Foreign Ownership/Open Skys bill on it's way to Pres

[Flopgut]

We can.......

Attend LEC meetings...
Read Flying the Line Vol I & II
Vote in LEC elections
Participate in ALPA-PAC

or

Bury our heads in the sand and hope our jobs are here tomorrow...


by the way why would KLM/AF or LH or whoever hire us? Any gurantees? I should've paid attention in French class...

Rez: Good stuff. I think folks can skip the reading though. (less than factual) DO the other stuff AND call your rep every week!

 

[Flopgut]

I don't think the bar can be any lower, 1 year pay at CO is 30000/Y, have you looked at JB pay rate? Don't forget that the FO has to dump the Blue Juice between flight. Have you looked at CHQ 170 Rates? Mesa CRJ 900 Rates?

I can't wait bor LH, BA, KLM to by us it can only be better...

IMHO, never look at first year. It's often probationary, every year after that is what counts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: Good stuff. I think folks can skip the reading though. (less than factual) DO the other stuff AND call your rep every week!

Why would you say it isn't factual? I am pressing you to respond...

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
Read "Flying the Line" sometime. Sure it's pro-labor but you might get an understanding of how things were before pilots had any representation.
.


Actually it isn't pro labor. George Hopkins initially wrote The Airline Pilots: A Study in Elite Unionization, 1971. He was asked by ALPA to write Flying the Line Vol. I, 1982. An incredible read with some dry spots. However required for anyone who gives 1.95% of their income.

Hopkins was asked again to write the second part, published in 2000, which included deregulation. You think Lorenzo was bad? Read about EL Cord. Also CR Smith whom AMR has named thier beloved museum after.


With copy of Vol II in hand turn to page XII of the Preface.

Hopkins, the books' author writes




Quote:

JJ O'Donnell [then ALPA's president] asked me to write another history commemorating the unions 50th anniversary. With the understanding that I would give ALPA its history "warts and all," I agreed.

The result was Flying the Line; the First Half Century of the Airline Pilots Association, published in 1982. My interpretation of ALPA's history was not censored. I work for Western Illionis University specifically and for an abstraction called history" generally. Although frankly nervous about the book, O'Donnell understood that prettified "court history" praising the King (so to speak) would be worthless. If pilots were to derive insight from my book, it had to be free to go wherever truth took it.

 

[Flopgut]

Why would you say it isn't factual? I am pressing you to respond...

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
Read "Flying the Line" sometime. Sure it's pro-labor but you might get an understanding of how things were before pilots had any representation.
.


Actually it isn't pro labor. George Hopkins initially wrote The Airline Pilots: A Study in Elite Unionization, 1971. He was asked by ALPA to write Flying the Line Vol. I, 1982. An incredible read with some dry spots. However required for anyone who gives 1.95% of their income.

Hopkins was asked again to write the second part, published in 2000, which included deregulation. You think Lorenzo was bad? Read about EL Cord. Also CR Smith whom AMR has named thier beloved museum after.


With copy of Vol II in hand turn to page XII of the Preface.

Hopkins, the books' author writes




Quote:

JJ O'Donnell [then ALPA's president] asked me to write another history commemorating the unions 50th anniversary. With the understanding that I would give ALPA its history "warts and all," I agreed.

The result was Flying the Line; the First Half Century of the Airline Pilots Association, published in 1982. My interpretation of ALPA's history was not censored. I work for WesternIllionisUniversity specifically and for an abstraction called history" generally. Although frankly nervous about the book, O'Donnell understood that prettified "court history" praising the King (so to speak) would be worthless. If pilots were to derive insight from my book, it had to be free to go wherever truth took it.

Lets NOT get bogged down in this, but: The books do not fairly characterize ALPA's actions with regard to New York Air pilots, returning CAL strikers, and the actions of UAL pilot's deception of the original FAL pilots.

OK, having said that, let's NOT get bogged down with minutiae that only I care about.

When's the tea party?

 

[AceCrackshot]

[Posting of Duane's Verbal Diarrhea Edited]

Rez:

1) Duane's testimony does not an effective response make.

2) Getting active? My point is ALPA's failure to adequately address any of the great challeges it has faced since 1978...to wit:

a) Deregulation-esp. the .gov picking winners and losers
b) Politicitization of the NTSB- esp the 73 Rudder Hardover investigation
c) Pension Reform (twice, late 80s and now)-
d) Small Jets- early 90s to today
e) Foreign Ownership- a threat for 30 years, now probably inevitable

ALPA has shown consistantly that the short term best interest of a protected group of pilots outweighs the best interest of the collective whole. This has had the effect of destroying the base from which ALPA derives its strength for barginning. Rez, ALPA is broken and probably won't be fixed. Especially as long a DW operates to save his pension and that of his friends and ignores the the long term trends.

I sat next to the senior counsel for the Transportation Committee for two weeks. What did he have to say about the remaining clout of ALPA vs. say, AOPA? Hint, if you like to fly, buy a Cirrus.

 

[Flopgut]

Reuters
Congress won't block airline investment plan
Thursday June 8, 5:57 pm ET
By John Crawley
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Congress will allow a Bush administration proposal aimed at attracting foreign investment in U.S. airlines to proceed, despite security concerns among some lawmakers, officials said on Thursday.
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[URL="http://us.a2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/th/the_motley_fool/300x250_sa-double_logo_124_020306.gif"]http://us.a2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/th/the_motley_fool/300x250_sa-double_logo_124_020306.gif[/URL]if (window.yzq_a == null) document.write("");if (window.yzq_a){yzq_a('p', 'P=ZubfSdhtfJA2crcWQ63dmAAGRPA6oUSJeNwABPre&T=1b3t9jiee%2fX%3d1149860060%2fE%3d54387792%2fR%3dfin%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d1.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d2498555729%2fH%3dY29icmFuZD0iPGEgaHJlZj1odHRwOi8vd3d3LnJldXRlcnMuY29tPjxpbWcgYm9yZGVyPTAgc3JjPWh0dHA6Ly91cy5uZXdzMi55aW1nLmNvbS91cy55aW1nLmNvbS9wL2ZpL3ByLzQ0MzExLmdpZiBhbHQ9UmV1dGVycz48L2E.IiBjYWNoZWhpbnQ9IjU0Mzg3NzkyIiBjYWNoZWhpbnQ9IjU0Mzg3NzkyIg--%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d8E7C6DD8');yzq_a('a', '&U=139qhh58s%2fN%3dEsQDBdhtfGA-%2fC%3d373368.8040769.8867526.1522738%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d3278685');}http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=ZubfSdhtfJA2crcWQ63dmAAGRPA6oUSJeNwABPre&T=1b849gd4p%2fX%3d1149860060%2fE%3d54387792%2fR%3dfin%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d2616716174%2fH%3dY29icmFuZD0iPGEgaHJlZj1odHRwOi8vd3d3LnJldXRlcnMuY29tPjxpbWcgYm9yZGVyPTAgc3JjPWh0dHA6Ly91cy5uZXdzMi55aW1nLmNvbS91cy55aW1nLmNvbS9wL2ZpL3ByLzQ0MzExLmdpZiBhbHQ9UmV1dGVycz48L2E.IiBjYWNoZWhpbnQ9IjU0Mzg3NzkyIiBjYWNoZWhpbnQ9IjU0Mzg3NzkyIg--%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d8E7C6DD8&U=139qhh58s%2fN%3dEsQDBdhtfGA-%2fC%3d373368.8040769.8867526.1522738%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d3278685Lawmakers negotiating final details of emergency war spending and hurricane relief legislation have agreed to drop language in the bill that would have delayed the airline proposal for a year, House and Senate aides said.
The language was the central obstacle to the plan to give foreign investors more say in airline operations, within the existing 25 percent voting stock limit.
The revised investment rules, which the U.S. Transportation Department plans to finalize as early as this summer, also keeps on track a tentative deal between U.S. and European Union negotiators to further open transatlantic service, especially greater access for U.S. airlines to London's Heathrow airport.
The investment rule change is strongly opposed by Continental Airlines (NYSE:CAL - News) but UAL Corp.'s (NasdaqNM:UAUA - News) United Airlines is supportive of the move.
A spokesman for the department said transportation planners will "continue to move forward" with the proposal, which was introduced last November and updated several weeks ago to address congressional concerns.
Current rules give foreign investors little or no influence on operating decisions, conditions that have discouraged foreigners, with a few exceptions, from taking an interest in U.S. carriers.
The Bush administration and other proponents say the changes are overdue to help an industry where four big airlines have fallen into bankruptcy since 2002 and high costs and losses define much of the business.
Supporters contend that giving foreigners influence over pricing, scheduling, fleet plans and other operating issues for their stake could expand the pool of investors in U.S. airlines, encourage competition and enhance partnerships.
Previous attempts to ease the restrictions have withered on Capitol Hill and current congressional objections centered on national security concerns, which were sharpened by the controversy earlier this year over whether a Dubai-based company should manage some U.S. port terminals.
Some lawmakers also objected to the impact foreign investment could have on labor unions and American jobs in general.
Continental supports foreign investment in U.S. airlines but says the administration proposal does not go far enough to ensure that a carrier is controlled by Americans, as the law requires.
Continental also believes that the administration's international aviation policy is one-sided; that European companies will eventually get broad access to domestic airlines and markets with no practical, reciprocal benefit for U.S. carriers. United says excessive restrictions on foreign investment limits the ability of U.S. airlines to tap global capital markets and compete internationally.

_____________
So, is the requirement that 75% of voting stock, 2/3rds of directors & officers, and the corporation president remain US controlled/citizen(s) still part of the deal? Or is that what they loosened up?

I'm pleased with my airlines' position on this deal. We want to compete, we want fair access to other markets (this does not get us good access to LHR), we're trying to run a clean operation. What is the deal?

Just wondering. Is there still a caveat in the legislation to protect domestic only operators from any non US control? (gotta protect those precious LCCs!)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

[Posting of Duane's Verbal Diarrhea Edited]

Rez:

1) Duane's testimony does not an effective response make.

2) Getting active? My point is ALPA's failure to adequately address any of the great challeges it has faced since 1978...to wit:

a) Deregulation-esp. the .gov picking winners and losers
b) Politicitization of the NTSB- esp the 73 Rudder Hardover investigation
c) Pension Reform (twice, late 80s and now)-
d) Small Jets- early 90s to today
e) Foreign Ownership- a threat for 30 years, now probably inevitable

ALPA has shown consistantly that the short term best interest of a protected group of pilots outweighs the best interest of the collective whole. This has had the effect of destroying the base from which ALPA derives its strength for barginning. Rez, ALPA is broken and probably won't be fixed. Especially as long a DW operates to save his pension and that of his friends and ignores the the long term trends.

I sat next to the senior counsel for the Transportation Committee for two weeks. What did he have to say about the remaining clout of ALPA vs. say, AOPA? Hint, if you like to fly, buy a Cirrus.

Ace-

Valid points...... no doubt.

What do you suggest? A paradigm shift? Revolution? I am all for it...

Except...

Ignorance, cynicism and apathy....


Someone is going to have to log off of FI and lead the charge. The problem is everyone is cowering in the fox hole saying "I ain't gonna do it...you DO IT!"

And when that one person finally gets the courage and stones to lead the way out of the foxhole, the cowering cowards better following...otherwise they can burn in hell.......

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: If we could install one of the CAL candidates into APLA officer positions it would be a good thing I think.

The pilots that have lasted to form the CAL pilot group have endured more crap through the years than any other. Although I would like to see most of them be able to retire soon, they are well suited to deal with harsh events.

 

[Saabslime]

This POSSIBLE change on the horizon does not negate the RLA. If foreign ownership comes in and tries to lower wages/work rules we simply say hell no. They won't just be able to replace us with cheaper labor for the same reasons no current management can..........COST. If this happens (and I seriously doubt it will in the bills current form) we need to get a little more creative when negotiating our contracts.

 

[dc8b75v8r]

Too little Too Late

The pilots of the US Airline industry should have drawn the concrete wall in the sand decades ago.

Even if the whole US airline industry pilots decided enmasse to strike tomorow:

A) PB would negate it

B) The new foriegn owners would like nothing else than to throw out the present cards and staff away with brand new hires that will work for s%$*t

You will see first year pay every year. After you pay them for the chance to work.

The rest of the world would like nothing more than to see us all living ten to a room and sh!t*ng in a hole in the floor.

This is absolutely the most pathetic event that could happen to a once proud industry.

 

[GogglesPisano]

It's all part of globalization. The top 5% benefit. The rest compete for the scraps.

 

[AceCrackshot]

What do you suggest? A paradigm shift? Revolution? I am all for it

1) Learn a foreign language

2) Vote with your feet. Love of flying is the least compelling reason to do this job. Anyone who believes differently is either a hopeless romantic, or an idiot, and is taking food from my kid's mouth either way. There is a reason why every guy I know save one or two is looking for a better career.

3) Lobby the FAA to change the FAR's to require every crewmember on a transport catagory aircraft to have an JAA level ATP (with a requirement of 2000-2500 hrs), a four year degree or demostrated equivalent, and very stringent Class 1 medical requirements. Existing ATPs under 60 would have 5 years to comply with the new requirements. If you can't pass 15 CLEP tests, 10 Aeronatical Reg tests, and get under 300 pounds in the next five years, see ya!

 

[Double Shot]

The pilots that have lasted to form the CAL pilot group have endured more crap through the years than any other. Although I would like to see most of them be able to retire soon, they are well suited to deal with harsh events.[/quote

OOHHHH Please...Most of the crap that yall endured you did to yourself..

 

[AceCrackshot]

The rest of the world would like nothing more than to see us all living ten to a room and sh!t*ng in a hole in the floor.

It's all part of globalization. The top 5% benefit. The rest compete for the scraps

Truer words never spoken. And our politicians and business leaders helping the whole way. And they'll call you "white trash" and look down their noses at you while they do it. It's not a Republican vs. Democrat thing, its a rich vs. poor thing, and our "leaders" will happily lynch the middle class in this country if it means they're still being invited to Prince Bandar's Aspen Summer Home.

 

[FDJ2]

ALPA's reply [crickets chirping]

Sounds more like the reply of far too many ALPA pilots who are sitting on the sidelines and not supporting ALPA-PAC.

 

[FDJ2]

Truer words never spoken. And our politicians and business leaders helping the whole way.

I'm sure you support ALPA-PAC every pay check.

 

[BigMotorToter]

I don't think the bar can be any lower, 1 year pay at CO is 30000/Y, have you looked at JB pay rate? Don't forget that the FO has to dump the Blue Juice between flight. Have you looked at CHQ 170 Rates? Mesa CRJ 900 Rates?

I can't wait bor LH, BA, KLM to by us it can only be better...

Don't forget no health care at CAL for first 6 months.

 

[Flopgut]

The pilots that have lasted to form the CAL pilot group have endured more crap through the years than any other. Although I would like to see most of them be able to retire soon, they are well suited to deal with harsh events.[/quote

OOHHHH Please...Most of the crap that yall endured you did to yourself..

Right. Lorenzo had little to do with any of it. He only got banned from ever working in the business again.

I'm sure your happy to be gone.

 

[Flopgut]

1) Learn a foreign language

2) Vote with your feet. Love of flying is the least compelling reason to do this job. Anyone who believes differently is either a hopeless romantic, or an idiot, and is taking food from my kid's mouth either way. There is a reason why every guy I know save one or two is looking for a better career.

3) Lobby the FAA to change the FAR's to require every crewmember on a transport catagory aircraft to have an JAA level ATP (with a requirement of 2000-2500 hrs), a four year degree or demostrated equivalent, and very stringent Class 1 medical requirements. Existing ATPs under 60 would have 5 years to comply with the new requirements. If you can't pass 15 CLEP tests, 10 Aeronatical Reg tests, and get under 300 pounds in the next five years, see ya!

That's sounds good. I can probably do some of that. While we are transforming ourselves, should we not consider seeking a stronger voice with a clearer message? This really isn't globalization and the world is not flat. US airlines are not getting fair access to LHR (and probably others) many of our JAA counterparts work half the time we do (has a lot to do with health) and their health insurance is socialized. You may not want socialized health care but that is going to be a headwind for US workers in a global marketplace.

My computer skills aren't leading me to the proposed legislation. Do we know if the US ownership covenants are going to stay in place?

 

[AceCrackshot]

I'm sure you support ALPA-PAC every pay check

BACK THE PAC!

After the "backing" that the DL ALPA brothers gave my father in 1978...or the "backing" that my DL brothers gave the industry over small jets and contract pilots...and the "backing" that ALPA gave to Piedmont and CCAir...and the backing ALPA national gave the TWA guys (again) over their merger...sorry FDJ2, I don't know how much more "backing" I can do.

Read the whole thread...ALPA's consistant inability to contend with any of the issues facing our profession is why we are here now. More money is akin to dropping Ted Kennedy at an open bar. Well meaning, but self-defeating.

And I'm not an ALPA member anymore. I got the "back" out.

 

[Flopgut]

How about going with the Teamsters? We would probably be better off if they had won in the first place.

 

[FDJ2]

Read the whole thread...ALPA's consistant inability to contend with any of the issues facing our profession is why we are here now.

Some how I knew you would find some way to blame others and not get involved in creating solutions. Whine away.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Not a whine and not a blame...simply an assessment of the current situation.

What's your next ad hominem, FDJ2? Or are you simply feeling guilty to discover that your career was built on the backs of the fellows your forebears (depending on your age) sold out. So asking us to sacrifice more is somewhat disingenuous, perhaps.

ALPA needs a strategy. AOPA strategy is working. ALPA, like it or not, is the flagbearer of our profession. Consistantly since 1978, they've taken the same shortterm view that management did, resulting in short term profit taking, with the result that the airline industry is mortgaged to the hilt. Guess who gets to pay?

What's needed is as was said. A concrete wall. If Dubai Ports World failed in the court of public opinion, than cabotage isn't invincible. Cabotage is likely, in my opinion, with the current crop of compliant mainline MECs and nonexistant ALPA leadership.

Show me leadership, and I'll show you the bucks, maybe. But I'm not taking any money of the college fund.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not a whine and not a blame...simply an assessment of the current situation.

What's your next ad hominem, FDJ2? Or are you simply feeling guilty to discover that your career was built on the backs of the fellows your forebears (depending on your age) sold out. So asking us to sacrifice more is somewhat disingenuous, perhaps.

ALPA needs a strategy. AOPA strategy is working. ALPA, like it or not, is the flagbearer of our profession. Consistantly since 1978, they've taken the same shortterm view that management did, resulting in short term profit taking, with the result that the airline industry is mortgaged to the hilt. Guess who gets to pay?

What's needed is as was said. A concrete wall. If Dubai Ports World failed in the court of public opinion, than cabotage isn't invincible. Cabotage is likely, in my opinion, with the current crop of compliant mainline MECs and nonexistant ALPA leadership.

Show me leadership, and I'll show you the bucks, maybe. But I'm not taking any money of the college fund.

AOPA is a political organization like ALPA with a different agenda. Just because they both represent in aviation doesn't mean they are comparable for your arguement.

You asses the situation well..... but fade out with solutions.... and pragmatic HOW.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I think Lou Dobbs is running a segment on this very subject tonight (Monday 06-12.)