Found a new forum for General Lee

[canyonblue]

Come on General, I would like to see ya put some spunk in your fellow employees!

http://www.flightattendants.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=45931

 

[On Your Six]

I hear all of the "senior mamas" are the FAs remaining at Delta - and they're all paid much more than LCC flight attendants. Nice 1950's style hairdo! In their viewpoint, all of Delta's problems are attributed to the "stubborn" pilot group... What about management? Is there any accountability for management any more???????? Great idea to hire McKinsey for $milllions (Leo's ex firm) to create strategies that clearly aren't working well.... Who was responsible for hiring McKinsey? Money flowing out the door...

 

[bafanguy]

Didn't McKinsey help Rockin' ( "So Be It" ) Ronnie come up with Leadership 7.5 ?

 

[HA25]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... F/A's are very over paid, and very over unionized (I know DAL isn't, so don't correct me!) but they are nevertheless paid to keep up! and keep the unions out...And just the fact that they don't have union work rules they are saving the company $477M.

It used to be a job that a gal took for 2 or 4 years and then went on to do something with her self (like get married or go to college).. now they are filled with wifes of well paid pilots, and wifes of well paid lawyers, divorcees, and husbands earing to support famililes, etc...

That, along with 30 year pay scale CSR's and rampers is a good way to make sure airlines can't pay the professional in their system. (pilots, management, mechanics) decent wages and compete.

I mean, how much training does a CSR or Gate Agent, or Ramper need??? two weeks??? Now look at a mechanic, or Pilot, or even people in the accounting, dispatch, etc... end of the airline, they are "skilled" and deserve good pay.

I am staying in Ft. Meyers now on an overnite and in my hotel is a German LTU crew, the girls were all down stars having drinks at happy hour so I struck up a conversation. Not one of them was a day over 30, and evey last one of them was very happy to be doing what they are doing, even for relativly low wages. They all accepted that this was a job and not a career and even poked fun at how in the US so many F/A's are so old.

I mean if they were really there for our "Safety", then why the hell don't they have a manditory retirement age?? and where is their 1st,2nd even 3rd class medical??? Come on! wake up people!

The reason for the high cost at the major's isn't the 10,000 pilots that are all earing decent white collor wages, it's the other 70,000 unskilled workers that are earing $30,000-$80,000/year doing a job not much different that working at Walmart!

Finally, don't bring up SWA and how unionized they are!!! They are a totally diffenet model than the traditional flag carriers. SWA has only 1 Type, 737... that means MAJOR, MAJOR saving for pilot training, mechanic training, parts counter guy training, ramper training, gate agent training, etc.... they're cost savings are in their unque model that can only work with a domestic airline... so let's not compare apple with oranges. If SWA had to take on 5-8 different types and the mess that that brings on, their 2-3 cents per seat mile advantage would almost dissaprear!

I'll step off my soapbox now.

Cordially

 

[logjammer]

Come on General, I would like to see ya put some spunk in your fellow employees!

I hear he does alot of this anyway. Especially other captains?

 

[B190Captain]

I would like to see him respond to that thread.

 

[General Lee]

I would love to respond to it, and I get that same look from mainline flight attendants a lot and give them the real story. Most then agree with me. Most of them don't know that managment won't come to the table right now, and we have offered our first cut (about 14% including the 4.5% May raise) as an opener. I don't know how you guys go into a car dealership to buy a car(some stews must think we only buy Ferraris...)--but most of us go for a low ball offer first. Then you NEGOTIATE for something in between. The company won't even come back to the table---and we are the only ones with a contract at the company. You guys need to re-read our position AGAIN-----

April 2, 2004

Dear Fellow Pilot:

In this year’s annual report letter to shareholders, Delta management discusses the “permanently altered marketplace” and points to pilot costs as the main reason for Delta’s poor competitive position among the other network carriers. The fact remains that your union identified a legitimate need for contractual relief almost a year ago and has been attempting to negotiate with management ever since. Our relief package includes waiving the May 1 pay raise along with many other adjustments to reduce pilot costs. We are waiting to receive updated financial information from the company, which the CEO has promised will be forthcoming in the near term. As of this date, management has rebuffed our request to audit the pilots’ pension plan; I will continue to pursue this matter. While the offer to help the company still stands, let’s review the assistance the Delta pilots have already provided since our contract took effect in June 2001.

Consider the following, which ALPA granted without receiving any thing in return:

· Immediately following September 11, the union agreed to waive many contractual provisions, including the bow wave, over-projection, overtime and bank provisions. This allowed Delta to rebuild the airline cost effectively and resume operations expeditiously and smoothly.

· ALPA agreed to delay retrofitting of the contractually required B-777 rest facility, which saved the company tens of millions of dollars.

· ALPA negotiated a SIL agreement with management that allowed Delta to better manage the training pipeline and category staffing, saving millions of dollars, which was beneficial to both parties.

· The union agreed to new CRAF and MAC side letters, which permitted Delta to maximize its share of this lucrative flying, generating many millions of dollars in revenue.

· ALPA waived provisions of the Scope Clause, the bedrock of our contract, to allow Delta to move forward on potential revenue-generating initiatives. These include:

Approved the DAL/NWA/CAL code-share arrangement, which Delta estimates will enhance revenues by $250 million annually.
Approved contractual branding flexibility that permitted management to operate Song as an “airline within an airline” and compete with low cost carriers.
In Contracts 1990, 1996 and 2001, we provided scope flexibility that allowed Delta to adapt quickly to the changes in the revenue environment with the use of small jets, while other airlines were forced to address the RJ issue in crisis bargaining. It is also important to remember that we are operating with 18 percent fewer pilots since September 11, with 1,060 pilots on furlough and hundreds more retired and not replaced.

Finally, as referenced above, the union agreed to enter into mid-contract talks and offered hundreds of millions of dollars in cost reductions, including our May 1, 2004, pay raise. Rather than negotiate, management has continued with its “all or nothing” approach. Even so, your union has kept the door open for continued discussions. We are ready and willing to do our part, as we have demonstrated repeatedly since Contract 2001 was signed.

We are only one side of the negotiating equation. For this time-proven process to work, management must become equally engaged and willing to find a solution that is right for Delta.



I think that says it all, and I would like to hand this out to every stew that gives me crap---to show them that we have helped already, and we would like to again---if the other side gets serious.

Bye Bye---General Lee



PS--Logjamer---only when the Captain is my wife....she is the PIC

 

[canyonblue]

I agree with ya General. The other groups keep voting out the Unions, but want the Pilots to take a cut. It doesn't work that way. If they want protection from the company, get a Union. They can't have it both ways. My wife is a Flight Attendant at another carrier and they also want pay cuts. They even showed them what the other Airline employees make, and you know what, the Delta employees (csa's, F/A's, Ramp, etc) are either the highest, or close to the highest paid. I know the company does this to keep the unions out, but now they are seeing the downside.

 

[General Lee]

Canyon Blue,

Another thing some people don't realize is the age of our "average" mainline flight attendant. Most have more than 15 years, and compare that to a new LCC flight attendant---ours makes 5 times more per hour, and are a lot less productive and less friendly. But, the only costs our management projects to the public is the pilot costs vs the LCCs. Our management is doing whatever they can to appease the others---while giving us a bullseye. It is soo obvious---and some people on this board cannot see that. I have never said that I do not think we deserve a pay cut---we do. But, it should be fair--and I don't mind taking a large one as long as everyone has some sort of cut--the amount can vary--absolutely. We, the mainline pilots, should take the lion's share--but we are all in this together.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

Canyon Blue,

Another thing some people don't realize is the age of our "average" mainline flight attendant. Most have more than 15 years, and compare that to a new LCC flight attendant---ours makes 5 times more per hour, and are a lot less productive and less friendly. But, the only costs our management projects to the public is the pilot costs vs the LCCs. Our management is doing whatever they can to appease the others---while giving us a bullseye. It is soo obvious---and some people on this board cannot see that. I have never said that I do not think we deserve a pay cut---we do. But, it should be fair--and I don't mind taking a large one as long as everyone has some sort of cut--the amount can vary--absolutely. We, the mainline pilots, should take the lion's share--but we are all in this together.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, why are you always comparing the mainline DL FA's to LCC FA's? You get all ticked off when some compares your pay to the LCC's, but then you turn around and do the same thing! No one is asking you or any DL employee to make LCC wages. Everything I've seen, Grinstein compares your pay to UA and AA....which are two of your biggest competitors and not LCC's.

Of course, you once again discredit yourself by saying that DL FA's make 5x what LCC's make. I guess that means DL FA's are pulling down 100-150K a year....yeah right.

You're right that everyone should share in the sacrifice. All of the non-contract employees have already given heavily in the areas of productivity and benefits. Yes, they're pay is slightly above average, but when you factor in their productivity, they have costs that are competitive with other network competitors. The pilots are the only group at DL whose overall package (pay, benefits, productivity) is NOT competitive with the other network carriers....note I'm NOT comparing you to LCC's.

Why should non-contract employees have to give pay, if they've already given in terms of productivity and benefits? If DALPA doesn't want to give pay, that's fine. Just give up enough in benefits and productivity to offset your above average pay.

Of course DL management wants to keep the others happy...look at the effect one union is having on DL? Do you think DL could survive if they had more unions to deal with...I doubt it.

Every DL pilot should be very glad the other employees aren't unionized. The flexibility DL management has to take from the others has allowed DL to keep the pilot pay high for so long. Notice that the UA pilots weren't able to keep their industry leading pay and quickly found themselves in BK when other unionized groups couldn't agree on concessions. Sure the UA pilots were willing to give before BK, but it didn't matter because another group pulled the trigger. The DL pilots don't have to worry about that.

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,

First of all, if we don't give--then YOU WILL GIVE. We all know that you are really trying to protect your own interests here primarily. No doubt in that. You aren't just a "good samaritan."

Next, the flight attendants have a 3% paycut overall---and yes--they did get some other cuts like the raising of their medical premiums, etc. Those same type of cuts could have been negotiated over here, but they were not. We have been willing to discuss all of those types of cuts--including per diem cuts, probably vacation cuts, maybe a slight increase in productivity via a cap increase--tied to future recalls, and even some scope relief (rememeber, I am not a negotiator). These things have all been on the table, and we started with a low offer---which has only been countered with a very very high offer and nothing else. Remember here, we are coming to the table EARLY---ready to open up mid-contract talks. We didn't have to do that--no we didn't. We offered a lot more relief since 9-11 also--(please re-read again for the tenth time the MEC summary). The 10,000 mechanics have only had the premiums raised on their medical---and they are up for a pay review in July. The reason our medical premiums have stayed the same is because it is in our contract---and the company refuses to negotiate. Can you see the light yet?

As far as comparing wages---our stews do make a lot more than UA or AA stews---and that is the truth. But, our company still refuses to give them more than a 3% pay cut. (that is what the average is after adding the extra 7 or 8 hours of flying they now do every month) Yeah, that sounds like more productivity---but they took out seats from the planes (4 seats in the 738 for example) to require less stews on board. They can't do that with us---even though they parked the 727s and L1011s---tossing the need for an FE.

Yes, our company has more flexibility with only one union---you are correct. That also means they can do even more if they needed to. We are still waiting for a serious response---and one that will pass. We are ready to negotiate---and hopefully Grinstein will come up with a good plan at the same time. I haven't really talked to one of our pilots that isn't willing to give up pay etc.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

Medflyer,

Delta's management would like to compare Delta with AA. However, Delta's balance sheet is much stronger than AA's back then. Management seems to be running the airline into the ground so that the balance sheets can be SIMILAR in order to force the pilots to accept AA wages. Why would any pilot support the "bar" going down to those levels for 777 flying?

Clearly, if Delta pilots are forced down to AA levels, then both ASA and Comair should be forced down to MESA levels - it would ONLY BE FAIR... This is a company-wide problem and all employees should contribute to a company-wide solution.

Hey Medflyer, would you be in favor of reducing your income to comparable MESA levels (CRJ wages)? Afterall, your parent company needs the money to compete better... I am curious to know your response and rationale why you shouldn't be paid what your CRJ peers are paid (because that is what you are suggesting Delta pilots should do).

 

[lowlycfi]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... F/A's are very over paid, and very over unionized (I know DAL isn't, so don't correct me!) but they are nevertheless paid to keep up! and keep the unions out...And just the fact that they don't have union work rules they are saving the company $477M.

It used to be a job that a gal took for 2 or 4 years and then went on to do something with her self (like get married or go to college).. now they are filled with wifes of well paid pilots, and wifes of well paid lawyers, divorcees, and husbands earing to support famililes, etc...

Dude, why so hostile....did you get rejected by a stew on your last layover?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Clearly, if Delta pilots are forced down to AA levels, then both ASA and Comair should be forced down to MESA levels - it would ONLY BE FAIR... This is a company-wide problem and all employees should contribute to a company-wide solution.

Different companies with very different levels of financial performance. One is making money and subsidizing the losses of the other already, not the other way around.
I know that misery loves company, but wouldn't it be in mainline pilot's best interest to keep ASA/CMR costs higher to prevent further outsourcing of "their" flying?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

"company-wide problem"?
Excuse me but as vehemently pointed out by MOST of the mainline pilots, ASA/Comair are NOT part of the 'company'. So tell me why we should go even further down the chain? 15k a year, first yr fo work for you? 2nd maybe 24? Let's see...first yr at DL...56/hr....2nd...114/hr. OH! okay, got it. We are WAY to close to mainline pay.....sheesh, I'm sorry. Can't believe I didn't get that earlier.
uh-huh.

 

[General Lee]

ATR-Driver,

Relax man, don't get too emotional here. I know that YOU KNOW that we are all a part of one large parent company that whipsaws us all against each other. Obviously there are some pilots at ASA/Comair that make very little money---and there are Delta pilots that make a lot of money. Those are the normal generalizations. (Yes, even junior Delta pilots make great money---but not even close to senior guys) But, there are those at the top of Comair who make over $100,000 a year on an RJ--and even though that may be great (I think so)----our management thinks it should be lower. (just like our whole pay package at mainline should be lower....) ON YOUR SIX stated to Medflyer that instead of only bashing Delta pilots---maybe he should think about Management wanting all of us to be compared to our peers---the other airlines in our size group. I doubt many guys at Mesa make close to Comair wages---just like very few AA and UAL pilots make close to DAL wages. It seems to have shut up Medflyer---which was the point I believe. He likes to slam everyone who makes good wages and tries to compare them to their peers---but won't compare his own salary to his own peers.... I know some of you make crap wages, and I don't think they will change much---but this really is a company wide problem, and don't let your profits on the DCI side fool you----a lot of your expenses are paid by mainline. (Our CFO confirmed that in a CVG meeting) I have a feeling we at mainline will take larger cuts than you will overall in a percentage basis. Relax my friend.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[erika]

You know, (and this is NOT targeted at GL or anyone else in particular), I think it is shortsighted for "mainline pilots" to want "regional pilots" to take any pay cuts.

1) It continues to seperate the pilot group (ALPA, is for UNITY, right?)

2) If they work for less, it will apply downward pressure on your pay scale in the future.

3) If the work for less, it will make flying RJ's instead of "mainline"
AC more favorable (IE--jobs lost at mainline).

Mainline pilots should want RJ drivers to make as much as possible, if for no other reason then to protect their own jobs and pay.

Erik

 

[XRMEFLYER]

I have a feeling we at mainline will take larger cuts than you will overall in a percentage basis. Relax my friend.....

Ah the calming voice of reason. In that case...

I have a feeling you will too as you all seem to have resigned yourselves to that(cuts of some magnitude)being a reality, whereas we have not and will accept nothing of the sort.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

3) If the work for less, it will make flying RJ's instead of "mainline"
AC more favorable (IE--jobs lost at mainline).

Mainline pilots should want RJ drivers to make as much as possible, if for no other reason then to protect their own jobs and pay




You are correct, and they know it. I'm guessing one of them will attempt to discredit you based on your relative lack of experience and completely sidestep the issue.

 

[General Lee]

xremeflyer,

You will if we go Chap 11. No doubt. I would start cheering us on to hopefully get some sort of deal (which I want too)--because otherwise you and Medflyer will also be seeing a smaller check every two weeks. (a lot smaller than mine......) I hope we can negotiate eventually--and I bet after we see Grinstein's plans in July--something MAY happen.....maybe.

And, I won't discredit anyone(except you xremeflyer). The fact is that Comair and ASA see that larger aircaft will be needed to combat lower airfares by the growing LCCs--and that RJs will become largely irrelevant in the future. So, Comair and ASA are getting worried and they want the larger aircraft--at lower rates---to stay in the game. The regionals are really bringing down the rates---and that is a fact. (Mesa is getting 737-300s---at CR9 rates) The Comair and RJDC boys want to bring the rates down
because they can see the future too---lower fares and larger aircraft to spread out the costs....


Bye Bye--General Lee