For those who defended the pilot of the Carlsbad C560 Crash.........

[LRvsH25B]

read P.62 of this months (june 2006) Business and Commercial Aviation.

It's an excellent article on cowboy pilots. The data was there shortly after this accident that told anyone who read it that this guy had no business flying an aircraft (200+ knots 400 feet off the ground on short final, 300+ knots below 5) and still some talked about what an excellent pilot this guy was and how great his skills and judgement were. Disgusting. This type of person runs his mouth telling and showing everyone how "good he is", so this type of poor flying and judgement was no surprise to those who knew him. For those that defended him, not only should you be ashamed, but your own judgemet should be called into question. Just because you know a guy or know him to be a nice guy does not mean he is a good pilot or, in this case, be responsible for the lives of others, as the situation he got himself into exceeded what little skill he had, killing all those innicent people who didn't know they had a hack for a pilot.

Moderator reviewed.

Please, read the article.

 

[AerroMatt]

300+ Knots below 5... do you mean 5000ft? It does seem a bit much. That aside, the 200+ Kts at 400AGL on short final is NOT what I would call a "Stabilized Approach".

 

[doublepsych]

also

I also read somewhere in that same issue that the pilot in the Carlsbad accident had been previously seen doing some combination of busting mins, scud running, and rolling the dice going in to Sun Valley or some place...kinda seems like stuff like that drags down the safety factor of corp ops in general.

There are a lot of safe pilots in corporate, but I know a couple of cowboys (everybody probably knows at least a couple), and nothing I might hear about these guys would really surprise me. In fact, I could tell some stories that are factual, that would be more insane than anything a fiction writer could make up...

 

[LRvsH25B]

300+ Knots below 5... do you mean 5000ft? It does seem a bit much. That aside, the 200+ Kts at 400AGL on short final is NOT what I would call a "Stabilized Approach".

Hey Matt, when someone says 250 below 10, do you correct them and say "Don't you mean 10,000"? Don't be an idiot. Weren't you one of those over there defending this guy saying "Let's wait on the NTSB report"? Any professional on here knew that when I wrote 5 that I meant 5000 ft. Guess you are still learning. Pleases keep your thoughts to yourself unless you want to confirm for the folks that you are an amature, most of your posts are amature in nature, and you have no idea about what's going on out here in Corporate aviation. Please, go back to truckin', Billy Joe Bob.

 

[Snakum]

Pleases keep your thoughts to yourself unless you want to confirm for the folks that you are an amature, most of your posts are amature

In English please? :erm:

(just trying to keep up )


I often read about 'cowboy' pilots here, in fact, I see the term so often I fully expected to see one in real life pretty quickly after beginning to tag along on larger piston and turbine twins. But I have yet to actually fly with one, despite the fact that I'm riding with small corporate operators with usually only one Baron, or one King Air, or C441 and the Captains are usually long-timers in the local corp/charter scene and most have flown with NASCAR teams (rumoured to be FULL of cowboys). But I haven't seen a single one. In fact, the very first thing I learned was the concept of BFL and how to calculate BFL for a Baron and was told that if I accept a runway that doesn't fully meet book requirements for conditions plus 10% ("book numbers are for a NEW airplane, son") I was going to die one day and take passengers with me. Absolutely every captain I have flown with and learned from has been a consumate professional in every way. One, if I heard correctly, actually gave up a good job because he refused to make a flight with no fuel stop (fly a C90 overloaded so they could make St. Louis without stopping).

So I'm wondering ... how prevalent is the 'cowboy attitude' among Pt 91 departments? Is it a situation of "one in every department" or is it much less. Maybe I've just been incredibly lucky?

Just curious.

 

[AerroMatt]

Amatuer?

Hey Matt, when someone says 250 below 10, do you correct them and say "Don't you mean 10,000"? Don't be an idiot. Weren't you one of those over there defending this guy saying "Let's wait on the NTSB report"? Any professional on here knew that when I wrote 5 that I meant 5000 ft. Guess you are still learning. Pleases keep your thoughts to yourself unless you want to confirm for the folks that you are an amature, most of your posts are amature in nature, and you have no idea about what's going on out here in Corporate aviation. Please, go back to truckin', Billy Joe Bob.

Hmmmm... Ah thinks ah found myself one of dem "God's gift to Aviation" types whose $hit don't stink.

...and yeah, I'm still learning... after 21 years in this business. A corp flight dept manager learns real fast to keep a close eye on those "God's gift to Aviation" types. Do my best to keep them away from newbies with real potential and pair them with other "$hit don't Stink" attitude know-it-alls who turn into crybabies as soon as they get alone in a cockpit where they don't think anyone can hear them.

Best be careful who you flame and call amatuer, LRvsH25B... I just may be the guy you want to send your resume to for that next "dream job"!

 

[G100driver]

In English please? :erm:

(just trying to keep up )

So I'm wondering ... how prevalent is the 'cowboy attitude' among Pt 91 departments? Is it a situation of "one in every department" or is it much less. Maybe I've just been incredibly lucky?

Just curious.

Cowboy is everywhere. Not just doing blatantly stupid stuff.

Cowboy is always saying, yes. IE do you exceed a 14 hour duty without hiring a relief pilot on a regular basis? Do you double up on rooms to save your boss money? Do you ever defer MX or S/B's because they are expensive and are not required? (not talking about optional S/B's here)

Cowboy is in the attitude of doing it differently from the accepted IS-BAO practices and "standard" protocals to avation. You will recognize this when you see it. When you see it, or worse, work for it, the hairs on the back of your neck will stand-up and you know that you have found it.

 

[Tonala2k]

hmmm BFL? Must have something to do with landing distance. Brake-Free Landing, maybe.

 

[81Horse]

Bakersfield -- yeah, that's it!

 

[Snakum]

Ummm ...no. That's the TLA they use for Balanced Field Length.

It's their world, and I'm just a squirrel trying to find a nut.


G100 .. thanks for the info. I guess I have been quite lucky, as absolutely nothing is done half-azzed there, by the owners or by the pilots. A very sharp, professional little outfit, I reckon. imp:

 

[CapnVegetto]

Hell I don't know the #'s for a straight 560, but the redline speed in the Encore is 292. That's one rule broken.

200 knots 400 feet off the ground??? Hell, if you're ref +15 in the flare get ready to float like crazy!! Any CE-500 pilot knows it takes more time than 400 feet AGL to touchdown to slow the dam thing down. Dam, you can't even put down full flaps at that speed!!

What a duma$$. The skies are safer without him. Gene-pool cleansing, as I like to say.

 

[tracearabians]

Did this dude have relatives in Meridian, Ms ?

Hell I don't know the #'s for a straight 560, but the redline speed in the Encore is 292. That's one rule broken.

200 knots 400 feet off the ground??? Hell, if you're ref +15 in the flare get ready to float like crazy!! Any CE-500 pilot knows it takes more time than 400 feet AGL to touchdown to slow the dam thing down. Dam, you can't even put down full flaps at that speed!!

What a duma$$. The skies are safer without him. Gene-pool cleansing, as I like to say.

 

[CelticCitation]

You weren't there

QueerVs.152B-

You weren't in the aircraft, neither was I. Not defending the decisions that were made that day, but they paid for them. After you have died of old age after a long successful career, you might have some insight on who is a cowboy or who isn't. Have some respect for the dead, and do your best not to be the next one that is being discussed on this board. I don't know who will stand up for you if you become a smoking hole, especially after the comments you have made. There isn't one of us who can't be snatched up by misfortune, cowboy or not.

My condolences still go out to the families and friends of those who were lost in this and every unfortunate accident that we have been unable to prevent.

 

[G100driver]

QueerVs.152B-

My condolences still go out to the families and friends of those who were lost in this and every unfortunate accident that we have been unable to prevent.

My condolences as well ... however, we must learn from being stupid ... no matter how you cut going 300 at 5000' is being stupid. Going 200kts on short final is stupid. Going off the end of the runway on a failed go around because you were too fast is stupid.

If I doing anything that stupid in my career, feel free to call me on it.

 

[SabreFlyR]

My condolences as well ... however, we must learn from being stupid ... no matter how you cut going 300 at 5000' is being stupid. Going 200kts on short final is stupid. Going off the end of the runway on a failed go around because you were too fast is stupid.

If I doing anything that stupid in my career, feel free to call me on it.

Well said!

 

[LRvsH25B]

QueerVs.152B-

You weren't in the aircraft, neither was I. Not defending the decisions that were made that day, but they paid for them. After you have died of old age after a long successful career, you might have some insight on who is a cowboy or who isn't. Have some respect for the dead, and do your best not to be the next one that is being discussed on this board. I don't know who will stand up for you if you become a smoking hole, especially after the comments you have made. There isn't one of us who can't be snatched up by misfortune, cowboy or not.

My condolences still go out to the families and friends of those who were lost in this and every unfortunate accident that we have been unable to prevent.

Respect for the dead? It's not like the wing fell off in cruise and killed these folks. This pilot killed these folk by getting into a situation that he could have easily prevented. I don't need anyone to stand up for me; if I did something like this, I deserved the out come because I knew better and was intentionaly doing things I knew would get myself killed and possibly innocent people as well. This was not misfortune for the pilot, it was inevitibality. Don't kid yourself. This is one great example of a pilot who had it coming, the passengers did not, not did they deserve the outcome they got. Here are people paying good money for a professional to transport them safely in their aircraft and they got nothing close to that. They got some guy who thought he could do it all, and look at him now. Self induced circumstances exceed skill, and he takes others with him. This guy is no better than murderer. For the passsengers, yes, condolences all around, for the pilot, my foot up his A$$ is all he would get from me. Remember the old saying, there are bold pilots and their are old pilots, but there are no bold old pilots. The one that fits this best is "Aviation is like a self cleaning Oven".
Finally you are right, I was not in the aircraft. Had I been, his failure to relinquish the controls to me due to his failue to fly the aircraft within the scope of the AFM and FARs would have resulted in a$$ whoopin' through 9,000 feet. If I am flying with someone like this and they refuse to stop, I'll do what I have to to make sure it never happens again. I'll not sit by and let someone run me into the ground while my arms are folded and my mouth is shut. No way am I going to have my family read about me burned up at the end of some runway because I let some jerk off kill me because I was too scared/weak to speak up. No thanks. No corporate job is good enough to die for. If you're dead, what's the point?
So, happy trails to this fuk, he runied several families and that is unforgivable due to the circumstances. Had this been an accident that would be one thing, but don't you dare sit up here and talk as though this was just some accident. If the pilot had walked away and the fate of the passengers remained the same, I guarentee the pilot would be in jail for negligent homicide, and the data is there to warrent such action.

 

[52560]

Folks...I find this thread very hateful. The majority of accidents are human error. All of us arm chair quarterbacks can always look back and determine where bad decisions and mistakes were made. The key here is to learn from them and move on. I don't know the pilot, and know very little about this accident, but I do know that every pilot I know has at one point or another has called a brother pilot a stupid a$$ or some other name for doing something foolish. We've all done some stupid things, but most of us are lucky enough to walk away without anybody getting hurt.

So, let me ask you this. What if this was you in this accident. How would you like not to be able to tell you side of the story to your wife, kids, etc. How about your family hearing about what a stupid idiot their husband, daddy, brother was?! There will be people that read this thread that will get killed in an airplane accident! What if it is you? Is this what you want to be said about you. Grow up folks...this reminds me of a bunch of flight students wearing Top Gun glasses and jackets sitting around talking about how good of pilots they are and they could never do something stupid. If you have never done something stupid in the cockpit, you are wasting my time because you have never flown an airplane!

You know, the bad thing about this is there are people who will want to reply and call me names, insult my professional abilities, and insult the crew of this accident even more. That is fine if you want to degrade yourself and profession. It happens very often as it is, why stop here. Sometimes I feel embarassed by some of my brothers in this profession. We are in this together guys...we need to stick together and show some repects for our brothers we have lost along the way! Just remember, you may be the subject on a thread tomorrow about an airplane crash.

 

[LRvsH25B]

Folks...I find this thread very hateful. The majority of accidents are human error. All of us arm chair quarterbacks can always look back and determine where bad decisions and mistakes were made. The key here is to learn from them and move on. I don't know the pilot, and know very little about this accident, but I do know that every pilot I know has at one point or another has called a brother pilot a stupid a$$ or some other name for doing something foolish. We've all done some stupid things, but most of us are lucky enough to walk away without anybody getting hurt.

So, let me ask you this. What if this was you in this accident. How would you like not to be able to tell you side of the story to your wife, kids, etc. How about your family hearing about what a stupid idiot their husband, daddy, brother was?! There will be people that read this thread that will get killed in an airplane accident! What if it is you? Is this what you want to be said about you. Grow up folks...this reminds me of a bunch of flight students wearing Top Gun glasses and jackets sitting around talking about how good of pilots they are and they could never do something stupid. If you have never done something stupid in the cockpit, you are wasting my time because you have never flown an airplane!

You know, the bad thing about this is there are people who will want to reply and call me names, insult my professional abilities, and insult the crew of this accident even more. That is fine if you want to degrade yourself and profession. It happens very often as it is, why stop here. Sometimes I feel embarassed by some of my brothers in this profession. We are in this together guys...we need to stick together and show some repects for our brothers we have lost along the way! Just remember, you may be the subject on a thread tomorrow about an airplane crash.

Sorry you feel the way you do but you ask what if it was one of us. The point to all of this and what makes this crash so terrible is that most of us would not be in this situation. We know better than to do the things he did. This whole incident goes well beyond doing something foolish or making a simple mistake. This guy intentionally brought this situation to the table then aggravated it by not realizing how deep in he was and having the nerve to think he was good enough to land the aircraft at double the ref speed then try to over come his own doings when it developed to a point that most test pilots could not have come away from this situation favorable. When you do the things that this guy did, how do you honestly expect the situation to turn out? There could be no good outcome; too many factors and varaibles stacked against him by him. Airplanes are designed to perform in the air, not on the ground.

 

[HS125]

Folks...I find this thread very hateful. The majority of accidents are human error. All of us arm chair quarterbacks can always look back and determine where bad decisions and mistakes were made. The key here is to learn from them and move on. I don't know the pilot, and know very little about this accident, but I do know that every pilot I know has at one point or another has called a brother pilot a stupid a$$ or some other name for doing something foolish. We've all done some stupid things, but most of us are lucky enough to walk away without anybody getting hurt.

So, let me ask you this. What if this was you in this accident. How would you like not to be able to tell you side of the story to your wife, kids, etc. How about your family hearing about what a stupid idiot their husband, daddy, brother was?! There will be people that read this thread that will get killed in an airplane accident! What if it is you? Is this what you want to be said about you. Grow up folks...this reminds me of a bunch of flight students wearing Top Gun glasses and jackets sitting around talking about how good of pilots they are and they could never do something stupid. If you have never done something stupid in the cockpit, you are wasting my time because you have never flown an airplane!

You know, the bad thing about this is there are people who will want to reply and call me names, insult my professional abilities, and insult the crew of this accident even more. That is fine if you want to degrade yourself and profession. It happens very often as it is, why stop here. Sometimes I feel embarassed by some of my brothers in this profession. We are in this together guys...we need to stick together and show some repects for our brothers we have lost along the way! Just remember, you may be the subject on a thread tomorrow about an airplane crash.

Here here, very well said.

LRvsH25B, you need to learn some humility. Learn from this mistake so that you don't screw the pooch someday!

 

[G100driver]

Folks...I find this thread very hateful. The majority of accidents are human error. All of us arm chair quarterbacks can always look back and determine where bad decisions and mistakes were made. The key here is to learn from them and move on. I don't know the pilot, and know very little about this accident, but I do know that every pilot I know has at one point or another has called a brother pilot a stupid a$$ or some other name for doing something foolish. We've all done some stupid things, but most of us are lucky enough to walk away without anybody getting hurt.

So, let me ask you this. What if this was you in this accident. How would you like not to be able to tell you side of the story to your wife, kids, etc. How about your family hearing about what a stupid idiot their husband, daddy, brother was?! There will be people that read this thread that will get killed in an airplane accident! What if it is you? Is this what you want to be said about you. Grow up folks...this reminds me of a bunch of flight students wearing Top Gun glasses and jackets sitting around talking about how good of pilots they are and they could never do something stupid. If you have never done something stupid in the cockpit, you are wasting my time because you have never flown an airplane!

You know, the bad thing about this is there are people who will want to reply and call me names, insult my professional abilities, and insult the crew of this accident even more. That is fine if you want to degrade yourself and profession. It happens very often as it is, why stop here. Sometimes I feel embarassed by some of my brothers in this profession. We are in this together guys...we need to stick together and show some repects for our brothers we have lost along the way! Just remember, you may be the subject on a thread tomorrow about an airplane crash.

1st off, we for the most part are not trying to be hateful. Just mere peer review. If I cause an accident because of my error or as in this case blatant stupidity I would expect my peers to call me on it. It is called peer review.