? for USAF guys

[JPAtki]

There was a mistake on my medical, so when applying to OTS, I was selected for navigator. After seeing the flight surgeon, I now meet all the medical requirements for pilot. Problem is, I can't change my selection now.

My question is how do I make the jump from nav to pilot? I'll be leaving for OTS in a few weeks and have been told that my options are to try to get into pilot training as soon as I graduuate OTS or to go to nav training and try to graduate at the top of my class b/c sometimes the top nav school graduates are trained as pilots.

If I do get stuck as a nav, how much of an AF future do I have? I've heard that the nav postion is kinda of dead end.

Thanks for any info you can give,

Paul

 

[Draginass]

Nav is not necessarily a "dead end," but being a pilot is probably more advantagous. I would try contacting the commander of the selection board process (in MPC maybe?) and explain the situation. Maybe your OTS date can be delayed while you meet a pilot selection board. Then if you don't get selected for a pilot slot, you can go to your Nav slot.

Once on active duty as a nav, you can apply for pilot training, although not many are selected because of the medical requirements. From my experience, the nav's I knew could have easily been selected for pilot training, except that their eyesight disqualified them. The nav's that I knew in my pilot training class, litterally breezed through training . . . . expecially the F-4 GIBs. They had more aviation and mission experience and already flew better than most of the IPs that were training them.

 

[LimoDriver]

Paul - just my .02....

I went in the AF as a nav back in the late 70's, and I thought it was a dead end job, then. I only did it because they dangled an ROTC scholarship in front of me, if I would take a nav slot (they had no pilot scholarships at that time.) I was told the same thing - apply for UPT after UNT.

I started applying for UPT as soon as I got to my operational squadron - as did several other navs. After 3 years, I was finally selected on the last board for which I was eligible due to my age.

Bottom line - it worked out OK for me, except that I was way behind my peers in pilot experience and upgrades. (I was a Capt co-pilot flying with Lt aircraft commanders!) And, my 4 years (including schools) and 2500 hrs as a Nav is totally wasted time! Although it was fun, and a good experience, I have yet to find anybody who gives a crap about Nav time when applying for a pilot job!

Navs were treated as second class citizens in the AF back then, and I can only guess that has not changed. As a group, we got very little respect and a lower promotion rate. The AF is run by pilots! (Navs go the airplane in the "non-essential" bus!) I had decided that if I did not get into UPT, I would not stay in the AF.

If your goal is to be an airline or corporate pilot, think long and hard about taking the Nav slot. If you don't get selected for UPT, your time there will be wasted. If your goal is to be a career Air Force officer, and you don't go to UPT, your career options as a nav are somewhat limited. In my experience, and unless things have changed, you are better off non-rated than as a navigator in the AF. If you just want to fly and have the time of your life, and don't care that you are not the pilot, then go for it!

Then, of course, my experience is somewhat dated - things may have changed dramatically in the AF, but I doubt it. Any current AF navs out there wish to weigh in??

 

[JPAtki]

As far as nav hours are concerned, if the nav has flight controls (as in the Strike Eagle) is this time considered pic or can it otherwise be put toward pil time?

Do these navs have a better chance of getting picked up for UPT?

It looks like I'm going in as a nav. I did join the AF because I want to fly so I'm glad to be selected. I do not "plan" on using the AF to work up flight time so I can jump into a civ pilot job after my service.

I guess what I'm looking for here is what can I do from the beginning to better my chances at UPT?

I do here a lot about the negative aspects of being a nav and the job is being increasingly computerized. I do not want to work for a few years in a job that not only isn't respected but is soon to be outdated.

-Paul

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Getting Ahead in the Air Force

There is only one way to get ahead in the Air Force.

Work hard and build good relations with your subordinates, peers, and supervisors.

There are a thousand things that are stupid and don't make sense, but you can't change most of them, and if you dwell on it too much you won't go very far.

As a LT find the good NCO's in your unit and earn their respect. Try to get on your commander's good side with out being a "brown noser". And keep in contact with everyone you meet. Some day you will get an awesome "good deal" because some one you once knew is now in charge of assignments or whatever.

So work hard, don't sweat the small stuff, and don't worry (or complain) about things no one can change.

I was in for ten years and worked hard, but pissed off alot of my superiors cause they were careerist bone-heads. And guess what? They are still bone heads who made it to General, and I got out as a disgruntled Capt. So what good did it do me?

Atleast I am set for the airline industry.

As far as being a Navigator. On the KC-135 they were pretty useless with the gps and the glass cockpits for 95% of the missions. But when you were low-level at night below the ridge line over Yuki-stahn doing a special ops air refueling, they were very useful. Problem was most of the Nav's had been told they were useless for the past 3-4 years, so most of them weren't that good at Navigating. So try to be the best Nav you can be and don't sweat it when everyone from the pilots to your own Nav instructors tell you it isn't important for you to learn how to Navigate.

Good luck.

 

[talondriver]

Paul-
Be the best nav you can be. Getting Distinguished Graduate in the training you'll be going through can't hurt, but it's not necessary. Importantly, make friends and don't burn bridges when you get to your operational unit.
You're question about logging "nav/WSO" time towards the airlines? Most (if not all) the airline applications will tell you NOT to put nav/WSO time. You'll need to talk to some strike eagle WSOs, but I don't think they're logging "pilot" time when they hold the stick (sts).
Good Luck
p.s. I was a BUFF nav for 2.5 years before going on to UPT.

 

[AlbieF15]

Ok...I'm going to break the trend here and recommend you DO NOT GO IN as a Nav if you are pilot qual'd.

The AF needs pilots. It also needs navs. You have no committment to go to OTS--no AFRTOTC scholarship or AFA committment over your head. You can look your recruiter in the eye--tell him VERY politely that since you can now chase your dream of flying as pilot, you'd like to reapply for a pilot slot. If he says no...then investigate other options like the Navy and Marines (see Jstock for info on Marine recruiters).

Your situation is not unlike the common question of "well...if we couldn't get you a PILOT slot would you take a NAV slot?" that is often asked in AFROTC. In my opinion, the best answer to this question is a very polite but very firm response of something like...."sir...it has been my lifelong dream to be an Air Force pilot. However, if that slot is not available right now, I think I will delay my decision and investigate some other options. I want to serve my country as a pilot in our nation's Air Force, but if I cannot serve the Air Force I will continue to investigate other avenues to serve, perhaps looking into other branches of service".

I do suggest you look into Navy/Marine/Coast Guard and (gulp) even Army options. You don't have to sign up--just see what is available so your are well informed.

Now...you have to play guts ball...but you will win. Once your OTS recuiter sees YOU WILL NOT take a nav slot, he will likely either try to get you in as a pilot now, or tell you to reapply for the next cycle of slots. Even if you delay going into OTS a year, then reapply and get your pilot slot, you've only lost one year of time. If you go to Nav school--you will lose 2-3 years at a minimum, and as other posters indicated you will always behind your guys in your rank as far as quals and hours, etc.

For you Navs and former Navs out there--this isn't a slam. I have had the pleasure of both learning from, flying with, and supervising F15 guys that were former backseaters in various aircraft. They have all been great officers and great pilots. However, every one of them will tell you the Nav-Pilot transition is doable, but again--you are competing against every other healthy naviagator out there. You have a higher percentage chance of getting to UPT if you avoid UNT and try to go directly into the AF as a pilot.

Guys I would recommend to go to UNT are guys who had to have a scholarship to get through school, or guys who don't meet pilot quals due to vision or other health issues. In that case, many times there are waivers for "good navs" and those guys eventually end up at UPT. However--for a healthy, motivated, young man without financial obligations to the service--I'd recommend you hang tough and reapply for that pilot slot.

A former nav then F16 driver and furloughed Delta pilot started a website called newhire.com and furloughedpilot.com. Look up the site and send him an email--he was an F111 WSO then went to UPT. You can also send me a PM if you want to exchange emails or phone numbers and we can chat. I know at least 3 former WSO/NAVS that now fly Eagles at Tyndall, and I can give you their info if you want a better opinion from someone who's been there/done that.

Good luck to you!

 

[JimNtexas]

Ok...I'm going to break the trend here and recommend you DO NOT GO IN as a Nav if you are pilot qual'd.
....

As a retired Nav, I agree 100% with Albie. If you want to be a pilot, are not age-critical, and are physically qualified for UPT, then do not accept a nav training OTS assignment.

It's easy to fill pilot traiing slots, and hard to fill nav training slots. The recruiters are salespeople who are evaluated on their ablity to meet quotas. There is a zero quota for pilots, and a sizeable quota for navs. Be polite, but inisist on pilot training.

Jim

 

[talondriver]

Paul-
Don't get me wrong. If you have the option, right now, to go to pilot training, by all means...GO. BUT, if you want to go in the AF and being a nav is your only (flying) option, be a world class nav.

Back in the ol' days, they would give DGs out of ROTC field training the option to go to UPT (if they didn't have a slot) and if they were medically qualified. You might want to check into that prior to OTS.

 

[Skyrunner]

Tough decision

JPAtki,

You have jumped your first hurdle by being physically qualified for UPT. Believe it or not, that is a big step. You have made yourself more competitive for a UPT slot in any avenue you select.

Have you tried the reserves or guard? I would suggest trying this before you go to UNT.

In my past experiences, the navs I know that wanted a UPT slot had to compete with some really qualified people. A few even got rejected because they upgraded to instructor nav or stan/eval nav and were way to valuable to go to UPT. They are now trying to go to UPT through to guard/reserves.

I wish you luck amigo and wish I could be more help. If you want info on the guard or reserves and how they select UPT candidates, just PM me.

Take care and fly safe,

SR

 

[thebluto]

another 2 pennies

I'm not in the Air Force, but I did end up doing what you're describing in the Navy. I agree with the posts above about NOT going in if you don't have the pilot slot.

My career has been an uphill battle with a lot of disappointments (the Navy cancelled the transition program during my flight training as a knee-jerk reaction to an F-14 accident of a transition guy; and made us all fly something multi-piloted, when a lot of us started out in carrier based jets).

I didn't have the option of turning the Navy down when I got commissioned as I was on ROTC scholarship. Even if they make you wait and you have to mow lawns and live in your parents basement for awhile, you're much better off being a pilot to start than trying to transition.

 

[Dick]

Just some advice from someone currently in the career field.

If you don't have any desire to go to the airlines or be someones on-call byatch in the business community, the Navigator career field isn't that bad. Granted, you aren't a "pilot" in case you have that inferiority complex.

As far as promotions, these people are full of crap. If you want to be a General than you'll have to do more than be a Pilot, there is a lot of "under the desk" stuff going on there. I know plenty of Navigator type people as high as O-6.

If you have a childhood dream of being a pilot, by all means, turn down the Nav slot. BUT, beware, if you turn down one flying slot, you are usually done for ALL flying programs in the Air Force.

The selection rate for Rated guys to UPT is VERY, VERY high. So, if that is all you can get, go for it, do your best and after 2-3 years in the business go to UPT with a few hundred hours and some combat time under your belt. You'll be a better pilot after those experiences. Cheers, good luck!!

 

[thebluto]

Dick is saying things I probably would have said 9 years ago when I was in his shoes. I can’t agree now. Sorry. I know it’s not a fun concept, but being a pilot is better than being a back-seater.

I was told when my orders were changed from student Naval Aviator to student Naval Flight Officer back in 1989 that NFO wasn’t an "also-ran" community. I wish that were true.

Go to any Staff in the Air Force and look around at who’s doing most of the e-mails, phone calls, paperwork, etc. and it’s the ABMs, EWOs, NAVs, WSOs, etc. I saw it first hand last summer in PSAB. There weren’t a whole lot of pilots flying desks, they were either out flying missions or still had their Airline jobs and just weren’t in anymore.

If you want to be a back-seater, by all means, go for it. Serve your country proudly. It is an honorable profession. I really enjoyed my time as an EA-6B ECMO. It was a thrill-ride I’ll always have fantastic memories about. But, I wouldn’t go back. I’m more satisfied with my career as a pilot, even though it’s been a bumpy road.

Here’s the bottom line. I don’t think JPataki would have posted his thread unless he wanted to be a pilot. I’ve met a lot of back-seaters who wished they were pilots. But, I’ve never met a pilot who wished he was a back-seater.

If the opportunity exists to get the pilot slot without having to be a NAV first, do it. Believe me, it’s much better to start out as a pilot than do the transition. I’ve lived it. It was painful.

 

[talondriver]

Maybe I'm way "old school" but I started my career as a nav because I wanted to serve. Ok...enough "patooees". I didn't have the 20/20 vision to compete for a pilot slot in ROTC but that didn't stop me from wanting to join the military. Remember, there is more to the Air Force than being a pilot.
Granted, there are benefits to being a pilot but that doesn't mean the grass is always greener on this side. I thoroughly enjoyed my time as a nav. Maybe that helped me get my pilot slot.
I understand people have that childhood dream of becoming a pilot. If that's the case, what's stopping anyone from paying for their license to fly? I know of a number of navs who got as far as an ATP and even airline jobs by paying for their own flying.
If the opportunity is there to become military pilot, take it. Don't listen to a recruiter. I know a number of people burned by their advice. Be smart about who you ask and who says "no" to you.
Again, I may be old school and I'm not out to "dis" anyone...but I'm getting the impression that we're steering young JPATki towards a "me first" attitude at the beginnings of his military calling.

Someone who cares

 

[thebluto]

I mean no ill will and I definitely don't want to steer someone from a life of service to the US of A. I only want to provide advice for anyone who might be embarking on waters I've already navigated. If the chance exists for someone to become a pilot to start out before pursuing the Back-seater to pilot transition, I would steer clear of trying to be a Nav/NFO before a pilot. It's WAY easier to start out as a pilot and stay there.

It's something I feel strongly about because I and many others have been burned. Waiting 6 months to a year after college for a pilot slot is much less painful than going through flight school twice and living with a stigma that many place on transition guys (maybe more prevelant in the Navy than Air Force).

I don't mean to provide flamebait. I just want to give advice that may cause a little less pain to someone who may follow the same path I've travelled. I wish this website existed in the 80s, when I had to learn all these lessons the hard way.

 

[talondriver]

The selection rate for Rated guys to UPT is VERY, VERY high. So, if that is all you can get, go for it, do your best and after 2-3 years in the business go to UPT with a few hundred hours and some combat time under your belt. You'll be a better pilot after those experiences. [/B]

Prior Navs are fortunate to have that experience...but unfortunately, more is expected of them. I've seen my share of sh*t hot navs (and I'm not just talking WSO types) go through '38s, but I've also seen my share of navs (including WSO types) who should have stayed in the backseat.

 

[Dick]

I agree 100% with you. I fly everyday with prior WSO's and Pilots who should have probably been WSO's. Congratulations to all of you who made the transition. I honestly have no desire to commit to 10 years to the Air Force and I'd rather be in the back seat of an Eagle than drive a Tanker. Just my opinion!!

Just remember that with different TDY's and school's, flying will probably only be 12-13 years of your career, the rest of the time you'll actually have to be an officer.

Cheers!

 

[JPAtki]

I sure do appreciate all the advice and the different perspectives here. I wish I had found this message board at the start of the process and not the end. I'm still fighting for a pilot slot but I may have to stick it out as a nav for a few years. I gues I could use the back seat time to work on my masters or for an IFR rating... Just to be clear, my goal here is to be a military aviator, not to work up time to get a good job after my mil career; I love to fly and I figure the military is the most exciting, rewarding, and best way to be, well, the best. Maybe that's just wishfull thinking but thats my attitude going in.

-JPAtki

P.S.- If you every go through MEPS at Ft Jackson, get a 2nd opinion.

 

[mackinhoes]

WAIT

Don't go into a nav slot.

Check out all guard options. Networking is very important.

Your goal (now) is to be a military aviator and not necessarily an airline pilot. Your goals may change after a couple of years in the service and then you've limited yourself. Actually your career goals WILL change. It happens to everyone as they get older. You need to keep all options open to you, including airlines. The economy will come back and hiring will resume.

When you are 22, 23 years old, a year seems like forever. But it would be well worth the wait if you can get a pilot slot or in thru the guard.

 

[HPaul3]

Wait it out, JPAtki!

I honestly have no desire to commit to 10 years to the Air Force and I'd rather be in the back seat of an Eagle than drive a Tanker.

Just remember that with different TDY's and school's, flying will probably only be 12-13 years of your career, the rest of the time you'll actually have to be an officer.

Cheers!

Dick,

What about being a nav in the Tanker? There are still a lot of non-PACER CRAG tankers out there that have navs in them. Remember, only the top of the stack gets the back seat of an Eagle. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but be realistic.

Truth is, the nav is a dying profession, sadly. Just like the flight engineer. Yes, it's a profession with a proud and storied history, but it is now all but irrelevant. You're hearing from former navs on this thread who had the good fortune to ply their trade during a time when the nav was more relevant and much more common, and even they recognize the pitfalls inherent in the choice they made. Throughout my career I've met many outstanding people who chose to be navigators, and the vast majority of them have gone on to other means of service, including pilot training. And to a person, they all have regrets about it. Mostly that their time as a nav cost them several precious years and delayed attaining their final goals, whether that be a pilot or whatever.

If you are medically qualified, really want to be a pilot, and can reach pilot training within the next two or three years, absolutely do not go to navigator school. Wait it out. If you are excited about navigator school and can see that as your ultimate goal, then by all means go for it. Just make your choice and be happy about it.

Dick again,

By the way, please don't intimate that pilots do not spend their time being officers. I've had many, many additional duties throughout my career that had all but nothing to do with being a pilot. Every commander I've ever had was a pilot, with the exception of my latest 06 operations group commander. Good for him, he's a great guy. What I've seen a lot more of is former navs trying to catch up on their pilot skills and officer duties because they got a late start to pilot training and now must spend additional time becoming comfortable with the airplane and the lifestyle.