that I don't have to beg for a jumpseat on my off time to get to work on time and I don't need a crashpad since my home town airport is my domicile, 2 things that I don't miss

 

[RJL]

Great info JBL - Thanks.

 

[Semore Butts]

I'll listen to your opinion anytime

Here comes the flames JBL!!!!!!!!!!

Well done, great discription of life at the fracs.

I personally prefer the frac side based on the amount of time I spend in airport terminals. Airlining to and from work is the worst part if the job for me.

Other than taking part in the "watching of the chicks", I would hate to spend every working day at the airport.

That's my 2 cents, have what ever the hell kind of day you want!

 

[Diesel]

You know jbl i was going to jump all over you for your post. Then I read it throughly and saw just what it was. A very honest assesment of our life here.

I have a unique perspective because the wife is an airline captain, and I'm on the fractional side.

There are a ton of pros and cons. There are tooooooo many to list. It really depends on the type of person you are. If you are willing to leave a 121 right now you my friend are making quite a ballsy move. Not because one is better than the other. It's because there is such a huge difference between the two.

I can't even begin to explain the differences. What I can tell you is you will never work as hard as you will in flying if you come to the fractional side. Sure we have all this support, catering, dispatch, wx, yada yada yada but it all boils down to you. You are the last line of defense and the one people turn to praise/kill you.

This is a tough job. Some days you want to go nuts some days you just have a huge smie on your face.

 

[CRJ700 FO]

Ductleak,

The best info I found on preparing for the interview was found at

aviationinterviews.com

I was one last guys hired before the hiring stopped. I too jumped over from a regional and while there are many differences, I know I made the right choice.

IF you have any specific questions, PM me and I'll send you my email address.

Good Luck

 

[Heavy Set]

How was the transition from the CRJ-700 to the G200? Did you find the G200 much easier to fly? How far does the G200 fly for Netjets - do you hit Hawaii and/or Europe?

 

[CRJ700 FO]

I found the transition to be relatively painless. Especially when you factor in the the difference in attitudes between FSI guys and instructors from a regional. That's the biggest difference. Flight Safety will do anything too help where at the regionals you were on your own for the most part. The instructors didn't care one way or the other.
The G-200 seems to have a lot of common systems, ie many similiar to the planes I have previously flown. The cockpit of both have a lot of the same components but the layout is a little different.
The CRJ was nice but I actually enjoy flying the G-200 more. Maybe its just the type of flying now ( 121 vs. fractional )

 

[rocker]

JBL is right on. I was happy as I could be to return to flying after being furloughed from the show. Let me tell you, Netjets is not a good flying job. The pay sucks, the lack of having any real layovers sucks, and generally speaking the flying sucks.

I used to look forward to layovers in the airlines, and I saw a lot of interesting places and had some great times. At Netjets all you will see is your hotel room, often the closest one to the airport. They will be Hilton family hotels, generally, but either way you are in field layover hotel hell. There are the rare layovers in nice places, close to the beach, etc., but Netjets has an "A" team of company boot-lickers, that, unless you are part of it, you will never see those destinations.

I am actively looking for a 121 job. Do not give up your 121 work rules to come back down to a company that thinks nothing of calling your hotel room at 3 am after you were given a brief for a 2 pm show. Then putting you on duty for 14 hours. Another favorite trick is you get to some destination after being on duty for 9 hours or so, and then they ask you to standby for another 3. You are tired, and want to get the hell away from the airport and go to the hotel, because you suspect another 3 am call may be coming, and Netjets says standby. Or even better, call back in 20 minutes, and after that call, too busy, call me back in another 20 minutes.


I could go on, but this job is worse than flying for a regional, and I've been there, done that, and couldn't afford the T-shirt. I would think that unless you are flying for someone like Mesa, or Trans-States, your regional job will in the long run be much better. Maybe the majors will start hiring again someday, maybe they will flow-through the contractor code-share pilots. Who knows. But one thing is for sure, at Netjets, you will be abused, have a crappy quality of work life, and be flying little jets to little airports the rest of your career.

 

[Heavy Set]

Rocker,

Yeah, but you get to fly a Citation X.... That ain't too bad. Sounds like you did not investigate fractionals well enough before joining - I understand you needed a job. I know a bunch of guys at EJA who love their jobs - the type of variety inherent in their flying and the shiney, new aircraft.

Sorry to hear you don't like it. Well - at least you got some Citation X time - how do you like it? Is it a blast to fly (even if you don't want to be there)?


Good luck.

 

[Duke of Ale]

NJA

Rocker:

I hear ya man! Although I don't have much of a choice being retired airline. RON with me sometime and I will show you how to do it no matter where you wind up. From HPN, try the Lazy Boy Saloon to SUN, try Whiskey Jaques in Ketchum, Idaho. I got a whole list of 'em.

 

[Dep676]

Rocker don't the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out. I don't believe anyone is forcing you to to stay at NetJets. Remember you took the job.

 

[trainerjet]

Rocker don't the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

A typical d!ckhead response. Someone posts an honest reply to a question giving their thoughts and feelings on a subject, and if it goes against your view, a "don't let the door hit you in the a$$" response.

I see you have much experience with which to compare your King Air job with, stud.

 

[Heavy Set]

Hey, I don't fault Rocker. He didn't have many choices and he thought he MIGHT like fractional flying. It's too bad - perhaps he could have investigated the type of flying better before joining... I know there are plenty of guys out there who would LOVE to fly a Citation X for Netjets (me included). I also know a bunch of Netjet guys who could NEVER RETURN to airline flying - they love Netjets... To each his own...

At least Rocker got some Citation X time - he can think about his time flying at FL 510 at .92 mach when he is instead flying a 737 back and forth between O'Hare and LGA in the future.... I'd still like to hear his impressions of the Citation X.

Cheers

 

[NJA Capt]

JBL and Rocker,
Sorry to hear you didn't/don't like it here. I agree with Heavy set in that perhaps you guys did not investigate the fractional lifestyle before applying. Both of you guys mentioned not getting enough time to "sightsee" or whatever on layovers. Well......you are kindof at work. Sightseeing is for days off and for the people in the back. Personally, I have had quite a few memorable RONs, and I am NOWHERE near the A team.

I don't fault either of you for your QOL issues. You have to do what is right for yourself. Some guys like hard and fast duty and time of day regularity, others don't care. As for myself I like the diversity. I got pretty tired flying to the same 3 cities a couple of times per day. To each his own I guess. Guys with these opinions who are now "stuck here" if you will, are tying up seniority numbers of those who really want to be here.

Heavyset,
The X is a blast to fly and the speed is intoxicating. Although, when you're up there alone (no traffic) speed is just another number on the tape (dial for you steam lovers ). Except for changing the center freqs ever :30 seconds.

 

[JBL]

"Both of you guys mentioned not getting enough time to "sightsee" or whatever on layovers. Well......you are kindof at work. Sightseeing is for days off and for the people in the back."

NJA Capt,

Good points in your post. However, the only thing I mentioned not getting enough time for was a decent night's sleep. Put me on mornings or afternoons, but don't change me back and forth over and over again for God's sake. Ask anyone who flew with me at NJ...I busted my ass and couldn't have cared less about sightseeing.

You're right about there being a bunch of pilots who are not happy at NJ. I'm contacted regularly by pilots who have had enough of NJ's crap. The list is growing, and as things slowly pick back up industry wide, you'll start to see the defections increase. This is good news for you diehard NJ guys and gals.

I'm glad you like your job. Many NJ pilots do. Different strokes I guess. You dig it and I think it was the worst flying job I've ever had. Agree to disagree. Stay safe.

B.

 

[FracPilot]

I don't work for NJA, but I have been with a fractional for well over 4 years. This type of flying certainly is not for everyone. There are some that can't handle the constant state of change. It doesn't bother me. Some can't handle flying to small, unfamiliar airports quite often. I actually enjoy it. Some just can't stand the fact that they don't get to swagger through the terminal with an airline uniform on. I couldn't care less.

Would I go to a major given the opportunity? If I felt it was stable, you bet! The chance to make much better money alone would make the decision for me. I wouldn't like flying to the same handfull of airports time and time again, but I could deal with it for the cash. As long as I am flying - something, somewhere - I will be relatively happy with the job. I don't care much what type of airplane I fly - I don't understand the guys that get hung up on flying the Citation X because it's the fastest bizjet, or the Whale because it's the biggest. I'm happy if I'm flying and making good money. If I didn't enjoy the flying, I would be making much more money than I am now working in another field I am very experienced in.

I can understand why some guys are very disillusioned with the fractional industry - especially NJA. They are the largest of the fractional providers, yet their pay level is criminal. Those guys have been working for years at substandard pay. That's a great reason to be PO'd. Some guys are working for the frax when they don't want to be because they needed a job and it was offered. As long as they do their job correctly and don't let their unhappiness show to the owners, who cares? Let them move on when their chance comes - and somebody else take their position that really wants it.

 

[Semore Butts]

I guess time will tell

Hopefully the economy will give us all a chance to "light" in whatever part of the industry we want to be in.

It sounds like the companies are getting ready to "rev up" again soon.

I think I'll stay with the Fractional business, but my buddies at SWA insist I re-apply. It would be great to have to choose. I hope you all get that choice to make.

H#ll I don't know, I'm kinda getting sick of going to work altogether.

I do like watching the "chicks" at the airport, but other then that airlining to work sucks.

I like all the "deadhead legs" at the fractionals with the stereo jammin ZZ Top in the back.

Changing from AM's to PM's on a trip sucks as much as the pay.

Baby sitting a broke airplane for a few days can go either way depending on your location, never happen at an airline though.

Having one of the hottest woman on the planet leaning between the seats asking you questions, OOOOOHHHHH MMMAAAANNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever decision you make is best for you. Good luck!

 

[BigFlyr]

But one thing is for sure, at Netjets, you will be abused, have a crappy quality of work life, and be flying little jets to little airports the rest of your career.

Thanks for the post! Maybe it will improve someone else's chances of getting a job there! Someone who doesn't mind working for a living in exchange for flying brand new jets.

 

[trainerjet]

Thanks for the post! Maybe it will improve someone's chances of getting a job there! Someone who doesn't mind working for a living in exchange for flying brand new jets.

That's the same logic that people b!tch about constantly on here as to why regional pilot pay is $19/hr.

"But hey, I get to fly a brand new jet!"

Maybe some people have more self-respect that to be sh!t on constantly just to "fly a brand new jet". I guess at NetJets, the $19/hr is replaced by $37k/yr. Same deal, though. WAY below what it should be. But hey. You get to fly a brand new jet.

 

[Live4flyng]

Trainerjet

Speaking of D--khed responses, what an arrogant ass you are!

Did you know that NJA is unionized and is getting close to a new contract? I'm sure the airline you work for never had to bargain for anything you have. You were more than likely offered $150k/year from day one with all the work rules and benefits in place.

Typical response from someone who already "Has Theirs"! When times get tough and your company threatens to furlough or liquidate assets, guys like you would be the first to sell out one of your brothers/sisters.

Save your B.S. for that newly hired MD-80 FO who is naive enough to listen to it.

 

[BigFlyr]

That's the same logic that people b!tch about constantly on here as to why regional pilot pay is $19/hr.

"But hey, I get to fly a brand new jet!"

You're absolutely right! I really didn't mean to compare pilot pay at a fractional vs a regional. I know the pay sucks at most regionals but for many young and single pilots out there it's their first jet experience and by all the stats, the majors still prefer to hire from the regionals vs any other pilot group, military not included. I myself have never worked for a typical regional because I could never afford it!

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that for those who don't mind the extra work involved in fractional type of flying, cleaning the airplane, catering, putting it to bed, etc... It's not a bad gig, and pay is bound to improve as the industry grows.

 

[Dep676]

I suppose trainerjet you are the "Aviation God" because you fly the same routes every day or every month. That's real experience I suppose. You could probably brief the approach and the airport layout for every airport you frequent on all your trips without even looking at the chart. If that is what you call experience then I guess you are the king. I would call that complancent and boring. Money is everything if you aren't happy at what your doing then the money doesn't mean a thing. So just keep your qlorified "bus driver" job and be happy at flying the same routes and to the same airports the rest of your life. That is until the airline you are working at goes under or your get furloughed. Remember though don't apply to the fractional because you won't be able to handle change. You might actually have to brief an approach that you never ahd to shoot before. Or God forbid that your schedule gets changed in the middle of the night. By the way thanks for the compliment.

 

[furlough-boy]

I suppose trainerjet you are the "Aviation God" because you fly the same routes every day or every month. That's real experience I suppose. You could probably brief the approach and the airport layout for every airport you frequent on all your trips without even looking at the chart. If that is what you call experience then I guess you are the king. I would call that complancent and boring. Money is everything if you aren't happy at what your doing then the money doesn't mean a thing. So just keep your qlorified "bus driver" job and be happy at flying the same routes and to the same airports the rest of your life. That is until the airline you are working at goes under or your get furloughed. Remember though don't apply to the fractional because you won't be able to handle change. You might actually have to brief an approach that you never ahd to shoot before. Or God forbid that your schedule gets changed in the middle of the night. By the way thanks for the compliment.

Maybe you shouldn't comment on how much better fractional flying is until you've done both. Only two pilots have ever told me that they never had any interest in airline flying. They were both corporate guys that had never done it. I've done both and I have to agree with Rocker that if you want to work twice as hard for a fraction of the money than fractional is the way to go. Good luck

 

[Semore Butts]

Hold the phone

Here we go again.

I have done both, though briefly, I did get a taste of the 121 side, and I have worked at 2 fractionals.

The fractional busines has it's perks that the airlines don't as well as visa versa for sure.

As I said in a recent post, hopefully, we will all get to choose where we want to be in the future.

The fractional business is relatively new and is growing in popularity every day.

Even within the same company, attitudes can very depending on which fleet you are in. I like my fractional job, I liked my other fractional job, but I worked alot harder there. Guys I know in other fleets here work alot harder then I do.

That whole situation will help me to move up the seniority list and be allowed to bid different aircraft in the future. Many pilots senior to me have not been to the airlines, and the lure of the "big money" will send them on their way. Whether they will have made the right decision for them, well, time will tell ( I always seem to find myself saying that).

The fractional flying is alot more fun I think, except for the part about "poking" and "partying" with the flight attendants. (then again, I'm married so that's not really a big factor, and I'm not saying that every airline pilot is out there cheating on their spouses)

To you "furlough boy", your name says alot, sorry.

The fractional industry seems to be coming into it's own on what the pilots do and the pay they deserve, on the other hand the airlines seem to be cramming as many people on the Regional jets that they can in order to haul more people and pay the pilot about the same or less then a fractional pilots. (In most fractional cases, it's less)

I see all these orders for RJ's, which tells me that this practice is gonna continue.

I will say this, as a passenger going to work, riding on a "Jungle jet" for 2 and 1/2 hours reeks havoc on the ass for sure! Hopefully the traveling publics' opinion will change this more towards they way "it used to be".

 

[AppBrookie]

I spent 10 years at the airlines(7yrs at a decent regional and just over 3 at a major), currently at a "major" Fractional on a very high performance a/c. Words cannot describe how thankful I am to have this job in today's environment and I bust my butt workin to hang on to it. However, I will not make a lifelong career out of this: #1 reason is rest: It's not unusual to work till 2-3 am and then rest to be put on a totally opposite side of the clock schedule, it's much worse than doing stand-ups(continuous duty overnights) or red-eyes at the airlines. #2 Pay:
the utilization that they get out of us is unbelievable, we should be making at least 2-3 times what we are making for the amount of work we do, the limo drivers that drop our people off planeside make more than a majority of our captains. #3 Seniority: there's nothing to look forward to as you become more senior, except for a few more peanuts, no better schedule except the 7/7(which if you have a family is little too long in the tooth), as said before seniority means nothing on the road.
I have yet to meet anyone at a fractional with a background at a part 121, especially a major that would not jump at the chance at returning and not just for the obvious financial reasons.
On the plus side, we do stay in some very,very nice hotels, but just give me a decent, clean room and half of the cash from the savings.
We all know that the grass is greener, but if you are at a decent regional flying good equipment, give it some deep thought before making the jump.
Just speaking the truth, to each his own.

 

[MotoX]

You must be in either the Ten or Ultra!

 

[JetPilot500]

After reading this entire thread, all I can says is that it is very sad to see how UN-happy so many people are with their career.

If you are working the EJA 7/7 schedule, that means you are unhappy about 50% of your life! That cannot be healthy!

In all seriousness, maybe some of these people need to consider a Happier/Heathly Career.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500


P.S. Try Reading: "Who Moved My Cheese?"

 

[hawkercpt]

Kenn?

Is that you?