For those that oppose a change to age 60

[Andy]

I was going to PM this to a list of FIers, but opted to post it on the majors board in order to get it maximum exposure.

There is one last hurdle to overcome to keep age 60 in place for the next couple of years (I make no predictions past that). When the 109th Congress adjourned, they didn’t complete their task of funding the government for FY07; they passed a temporary Continuing Resolution to fund the effected agencies and left nine appropriations bills as unfinished business. One of those appropriations bills, HR 5576, funded the Department of Transportation. The text of S 65 (changing pilot retirement age to 65) was inserted during subcommittee markup of HR 5576 in the 109th Congress. While HR 5576 is dead, the Appropriations subcommittee will likely use HR 5576 as a template for the final appropriations bill.

It will be up to the 110th Congress to pass those appropriations bills and they’re likely to do so in one omnibus appropriations bill. After the bills leave committee, Senators will only have a yes or no vote; they’ll be unable to remove any offensive parts of the bill. Therefore, it’s very important to target key Democratic Senators on the Appropriations Committee to have the text of S 65 stripped from the Transportation Appropriations Bill.

I’ll break it down into three groups of Senators where your efforts will get the most bang for the buck. The first group is THE KEY group; if you are only going to contact one group, hit the ones on the Appropriations Committee. Note that many names are on multiple lists.

First are the Senators on the Appropriations Committee and Appropriations Subcommittee for Transportation (this is where any changes to the bill will be made). They have not been finalized, but this is the latest information from Sen. Reid’s (D-NV; Senate Majority Leader) website. The key targets here are:
Sen. Byrd (D-VW) *
Sen. Inouye (D-HI)
Sen. Leahy (D-VT) *
Sen. Harkin (D-IA) *
Sen. Mikulsi (D-MD) *
Sen. Kohl (D-WI) *
Sen. Murray (D-WA) *
Sen. Dorgan (D-ND) *
Sen. Feinstein (D-CA)
Sen. Durbin (D-IL) *
Sen. Johnson (D-SD)
Sen. Landrieu (D-LA)
Sen Reed (D-RI)
Sen Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Sen Ben Nelson (D-NE)
* indicates member of Subcommittee on Transportation, Treasury, the Judiciary, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies

Second, several Senators received contributions from ALPA and APA PAC. They are: (note that the first six were in key races)
Sen. Brown (D-OH), $10K ALPA, $5K APA
Sen. Cardin (D-MD), $5K ALPA
Sen. Casey (D-PA), $5K ALPA
Sen. McCaskill (D-MO), $5K ALPA
Sen. Menendez (D-NJ), $10K ALPA
Sen. Webb (D-VA), $5K ALPA
Sen. Akaka (D-HI), $7.5K ALPA, $5K APA
Sen. Baucus (D-MT), $2.5K ALPA
Sen. Bingaman (D-NM), $10K ALPA
Sen. Byrd (D-WV), $10K ALPA, $4K APA
Sen. Carper (D-DE), $5K ALPA
Sen. Clinton (D-NY), $5K APA
Sen. Conrad (D-ND), $7.5K ALPA
Sen. Durbin (D-IL), $5K ALPA
Sen. Feinstein (D-CA), $7.5K ALPA
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), $7.5K ALPA, $5K APA
Sen. Lautenberg (D-NJ), $5K ALPA
Sen. Murray (D-WA), $5K ALPA
Sen. Ben Nelson (D-NE), $10K ALPA
Sen. Rockefeller (D-WV), $2.5K ALPA
Sen. Sanders (I-VT), $10K ALPA
Sen. Stabenow (D-MI), $7.5K ALPA

Third, are the Democrats on the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. They are:
Sen. Inouye (D-HI), Committee Chair
Sen. Rockefeller (D-WV), Aviation Subcommittee Chair
Sen. Kerry (D-MA)
Sen. Dorgan (D-ND)
Sen. Boxer (D-CA)
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL)
Sen. Cantwell (D-WA)
Sen. Ben Nelson (D-NE)
Sen. Pryor (D-AR)
Sen. Carper (D-DE)
Sen. McCaskill (D-MO)
Sen. Klobuchar (D-MN)

As far as the content of any letter/e-mail/fax/phone call to the Senators’ offices, I recommend hitting on the following points:
1) In the 109th Congress, a legislative amendment to change pilot retirement age to 65 was added to HR 5576, an appropriations bill. Since changing pilot retirement age is a legislative action, it’s inappropriate to leave this legislative amendment in an appropriations bill.
2) On 4 Jan 2007, Sen Inhofe introduced a legislative bill, the Freedom to Fly Act, with the exact same content as is contained in the appropriations amendment. This is a subject that should be debated in the light of day, not buried deep within an appropriations bill.
3) Include something in the subject line indicating that you are writing in reference to the Transportation Appropriations Bill so that your correspondence can be directed to the proper Senate staffer.

Congress does not like to use appropriations bills for legislation, and even Senators in favor of an age change will have problems with a legislative amendment attached to an appropriations bill.

Here is a link with information to contact these Senators: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

 

[Black Hawk]

Those of us in favor of the change to 65 should make use of the information as well. America's a great place.

 

[Andy]

Those of us in favor of the change to 65 should make use of the information as well. America's a great place.

It's a democracy. I encourage everyone to write their representatives. I WANT this legislative amendment, buried in an appropriations bill, to get maximum attention.

 

[FoxHunter]

It's a democracy. I encourage everyone to write their representatives. I WANT this legislative amendment, buried in an appropriations bill, to get maximum attention.

Great job Andy, this issue deserves maximum exposure. This country needs to know that the new FAA accepted maximum age for airline Captains is now 65 for all pilots from Mexico, Canada, Japan, United Kingdom, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Korea, plus every other country in the world. The major exception is pilots employed by US airlines, who for the most part are US citizens.

 

[General Lee]

Great job Andy, this issue deserves maximum exposure. This country needs to know that the new FAA accepted maximum age for airline Captains is now 65 for all pilots from Mexico, Canada, Japan, United Kingdom, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Korea, plus every other country in the world. The major exception is pilots employed by US airlines, who for the most part are US citizens.

Hey Fox, when do you retire? Soon? The golf course is calling your name...British airways was thinking about allowing it to go UP TO 60. Other airlines in England allow guys to go to 62, in the right seat after 60. Anyone wanting to stay in the left is a greedy basterrdd.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Great job Andy, this issue deserves maximum exposure. This country needs to know that the new FAA accepted maximum age for airline Captains is now 65 for all pilots from Mexico, Canada, Japan, United Kingdom, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Korea, plus every other country in the world. The major exception is pilots employed by US airlines, who for the most part are US citizens.

If Saudi arabia does it, we better do it too. They also stone people to death in public areas. Maybe we should too.....Those countries are short on pilots, and we are not.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Benhuntn]

The only people who should be allowed to work past 60 are walmart greeters! For all others there is just too much risk involved.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Soon, our long national nightmare (Age 60 retirement) will be over. Good riddance!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If Saudi arabia does it, we better do it too. They also stone people to death in public areas. Maybe we should too.....

Well General....write your congressman about public stoning....let us know what kind of response you get.

Tejas

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Only one thing to say about the age 60 rule, career stagnation!!!!!


WD

 

[sandman2122]

Hey Foxhunter,

I don't fly for a Mexican, Canadian, Japanese, Korean, Israeli or Saudi airline, how about you???

Let us know what it's like when YOU do!

 

[The Prussian]

Only one thing to say about the age 60 rule, career stagnation!!!!!


WD

Well, then bro...only one way to fix it...change it!!! (Trust me on this one, bro)


TP

 

[boomlrd]

Fcuk U clowns that want anything past 60, aszlovers!!

 

[boomlrd]

I hate old people!

 

[capt. megadeth]

Question for those that are for Age 65:

First off, I am not against it but I have a concern.

Don't you all think that once this thing passes, the airlines will find a way to manipulate the change? Two concerns come to mind right off the bat. One is that I think they will try to get away with paying us less saying that we can make less hourly because we can work longer and make it up. The other is that I think the pilots at the airlines that still have pensions will get hosed. Undoubtedly management will impose a penalty for early retirement prior to 65 much like it would be for retiring prior to age 60. Like I said, I am not completely against it but I think it's going to be one of these things that management will screw us with somehow and we will regret it in the end. JMHO. Whaddya all think?

 

[Phaedrus]

Mega: Of course they've thought about those very issues. The folks supporting this change aren't stupid, they're just greedy but rationalizing it with the "discrimination" card. If it weren't so transparent it'd be funny. Bottom line is they don't give a rat's azz about those issues. They are trumped by the fact that they got to profit from a system in place for decades and hope to have a huge windfall by changing it when they should be changing their Depends. I'll say it again, I'd have tenfold more respect for these money-grabbing jerks if they'd just admit (3B not included) that this is their goal. Farking liars to themselves.

 

[Ty Webb]

I really don't care whether it passes or not, since it will have little effect on me- I don't plan to fly to 60, let alone afterwards, but you guys supporting the change are hypocritical cork smokers. You benefitted from the rule all these years, and now that it doesn't benefit you, you want to change it.

Your complete lack of moral principles make me want to hurl. The last thing any of us need is to have your unprincipled self-centered dust-farting carcass around here for another 5 years. . . .

 

[General Lee]

I really don't care whether it passes or not, since it will have little effect on me- I don't plan to fly to 60, let alone afterwards, but you guys supporting the change are hypocritical cork smokers. You benefitted from the rule all these years, and now that it doesn't benefit you, you want to change it.

Your complete lack of moral principles make me want to hurl. The last thing any of us need is to have your unprincipled self-centered dust-farting carcass around here for another 5 years. . . .

Amen Ty. We have a bunch of guys like this at Delta, and they NEVER said anything when the Captains went to the FE seat at 60, as they moved from the right to the left. Ridiculous. Foxhunter will do the same---and he has seen many of his cohorts move from the left seat to the DC10FE seat. He plans on doing that anyway, unless he can stay in the left and laugh at everyone else.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[capt. megadeth]

I really don't care whether it passes or not, since it will have little effect on me- I don't plan to fly to 60, let alone afterwards, but you guys supporting the change are hypocritical cork smokers. You benefitted from the rule all these years, and now that it doesn't benefit you, you want to change it.

Your complete lack of moral principles make me want to hurl. The last thing any of us need is to have your unprincipled self-centered dust-farting carcass around here for another 5 years. . . .

So you are calling the other guys self centered, but yet say you don't care because it won't affect YOU. Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm

 

[Ty Webb]

Yep. In other words, I really don't care one way or the other . . . but the hypocrisy really stands out enough that I feel compelled to comment.

I would have thought that was self-explanatory . . . . what's going on with you lately? You're acting more like Capt. Mega-Menstrual . . . . ya put the ol' napkin on sticky-side up, or what?

 

[CA1900]

The problem is that most of the supporters of this change want it both ways: You want the rapid career advancement you already enjoyed, coupled with an extra 5 years at the top making the big money. To borrow a phrase, "get out of my seat, old man." You had your turn, now it's my turn.

There's only one solution that will raise the age, without screwing the people already in the system. Here's how I'd rewrite 121.383(c):


(i) For pilots whose initial commercial pilot certificates were issued prior to January 1, 2007 -- No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday.

(ii) For pilots whose initial commercial pilot certificates were issued on or after January 1, 2007-- No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 65th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 65th birthday.



If you're already a commercial pilot, you knew the airline rules coming in, and those rules shall apply to you going out. If you want to change the rules of the game, it's only reasonable to change them for the whole game, and that's only possible by having them out on the table before anybody gets into this stupid mess in the first place.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I would have thought that was self-explanatory . . . . what's going on with you lately? You're acting more like Capt. Mega-Menstrual . . . . ya put the ol' napkin on sticky-side up, or what?

What? I thought I've been more laid back lately.

 

[skiandsurf]

Capt. Mega-Menstrual . . . . ya put the ol' napkin on sticky-side up, or what?

Now that has to be one sticky mess.


Let the 60 yr olds move to the right seat and bottom of seniority. How many guys really want to work past 60. Most of you young guys want to retire by age 55 anyway, so I cant imagine that too many would continue flying past 60. The upgrades continue. Now the "old guys" will have a choice to continue flying if they choose.

 

[b747dogg]

It's a matter of safety! Keep 60.

 

[Ty Webb]

I've been saying that for a long time . . . . . let the over-60 crowd serve as FO's. . . . . that way, they don't impede anyone's upgrade, they can keep working if they want, and they get to fly with my favorite captain every day.

 

[skiandsurf]

It's a matter of safety! Keep 60.

It would be interesting to see the ages and hours of pilot error crashes in the past 20 years. I bet that the statistics will show that the younger and less flight time, the more likely to have an accident. (Comair, Pinnacle are the two that come to mind).

 

[CA1900]

It would be interesting to see the ages and hours of pilot error crashes in the past 20 years. I bet that the statistics will show that the younger and less flight time, the more likely to have an accident. (Comair, Pinnacle are the two that come to mind).

Terrific. Let us know when you're done analyzing the data, so we can all learn from your research.

 

[airfogey]

The problem is that most of the supporters of this change want it both ways: You want the rapid career advancement you already enjoyed, coupled with an extra 5 years at the top making the big money. To borrow a phrase, "get out of my seat, old man." You had your turn, now it's my turn.

There's only one solution that will raise the age, without screwing the people already in the system. Here's how I'd rewrite 121.383(c):


(i) For pilots whose initial commercial pilot certificates were issued prior to January 1, 2007 -- No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday.

(ii) For pilots whose initial commercial pilot certificates were issued on or after January 1, 2007-- No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 65th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 65th birthday.



If you're already a commercial pilot, you knew the airline rules coming in, and those rules shall apply to you going out. If you want to change the rules of the game, it's only reasonable to change them for the whole game, and that's only possible by having them out on the table before anybody gets into this stupid mess in the first place.

With that logic than the age 60 retirement rule should only have affected those whose commercial certificates wer issued after it took effect in 1959--after all -those hired before that did not have a mandatory retirement age in effect when they entered the industry.
I would like to see how all you young guys who want to retire at 55 plan on financing a retirement that could last 35 to 40 years--far longer than you actually work for and airline. It won't happen with a defined benefit pension anymore.

 

[capt. megadeth]

It would be interesting to see the ages and hours of pilot error crashes in the past 20 years. I bet that the statistics will show that the younger and less flight time, the more likely to have an accident. (Comair, Pinnacle are the two that come to mind).

That's interesting because whenever there has been a major airline crash (at least the ones I can remember), it has always been said "the captain and first officer had 50,000 total hours experience" blah blah blah which always led me to believe that they must have been older since they had all that flight time.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I would like to see how all you young guys who want to retire at 55 plan on financing a retirement that could last 35 to 40 years--far longer than you actually work for and airline. It won't happen with a defined benefit pension anymore.

Well, if you fly night freight you don't really have to worry about it. I will probably die at 65 so I guess I'll only need 5 years of income.....none if the age 65 passes cuz I'll probably croak as I land my retirement flight at 3am.