? for USAF guys

[thebluto]

another 2 pennies

I'm not in the Air Force, but I did end up doing what you're describing in the Navy. I agree with the posts above about NOT going in if you don't have the pilot slot.

My career has been an uphill battle with a lot of disappointments (the Navy cancelled the transition program during my flight training as a knee-jerk reaction to an F-14 accident of a transition guy; and made us all fly something multi-piloted, when a lot of us started out in carrier based jets).

I didn't have the option of turning the Navy down when I got commissioned as I was on ROTC scholarship. Even if they make you wait and you have to mow lawns and live in your parents basement for awhile, you're much better off being a pilot to start than trying to transition.

 

[Dick]

Just some advice from someone currently in the career field.

If you don't have any desire to go to the airlines or be someones on-call byatch in the business community, the Navigator career field isn't that bad. Granted, you aren't a "pilot" in case you have that inferiority complex.

As far as promotions, these people are full of crap. If you want to be a General than you'll have to do more than be a Pilot, there is a lot of "under the desk" stuff going on there. I know plenty of Navigator type people as high as O-6.

If you have a childhood dream of being a pilot, by all means, turn down the Nav slot. BUT, beware, if you turn down one flying slot, you are usually done for ALL flying programs in the Air Force.

The selection rate for Rated guys to UPT is VERY, VERY high. So, if that is all you can get, go for it, do your best and after 2-3 years in the business go to UPT with a few hundred hours and some combat time under your belt. You'll be a better pilot after those experiences. Cheers, good luck!!

 

[thebluto]

Dick is saying things I probably would have said 9 years ago when I was in his shoes. I can’t agree now. Sorry. I know it’s not a fun concept, but being a pilot is better than being a back-seater.

I was told when my orders were changed from student Naval Aviator to student Naval Flight Officer back in 1989 that NFO wasn’t an "also-ran" community. I wish that were true.

Go to any Staff in the Air Force and look around at who’s doing most of the e-mails, phone calls, paperwork, etc. and it’s the ABMs, EWOs, NAVs, WSOs, etc. I saw it first hand last summer in PSAB. There weren’t a whole lot of pilots flying desks, they were either out flying missions or still had their Airline jobs and just weren’t in anymore.

If you want to be a back-seater, by all means, go for it. Serve your country proudly. It is an honorable profession. I really enjoyed my time as an EA-6B ECMO. It was a thrill-ride I’ll always have fantastic memories about. But, I wouldn’t go back. I’m more satisfied with my career as a pilot, even though it’s been a bumpy road.

Here’s the bottom line. I don’t think JPataki would have posted his thread unless he wanted to be a pilot. I’ve met a lot of back-seaters who wished they were pilots. But, I’ve never met a pilot who wished he was a back-seater.

If the opportunity exists to get the pilot slot without having to be a NAV first, do it. Believe me, it’s much better to start out as a pilot than do the transition. I’ve lived it. It was painful.

 

[talondriver]

Maybe I'm way "old school" but I started my career as a nav because I wanted to serve. Ok...enough "patooees". I didn't have the 20/20 vision to compete for a pilot slot in ROTC but that didn't stop me from wanting to join the military. Remember, there is more to the Air Force than being a pilot.
Granted, there are benefits to being a pilot but that doesn't mean the grass is always greener on this side. I thoroughly enjoyed my time as a nav. Maybe that helped me get my pilot slot.
I understand people have that childhood dream of becoming a pilot. If that's the case, what's stopping anyone from paying for their license to fly? I know of a number of navs who got as far as an ATP and even airline jobs by paying for their own flying.
If the opportunity is there to become military pilot, take it. Don't listen to a recruiter. I know a number of people burned by their advice. Be smart about who you ask and who says "no" to you.
Again, I may be old school and I'm not out to "dis" anyone...but I'm getting the impression that we're steering young JPATki towards a "me first" attitude at the beginnings of his military calling.

Someone who cares

 

[thebluto]

I mean no ill will and I definitely don't want to steer someone from a life of service to the US of A. I only want to provide advice for anyone who might be embarking on waters I've already navigated. If the chance exists for someone to become a pilot to start out before pursuing the Back-seater to pilot transition, I would steer clear of trying to be a Nav/NFO before a pilot. It's WAY easier to start out as a pilot and stay there.

It's something I feel strongly about because I and many others have been burned. Waiting 6 months to a year after college for a pilot slot is much less painful than going through flight school twice and living with a stigma that many place on transition guys (maybe more prevelant in the Navy than Air Force).

I don't mean to provide flamebait. I just want to give advice that may cause a little less pain to someone who may follow the same path I've travelled. I wish this website existed in the 80s, when I had to learn all these lessons the hard way.

 

[talondriver]

The selection rate for Rated guys to UPT is VERY, VERY high. So, if that is all you can get, go for it, do your best and after 2-3 years in the business go to UPT with a few hundred hours and some combat time under your belt. You'll be a better pilot after those experiences. [/B]

Prior Navs are fortunate to have that experience...but unfortunately, more is expected of them. I've seen my share of sh*t hot navs (and I'm not just talking WSO types) go through '38s, but I've also seen my share of navs (including WSO types) who should have stayed in the backseat.

 

[Dick]

I agree 100% with you. I fly everyday with prior WSO's and Pilots who should have probably been WSO's. Congratulations to all of you who made the transition. I honestly have no desire to commit to 10 years to the Air Force and I'd rather be in the back seat of an Eagle than drive a Tanker. Just my opinion!!

Just remember that with different TDY's and school's, flying will probably only be 12-13 years of your career, the rest of the time you'll actually have to be an officer.

Cheers!

 

[JPAtki]

I sure do appreciate all the advice and the different perspectives here. I wish I had found this message board at the start of the process and not the end. I'm still fighting for a pilot slot but I may have to stick it out as a nav for a few years. I gues I could use the back seat time to work on my masters or for an IFR rating... Just to be clear, my goal here is to be a military aviator, not to work up time to get a good job after my mil career; I love to fly and I figure the military is the most exciting, rewarding, and best way to be, well, the best. Maybe that's just wishfull thinking but thats my attitude going in.

-JPAtki

P.S.- If you every go through MEPS at Ft Jackson, get a 2nd opinion.

 

[mackinhoes]

WAIT

Don't go into a nav slot.

Check out all guard options. Networking is very important.

Your goal (now) is to be a military aviator and not necessarily an airline pilot. Your goals may change after a couple of years in the service and then you've limited yourself. Actually your career goals WILL change. It happens to everyone as they get older. You need to keep all options open to you, including airlines. The economy will come back and hiring will resume.

When you are 22, 23 years old, a year seems like forever. But it would be well worth the wait if you can get a pilot slot or in thru the guard.

 

[HPaul3]

Wait it out, JPAtki!

I honestly have no desire to commit to 10 years to the Air Force and I'd rather be in the back seat of an Eagle than drive a Tanker.

Just remember that with different TDY's and school's, flying will probably only be 12-13 years of your career, the rest of the time you'll actually have to be an officer.

Cheers!

Dick,

What about being a nav in the Tanker? There are still a lot of non-PACER CRAG tankers out there that have navs in them. Remember, only the top of the stack gets the back seat of an Eagle. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but be realistic.

Truth is, the nav is a dying profession, sadly. Just like the flight engineer. Yes, it's a profession with a proud and storied history, but it is now all but irrelevant. You're hearing from former navs on this thread who had the good fortune to ply their trade during a time when the nav was more relevant and much more common, and even they recognize the pitfalls inherent in the choice they made. Throughout my career I've met many outstanding people who chose to be navigators, and the vast majority of them have gone on to other means of service, including pilot training. And to a person, they all have regrets about it. Mostly that their time as a nav cost them several precious years and delayed attaining their final goals, whether that be a pilot or whatever.

If you are medically qualified, really want to be a pilot, and can reach pilot training within the next two or three years, absolutely do not go to navigator school. Wait it out. If you are excited about navigator school and can see that as your ultimate goal, then by all means go for it. Just make your choice and be happy about it.

Dick again,

By the way, please don't intimate that pilots do not spend their time being officers. I've had many, many additional duties throughout my career that had all but nothing to do with being a pilot. Every commander I've ever had was a pilot, with the exception of my latest 06 operations group commander. Good for him, he's a great guy. What I've seen a lot more of is former navs trying to catch up on their pilot skills and officer duties because they got a late start to pilot training and now must spend additional time becoming comfortable with the airplane and the lifestyle.