? for USAF guys

[JPAtki]

There was a mistake on my medical, so when applying to OTS, I was selected for navigator. After seeing the flight surgeon, I now meet all the medical requirements for pilot. Problem is, I can't change my selection now.

My question is how do I make the jump from nav to pilot? I'll be leaving for OTS in a few weeks and have been told that my options are to try to get into pilot training as soon as I graduuate OTS or to go to nav training and try to graduate at the top of my class b/c sometimes the top nav school graduates are trained as pilots.

If I do get stuck as a nav, how much of an AF future do I have? I've heard that the nav postion is kinda of dead end.

Thanks for any info you can give,

Paul

 

[Draginass]

Nav is not necessarily a "dead end," but being a pilot is probably more advantagous. I would try contacting the commander of the selection board process (in MPC maybe?) and explain the situation. Maybe your OTS date can be delayed while you meet a pilot selection board. Then if you don't get selected for a pilot slot, you can go to your Nav slot.

Once on active duty as a nav, you can apply for pilot training, although not many are selected because of the medical requirements. From my experience, the nav's I knew could have easily been selected for pilot training, except that their eyesight disqualified them. The nav's that I knew in my pilot training class, litterally breezed through training . . . . expecially the F-4 GIBs. They had more aviation and mission experience and already flew better than most of the IPs that were training them.

 

[LimoDriver]

Paul - just my .02....

I went in the AF as a nav back in the late 70's, and I thought it was a dead end job, then. I only did it because they dangled an ROTC scholarship in front of me, if I would take a nav slot (they had no pilot scholarships at that time.) I was told the same thing - apply for UPT after UNT.

I started applying for UPT as soon as I got to my operational squadron - as did several other navs. After 3 years, I was finally selected on the last board for which I was eligible due to my age.

Bottom line - it worked out OK for me, except that I was way behind my peers in pilot experience and upgrades. (I was a Capt co-pilot flying with Lt aircraft commanders!) And, my 4 years (including schools) and 2500 hrs as a Nav is totally wasted time! Although it was fun, and a good experience, I have yet to find anybody who gives a crap about Nav time when applying for a pilot job!

Navs were treated as second class citizens in the AF back then, and I can only guess that has not changed. As a group, we got very little respect and a lower promotion rate. The AF is run by pilots! (Navs go the airplane in the "non-essential" bus!) I had decided that if I did not get into UPT, I would not stay in the AF.

If your goal is to be an airline or corporate pilot, think long and hard about taking the Nav slot. If you don't get selected for UPT, your time there will be wasted. If your goal is to be a career Air Force officer, and you don't go to UPT, your career options as a nav are somewhat limited. In my experience, and unless things have changed, you are better off non-rated than as a navigator in the AF. If you just want to fly and have the time of your life, and don't care that you are not the pilot, then go for it!

Then, of course, my experience is somewhat dated - things may have changed dramatically in the AF, but I doubt it. Any current AF navs out there wish to weigh in??

 

[JPAtki]

As far as nav hours are concerned, if the nav has flight controls (as in the Strike Eagle) is this time considered pic or can it otherwise be put toward pil time?

Do these navs have a better chance of getting picked up for UPT?

It looks like I'm going in as a nav. I did join the AF because I want to fly so I'm glad to be selected. I do not "plan" on using the AF to work up flight time so I can jump into a civ pilot job after my service.

I guess what I'm looking for here is what can I do from the beginning to better my chances at UPT?

I do here a lot about the negative aspects of being a nav and the job is being increasingly computerized. I do not want to work for a few years in a job that not only isn't respected but is soon to be outdated.

-Paul

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Getting Ahead in the Air Force

There is only one way to get ahead in the Air Force.

Work hard and build good relations with your subordinates, peers, and supervisors.

There are a thousand things that are stupid and don't make sense, but you can't change most of them, and if you dwell on it too much you won't go very far.

As a LT find the good NCO's in your unit and earn their respect. Try to get on your commander's good side with out being a "brown noser". And keep in contact with everyone you meet. Some day you will get an awesome "good deal" because some one you once knew is now in charge of assignments or whatever.

So work hard, don't sweat the small stuff, and don't worry (or complain) about things no one can change.

I was in for ten years and worked hard, but pissed off alot of my superiors cause they were careerist bone-heads. And guess what? They are still bone heads who made it to General, and I got out as a disgruntled Capt. So what good did it do me?

Atleast I am set for the airline industry.

As far as being a Navigator. On the KC-135 they were pretty useless with the gps and the glass cockpits for 95% of the missions. But when you were low-level at night below the ridge line over Yuki-stahn doing a special ops air refueling, they were very useful. Problem was most of the Nav's had been told they were useless for the past 3-4 years, so most of them weren't that good at Navigating. So try to be the best Nav you can be and don't sweat it when everyone from the pilots to your own Nav instructors tell you it isn't important for you to learn how to Navigate.

Good luck.

 

[talondriver]

Paul-
Be the best nav you can be. Getting Distinguished Graduate in the training you'll be going through can't hurt, but it's not necessary. Importantly, make friends and don't burn bridges when you get to your operational unit.
You're question about logging "nav/WSO" time towards the airlines? Most (if not all) the airline applications will tell you NOT to put nav/WSO time. You'll need to talk to some strike eagle WSOs, but I don't think they're logging "pilot" time when they hold the stick (sts).
Good Luck
p.s. I was a BUFF nav for 2.5 years before going on to UPT.

 

[AlbieF15]

Ok...I'm going to break the trend here and recommend you DO NOT GO IN as a Nav if you are pilot qual'd.

The AF needs pilots. It also needs navs. You have no committment to go to OTS--no AFRTOTC scholarship or AFA committment over your head. You can look your recruiter in the eye--tell him VERY politely that since you can now chase your dream of flying as pilot, you'd like to reapply for a pilot slot. If he says no...then investigate other options like the Navy and Marines (see Jstock for info on Marine recruiters).

Your situation is not unlike the common question of "well...if we couldn't get you a PILOT slot would you take a NAV slot?" that is often asked in AFROTC. In my opinion, the best answer to this question is a very polite but very firm response of something like...."sir...it has been my lifelong dream to be an Air Force pilot. However, if that slot is not available right now, I think I will delay my decision and investigate some other options. I want to serve my country as a pilot in our nation's Air Force, but if I cannot serve the Air Force I will continue to investigate other avenues to serve, perhaps looking into other branches of service".

I do suggest you look into Navy/Marine/Coast Guard and (gulp) even Army options. You don't have to sign up--just see what is available so your are well informed.

Now...you have to play guts ball...but you will win. Once your OTS recuiter sees YOU WILL NOT take a nav slot, he will likely either try to get you in as a pilot now, or tell you to reapply for the next cycle of slots. Even if you delay going into OTS a year, then reapply and get your pilot slot, you've only lost one year of time. If you go to Nav school--you will lose 2-3 years at a minimum, and as other posters indicated you will always behind your guys in your rank as far as quals and hours, etc.

For you Navs and former Navs out there--this isn't a slam. I have had the pleasure of both learning from, flying with, and supervising F15 guys that were former backseaters in various aircraft. They have all been great officers and great pilots. However, every one of them will tell you the Nav-Pilot transition is doable, but again--you are competing against every other healthy naviagator out there. You have a higher percentage chance of getting to UPT if you avoid UNT and try to go directly into the AF as a pilot.

Guys I would recommend to go to UNT are guys who had to have a scholarship to get through school, or guys who don't meet pilot quals due to vision or other health issues. In that case, many times there are waivers for "good navs" and those guys eventually end up at UPT. However--for a healthy, motivated, young man without financial obligations to the service--I'd recommend you hang tough and reapply for that pilot slot.

A former nav then F16 driver and furloughed Delta pilot started a website called newhire.com and furloughedpilot.com. Look up the site and send him an email--he was an F111 WSO then went to UPT. You can also send me a PM if you want to exchange emails or phone numbers and we can chat. I know at least 3 former WSO/NAVS that now fly Eagles at Tyndall, and I can give you their info if you want a better opinion from someone who's been there/done that.

Good luck to you!

 

[JimNtexas]

Ok...I'm going to break the trend here and recommend you DO NOT GO IN as a Nav if you are pilot qual'd.
....

As a retired Nav, I agree 100% with Albie. If you want to be a pilot, are not age-critical, and are physically qualified for UPT, then do not accept a nav training OTS assignment.

It's easy to fill pilot traiing slots, and hard to fill nav training slots. The recruiters are salespeople who are evaluated on their ablity to meet quotas. There is a zero quota for pilots, and a sizeable quota for navs. Be polite, but inisist on pilot training.

Jim

 

[talondriver]

Paul-
Don't get me wrong. If you have the option, right now, to go to pilot training, by all means...GO. BUT, if you want to go in the AF and being a nav is your only (flying) option, be a world class nav.

Back in the ol' days, they would give DGs out of ROTC field training the option to go to UPT (if they didn't have a slot) and if they were medically qualified. You might want to check into that prior to OTS.

 

[Skyrunner]

Tough decision

JPAtki,

You have jumped your first hurdle by being physically qualified for UPT. Believe it or not, that is a big step. You have made yourself more competitive for a UPT slot in any avenue you select.

Have you tried the reserves or guard? I would suggest trying this before you go to UNT.

In my past experiences, the navs I know that wanted a UPT slot had to compete with some really qualified people. A few even got rejected because they upgraded to instructor nav or stan/eval nav and were way to valuable to go to UPT. They are now trying to go to UPT through to guard/reserves.

I wish you luck amigo and wish I could be more help. If you want info on the guard or reserves and how they select UPT candidates, just PM me.

Take care and fly safe,

SR