Former AA Union chief Darrah comments

[satpak77]

http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/08/news/fortune500/american_air.reut/index.htm

 

[80drvr]

http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/08/news/fortune500/american_air.reut/index.htm

Darrah wrote this to validate his tenure at APA's helm. He needs fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) to mask the APA's complete failures at the negotiating table.

And for the record, I think concessions were necessary, but not to the extent that APA caved. I think anyone who is at AA knows what I'm talking about.

 

[satpak77]

roger that

roger

wonder what DAL's union chief is thinking right now, post-Darrah

see ya

 

[CSY Mon]

Hmm, dunno.
Thought the situation was pretty grave back then when we voted yes or no.

I voted for my own furlough, somewhat reluctantly.. Yet, a BK would have meant more and longer furloughs.
At the time we were loosing $5 to $7 mill per day..Does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that the pot will be empty one day.

It took Pan-Am 10 years to bleed to death..Glad we stopped it at AA, hopefully the patient will recover fully.

Flew with J. Darrah almost 20 years ago...We were both at Eastern Metro Express in STX..Nice guy back then.

 

[pilotyip]

Air Transport World

ATW says AA is in the best shape of the legacy carriers due to it ability to control growth in labour costs.

 

[EagleRJ]

Thought the situation was pretty grave back then...

...or at least that's what the employees were meant to think! AMR was sure making a highly-publicized display of the gravity of the financial situation, and the fact that they needed yes votes on concessions within 24 hours or they would file Chapter 11. Then the flight attendants had their vote tally problem, and the company granted an extention. Yes votes in hand, the crisis pretty much evaporated and there wasn't another word said about the looming financial crisis.

It's possible that the situation was as bad as the company said it was, but it's also possible that a company as shrewd and cunning as AMR saw an opportunity for "free" concessions and decided to take it. Although the company is losing money every day, last I saw they have $3.5 Billion in cash and equity in reserve.

We're at a disadvantage in returning this company to profitability, here, due to the distrust between labor and management. If the time comes that they really truly need our help, I don't know if we'll believe them. That's the environment they've constructed over the last 30 years, and it may come back to haunt them now.

 

[CSY Mon]

...or at least that's what the employees were meant to think!

Yes, I am belived them, so did 69% of the AA pilots.

Been through all that before: Invested 7 years with Tower Air and watched then go slowly but surely out of business, first the money saving measures, then chapter 11, then chapter 7...Poof, all gone.

BTW, the Eagle pilots did not get hurt too bad: No pay cuts, no furloughs....?

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Well CSY,

When you already work as much as we do for the peanuts we do, its easy to see from a business point of view. If it aint broke or bleeding money.....

We are just the little red headed stepchildren of AA. Takin it in the A$$ from either AA or APA, depending on the day of the week!

 

[CSY Mon]

Takin it in the A$ from either AA or APA, depending on the day of the week!

Ya mean AMR.., not AA?

As for APA screwing ya: Flowback?
Yes, not pleasant to have those pesky AA guys come in and take yer seat, but ALPA is suing to get the flow-throughs in AA before any furloughed guys are recalled.
At least the Eagle guys keep a job and a pay-check...Many of us are not so fortunate.

In the past many of us have worked long hours in the commuter business for peanuts.
Goes with the job I guess.

Got my turbine time from EME back in the 80s, then jumped to Evergreen to haul cargo around the world.
Did not hang around the commuter world long enough to grow bitter anyway.

(Back then left seat on 19 pax turbo-prop was $20.00 per hour, needless to say we voted in ALPA and got a contract after a long struggle)

 

[EagleRJ]

BTW, the Eagle pilots did not get hurt too bad: No pay cuts, no furloughs....?

Actually, 300+ furloughs (15% of the group). Some pilots were furloughed, brought back, and then furloughed again!

As for pay, it puts things in perspective when an AA captain in your crashpad is bashing you for bringing the industry down with the RJ, and wondering how he is going to get by on $105,000 a year after his displacement. You sit there as a reserve FO, commuting involuntarily, making $18,000/yr. and hoping for an upgrade four or five years down the road, and you hold your tounge.

Cost savings can still be found in several places at AMR. The AE pilot group is not one of them. We're already doing more than our share of the work for less than our share of the benefits!

 

[AAflyer]

According to AMR SEC filings,

For the first three months of 2004,

Operating revenue from Regional Affiliates was at $420,000,000
Operating Costs of Regional Affiliates was at $487,000,000

As for the whinning captain. As he is booted out of his seat, as we are beaten up about how Major airline pilot pay is evil of the world, Eagle is now hiring like wildfire.

Here is what I find very funny, the amount applying to work at AE for peanuts, and then within 5-6 months are bitching about everything under the sun.

The billions AMR saved off the backs of mainline employees are now being used to finance RJs, and cities like CLE are now disappearing right underneath our nose. How funny, DAL,NWA,CAL,UAL all have mainline flights, but little ol AMR just can not make the money they hoped to out of there. They have only been providing service to CLE for the past 35 years.

Please do not tell me how we are still so expensive as crew members, our employee CASMs are the lowest of the mainline carriers.

AAflyer
(formerly AEFlyer) SF340 for Simmons.

 

[Draginass]

The well is dry at AE as far as cost savings. AE ALPA already gave AMR a great bottom barrel contract in 97. At AA, OTOH, there's more gold in the mine where the last came from and it's called Pensions.

As far as btch'in, AE complaining falls on deaf ears to me. The guys who've signed on since '97 knew what the contract was when they signed on with a couple hundred ME time, and now want to blame everybody else except themselves for their plight. I'm kind a' tired of listening about how bad their pushies ache. Getting pretty tired of being vilified and called every vile name under the sun, too. When they take 20% furloughes and a 23% paycut instead of growing and having mainline flying transfered to them, I'll hand them the lanocane.

 

[JJGMADDOG]

EagleRJ

"You sit there as a reserve FO, commuting involuntarily, making $18,000/yr. and hoping for an upgrade four or five years down the road, and you hold your tounge."


Why would any FO at eagle want to sit around and wait for an upgrade. Move on my friend and find another company to get some turbine PIC time. In the early 90's I purposely stayed away from eagle for that same reason....historically upgrades have always been forever there!! Get out of dodge...because with these flowbacks its going to be a long time to upgrade!!

 

[EagleRJ]

...find another company to get some turbine PIC time.

Why? So when you get 1500 hours you can get hired by American or Delta? I remember those days!

In case you haven't noticed, it's a tight market out there. Most of our FOs are considering moving elsewhere, but corporate/charter isn't for everyone, and lateral moves to other regionals are risky, especially nowdays. It's frustrating knowing what this company could be like, and then seeing our flying farmed out to other airlines and our jet captain seats going to AA furloughs (which was an agreed-on part of the deal, I know, but you have to admit AE pilots are getting the short end of the stick.).

AAflyer-
I'm sure you'll agree that AMR can shuffle money around to show whatever it is that they need to show financially.
According to the DOT, American Eagle is the most profitable of the regional carriers- that's Profit with a captial 'P' and no parentheses- $53.8 Million of it the first quarter of this year to be precise.

Link

 

[surplus1]

The well is dry at AE as far as cost savings. AE ALPA already gave AMR a great bottom barrel contract in 97. At AA, OTOH, there's more gold in the mine where the last came from and it's called Pensions.

When they take 20% furloughes and a 23% paycut instead of growing and having mainline flying transfered to them, I'll hand them the lanocane.

Dragin,

I have a suggestion for ya.

1) Get the APA to agree to give up the A plan.

2) Give up your longevity credits (like USAirways did) and then agree to fly those AE jets on the AE contract and payscale.

3) In exchange, get AMR to transfer all of the AE jets to AA without their pilots.

That should get most if not all of the furloughed AA pilots jobs + plus a substantial number of the TWA guys. The AE guys will just have to fly the turboprops. That would get them the furlough rate and pay cut you suggest, stop them from flying your routes and end all the bi'chin that bothers you.

Who knows, it might work.

 

[JJGMADDOG]

EagleRj

"In case you haven't noticed, it's a tight market out there"

Aahh, I have noticed, I'm furloughed my friend.

Short end of the stick....come on....don't be so naive. As in the previous post...guys that went to eagle knew well in advanced that there was a possibility of flowbacks in the event of an economic downturn, so stop complaining....if you gonna whine about your 18k...go to another regional and make your 18k with a possiblity of a shorter upgrade time. Your wasting your time at eagle wondering about what could have and should have!!!

 

[AAflyer]

The Great Surplus,

Over 2 years on this board and you are still the same.
ALPA and mainline pilots, all evil.

AA

 

[EagleRJ]

EagleRj

"In case you haven't noticed, it's a tight market out there"

Aahh, I have noticed, I'm furloughed my friend.

Short end of the stick....come on....don't be so naive. As in the previous post...guys that went to eagle knew well in advanced that there was a possibility of flowbacks in the event of an economic downturn, so stop complaining....if you gonna whine about your 18k...go to another regional and make your 18k with a possiblity of a shorter upgrade time. Your wasting your time at eagle wondering about what could have and should have!!!

No one expected the flow-back to happen. Not the AA pilots, nor AMR, nor the APA, nor AE pilots- current or prospective. It was written as an afterthought, and that's why it is so poorly written, and why it's causing such problems right now.

Believe it or not, I'm against the proliferation of the RJs, at the cost of mainline narrowbody flying. The RJ has its place, but when it grows at the cost of mainline flying (as Management is trying to deploy it), my future and the futures of other regional pilots are impacted negatively. I'm sure most other regional pilots feel the same, except for the ones who aspire to retire on an RJ (RJDC, are you listening?)

Best wishes for a speedy recall!

 

[surplus1]

Believe it or not, I'm against the proliferation of the RJs, at the cost of mainline narrowbody flying. The RJ has its place, but when it grows at the cost of mainline flying (as Management is trying to deploy it), my future and the futures of other regional pilots are impacted negatively. I'm sure most other regional pilots feel the same, except for the ones who aspire to retire on an RJ (RJDC, are you listening?)

The error in your thinking is prevalent. It began at the mainline and it has trickled down to the regional, but it's still voodoo economics. The RJ or for that matter any other airframe will proliferate in accordance with market needs,i.e., the right size airplane for the right size market. The RJ is not replacing narrowbody flying, it is merely a smaller narrow body filling a market need. The real problem is not the RJ, it is who is flying it. Aspirations of where you would like to retire are noble but they have nothing to do with the equation.

If the RJ was operated by the mainline it would obviously be flown by mainline pilots and we would then call it a "mainline aircraft" and ourselves "mainline pilots". It would pay the same as it pays now or probably less due to the higher "burden" of the mainline infrastructure. The mainline pilot would then fly it under a "special" contract provision/division and it would become the new hire's first assignment. It would grow or proliferate at the same rate, based on market needs. The only difference would be that today's "regional" pilot would have a number on a mainline list and could eventually "progress" to larger equipment. However, the length of time he/she would spend in the RJ, with associated low wages and poor contracts, would change little. The mainline would experience "growth", but that growth would all be in the RJ division just as it is today.

The idea that the RJ is deployed "at the cost of mainline flying" is a fallacy because it wants you to believe that RJs would all be 737s, DC-9s or heaven forbid Fockers, if only the regional airlines did not exist. That isn't true. You would simply have the same number of RJs or most likely more of them, operated by the mainline.

Mainline pilots did not want to work for RJ pay and regional style contracts so they allowed that work to be outsourced by choice. There was enough of the "good stuff" around to keep them happy so they gave away the stuff they considered undesirable. "Regional airlines" are the creation of mainline pilots. No matter how they look at it, there is no one to blame for the two tier system but themselves.

Now that the boom has become a bust the mainline pilot is quite happy to fly an RJ, for regional wages, and is doing everything he can to take it from the regional pilots or, when that fails, put himself in the cockpit at a "regional airline" and displace the regional pilot; we have such goodies as flow-backs and Jets for Jobs (the mainline pilots' version of a "seniority grab").

Gentlemen the debate is not about RJ proliferation, its about JOBS. When my job as a regional pilot isn't good enough for a mainline pilot he doesn't care how many RJs the company has at its "feeders" or where they go. As soon as that mainline pilot loses his job because there is no profitable market for his 737, he blames it on the RJ (and my cheap labor) ..... but he also wants to take my job in that RJ so that he will not be unemployed and I will instead. That may be good for him, but the regional pilot who gives up his job to that mainline pilot is best described as a sucker.

At AE, where you come from, there's a perfect example. You (AE) wanted a flow through to AA. You literally begged for it and you got what you asked for. You were so wide eyed by the prospect of a handful of you getting a number at AA, that you allowed the APA to sucker you into a one-sided deal. It didn't matter because a few of your most senior pilots would get a "dream job" at AA and it was not important if you screwed your own juniors in the process. You never figured out WHY they "gave" you a flow through. Hell you even allowed them to insert two whole airlines between you and the magic number at AA. Now that they are furloughed and you are being displaced by a flock of junior AA and TWA pilots who take your captain slots, you're complaining and even blaming it on the very RJ you fly. Its remarkable how readily pilots complain when they are getting screwed, instead of the other guy.

Yes, it would be simpler if all those RJs were operated by the mainline. The only reason they are not is because the mainline pilot did not want to do such lowly work and farmed it out. It was a mistake but it was a mainline pilots mistake... a modern day version of the infamous B scale. Trying to close the barn door after the horse has escaped or blaming somebody else is a day late and a dollar short.

Two "major" airlines (at least in theory) are now going to operate RJs at the mainline. USAirways will call it a "division" and U pilots will fly the RJ at MAA, with no contract, no longevity, and for Eagle pay rates. They will later "flow up" to the same airplane they were flying only a few months before in their own airline, which by the way, is no longer the gravy train it once was. The other quasi major is Jet Blue. They will deploy a "big RJ", but they will fly it with no contract and a pay scale considerably lower than mine. In fact so much lower that it will probably force my airline into concessionary bargaining and I will lose pay and benefits, so that they can have "one list". Of course I can always apply at JBlue and get a "mainline job" for half my current pay. Such a deal.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, every other "mainline" will be forced eventually to "match their rates" and fly the AirBus or its equivalent for JBlue wages, without the fancy work rules and the very nice A plan. There is of course another option. They can stick to their current contracts and watch, as the JBlue RJs (otherwise known as A320) and the AirTran RJs (otherwise known as B717) replace mainline narrowbody flying.

The NW pilots have just proposed that they fly the 70-seat RJ at the mainline. They will have to negotiate the terms. If they chose to fly it at NW with a contract that makes its costs the equivalent of Mesaba or Pinnacle they will probably get to do that and then they'll call it a "mainline aircraft" instead of a small jet. If the won't fly it for those wages and terms, then they won't get that flying at all. If they get it, they will not say that it is "replacing narrow body flying", they will say it is "new equipment". Since they have 700 pilots on furlough, those are the people that will fly this "new mainline aircraft". They will simply become a lower class of mainline pilot. They will be happy and MSA and PCL guys will simply lose a chance to grow some. Maybe they'll get one of those wonderful flow-through agreemest as a placebo. Does that make the NW guys evil mainline pilots? NO. Self preservation is nature's first law. Just don't tell me that its preventing the proliferation of RJs 'cause it isn't. It is merely shifting who flys them.

I say again, this is not an airframe (RJ) problem, its an economic problem. It's about money and jobs. Times have changed and will continue to change. The days of $150/hr copilots in 737s and DC-9s as well as $300/hr captains in 747s and 777s, with multi million dollar retirement packages are history. Make no mistake, I'm not gloating over this and I wish it were not happening. I also wish I could do something to change it, but I know that giving up my RJ job under the illusion that it will therefore become a 737 FO job at Delta is a crock.

I'm probably stupid, but I like my $100/hr job as a senior RJ captain and I don't want to exchange the advantages of my seniority for an FO position at the bottom of a 10,000 pilot seniority list or a job at a 5-year old carrier with an uncertain future for 1/2 the pay or less; I'm not 20 or 30 yrs old and I'm not wet behind the ears. The size of my gonads do not change with the length of the fuselage. I'll probably have to take a pay cut to keep my job, just like all my mainline buddies, but I'd much rather do that than wind up standing in the unemployment line calling myself a "mainline pilot". What's more, knowing that I had been displaced by a 2-year furloughed copilot from the mainline would not increase that government check and it would not make me feel better about myself.

Perhaps one day we'll get it back to where one company only operates one airline and we're all on a single list but the idea of holding my breath until it happens is not exciting. The mainline jobs aren't going to vanish completely but neither are they going to revert to the good old days anytime soon. WalMart has come to town and its here to stay. The mainline guys are just PO'd because they have to give up Nieman Marcus and shop at WalMart instead. Grin and bear it.

 

[BeeFCaKe]

Interesting to read your philosophical preponderances...



Thanks for the insight. "This is the way it is, Tough **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**..."