For Pete's sake make it stop!!!!

[earl]

So I am sitting here is ALS and on their incredibly loud P.A. system at the FBO, which constantly blares 122.8, comes the voice of a Laker. "Alamosa traffic Lakes air ### on a 20 mile final for a full stop Alamosa. Any traffic in the area of Alamosa please advise." That isn't so bad but then the same thing for a 17 mile final, a 14 mile final, 10 mile final, 8 mile final, 6 mile final, 4 mile final, 2 mile final and then a short final. Guess what, nobody F###in## answered them because nobody but Lakes and Me fly into this dusty, nasty, black widow infested craphole.

Oh ya, don't forget the call leaving the runway.

WHO F###IN## CARES!!!!!!!!!

Oh the humanity!!!

Mommy is it time for my juice yet?

earl

 

[say again]

So I am sitting here is ALS and on their incredibly loud P.A. system at the FBO, which constantly blares 122.8, comes the voice of a Laker. "Alamosa traffic Lakes air ### on a 20 mile final for a full stop Alamosa. Any traffic in the area of Alamosa please advise." That isn't so bad but then the same thing for a 17 mile final, a 14 mile final, 10 mile final, 8 mile final, 6 mile final, 4 mile final, 2 mile final and then a short final. Guess what, nobody F###in## answered them because nobody but Lakes and Me fly into this dusty, nasty, black widow infested craphole.

Oh ya, don't forget the call leaving the runway.

WHO F###IN## CARES!!!!!!!!!

Oh the humanity!!!

Mommy is it time for my juice yet?

earl

Why don't you get up and leave the FBO when they come in or try telling the workers to turn the volume down a little bit???

 

[Homer Jay]

How quickly we forget the collision that happened between Lakes and some dumb a$$ in a King Air back in Quincy, IL...

 

[FN FAL]

How quickly we forget the collision that happened between Lakes and some dumb a$$ in a King Air back in Quincy, IL...

Dude, that wasn't great lakes.

 

[pilotmyf]

So I am sitting here is ALS and on their incredibly loud P.A. system at the FBO, which constantly blares 122.8, comes the voice of a Laker. "Alamosa traffic Lakes air ### on a 20 mile final for a full stop Alamosa. Any traffic in the area of Alamosa please advise." That isn't so bad but then the same thing for a 17 mile final, a 14 mile final, 10 mile final, 8 mile final, 6 mile final, 4 mile final, 2 mile final and then a short final. Guess what, nobody F###in## answered them because nobody but Lakes and Me fly into this dusty, nasty, black widow infested craphole.

Oh ya, don't forget the call leaving the runway.

WHO F###IN## CARES!!!!!!!!!

Oh the humanity!!!

Mommy is it time for my juice yet?

earl

Sounds like good operating practice to me, I would F###### care if I were flying into ALS. In fact approach the crew and ask them to stop.

 

[FN FAL]

Oooooops, my bad...for some reason I thought it was one of those TWE flights...sorry!

NTSB Identification: DCA97MA009A
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Tuesday, November 19, 1996 in QUINCY, IL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/31/1998
Aircraft: Beech 1900C, registration: N87GL
Injuries: 14 Fatal.

The Beech 1900C, N87GL, was in its landing roll on runway 13, and the Beech A90, N1127D, was in its takeoff roll on runway 4. The collision occurred at the intersection of the two runways. The flight crew of the Beech 1900C had made appropriate efforts to coordinate the approach & landing through radio communications & visual monitoring; however they mistook a Cherokee pilot's transmission (that he was holding for departure on runway 4) as a response from the Beech A90 to their request for the Beech A90's intentions, and therefore mistakenly believed that the Beech A90 was not planning to take off until after the Beech 1900C had cleared the runway. The failure of the Beech A90 pilot to announce over the common traffic advisory frequency his intention to take off created a potential for collision between the two airplanes. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

the failure of the pilots in the King Air A90 to effectively monitor the common traffic advisory frequency or to properly scan for traffic, resulting in their commencing a takeoff roll when the Beech 1900C (United Express flight 5925) was landing on an intersecting runway. Contributing to the cause of the accident was the Cherokee pilot's interrupted radio transmission, which led to the Beech 1900C pilot's misunderstanding of the transmission as an indication from the King Air that it would not take off until after flight 5925 had cleared the runway. Contributing to the severity of the accident and the loss of life were the lack of adequate aircraft rescue and firefighting services and the failure of the air stair door on the Beech 1900C to be opened. (NTSB Report AAR-97/04)

 

[CA1900]

Yes, it was Great Lakes.
http://www.avweb.com/news/atis/184493-1.html

EDIT: You beat me to it.


Still, interrogating everyone in the pattern to "Please advise" is a pointless waste of precious frequency time, and either results in a big squeal as multiple aircraft key, or silence.

Tune in the frequency and listen while you're still well out. Announce your location at appropriate times (not every mile!), and listen for other aircraft to do the same.

"Any traffic please advise" just tells me you're not going to be looking out the window.

 

[FN FAL]

Yes, it was Great Lakes.
http://www.avweb.com/news/atis/184493-1.html

EDIT: You beat me to it.

No problem, I'm guilty of jumping the gun due to brainwashing. I have spent several weeks camping on the UIN airport on different occaisions over the years and the only air carrier planes I ever saw were these goofy looking things...
http://photos.airliners.net/middle/5/5/6/812655.jpg

 

[FlyChicaga]

I miss TWExpress. Those were some good times in STL.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Not to pi$$ on your parade, but it is the FSM/FOM at Lakes to make specific traffic calls. Among them I believe are 20, 10, 5, 2, short final, clear. They may be making more at that hole of an airport, but more is better than not enough.

 

[Cardinal]

And those calls are still in the FOM. earl, I feel your pain, brother. I remember Colgan and Commutair cruising overhead the airport I instructed at making these interminable traffic calls, and every time I would about come unhinged, since almost every airport in the state was on the same CTAF frequency. Then I came here and discovered the reason why.

Also, you must forgive us, more than half of our FO's have been hired within the last six months. Some haven't quite worked out the kinks, brevity being an important part of the skillset

 

[Cardinal]

And the "please advise" B.S. is just that. I wish the Feds would violate people for saying that useless bandwidth waster.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Haven't flown much in the LWR 48, but at my previous job at a uncontrolled field we would make one 10 mile call and thats it if nobody answered. Now if there was somebody in the pattern then you'd make more calls to let the other guy know........

 

[gt1900]

I don't mind the "please advise" phrase...Guys in 152's don't always realize when a 1900 comes in at 248 KIAS you can eat up a lot of ground real fast. They might not say anything because they think they are gonna be out of the way, but here you come blazing in for a downwind entry and your ontop the guy before he knows it and you didn't even know he was there. Lakes almost had an accident 2 years ago for a runway incursion at an uncontrolled field. Guess who gets violated when something like that happens. The 121 guy who is supposed to know better. The multiple radio calls, and "please advise" calls, aren't for the guys who know what they are doing. They are for the sunday fliers who don't pay any attention and can be a real problem when you start considering two planes with a 100 kts difference. Trust me, when you almost tee-bone some jerk because he didn't make any radio calls, you will understand why some lakers make so many!!!

 

[248to2.8]

I agree. Nothing wrong with asking for an advisement. Also a couple calls on arrival also help out when someone is starting up and taxing out for a departure, straight at your arrival. However it is funny to see some of my FO's not quite have that call figured out, and say, "All traffic in the area please be advised". Hehe

 

[wahoo250]

if your getting annoyed, then they are doing a good job. think about it. maybe not at a busy airport where you expect traffic, but at a dust hole where you dont...

"I don't mind the "please advise" phrase...Guys in 152's don't always realize when a 1900 comes in at 248 KIAS"

where the hell are you flying???

 

[nyboilermaker]

I do it all the time.

I'd rather decide who's going to try and kill me and my passengers in the pattern of some little airport than someone else.

Can't hurt, takes two seconds to say.

If it's a busy non-controlled airport, than I'll listen in an and make a position report. If I don't hear anyone around, I'll always ask if anyone's out there to advise me of what/where they are. The communication helps my situational awareness.

 

[atrdriver]

Haven't flown much in the LWR 48, but at my previous job at a uncontrolled field we would make one 10 mile call and thats it if nobody answered. Now if there was somebody in the pattern then you'd make more calls to let the other guy know........

What happens if someone was talking to center sitting at the end of the runway getting a clearance when you make that 10 mile call, then launches without talking because they didn't hear anyone? I make as many calls as I have time for. It's my a$$ that's going to have to answer if I collide with someone, either in front of a judge or by being dead. I'd sure rather be able to say I made 8 position reports than I only made 1 and no one knew where I was.

 

[FN FAL]

Not only that, but asking for an advisement is not a bad idea.

I have in the position of having to prod someone after they made an unclear announcement in the pattern several times. You call them back and they ignore you or just keep broadcasting in the blind like it's a one-way radio. It almost seems as if their instructor trained them to speak on the radio, but not to listen. That scares me, because it seems as if they are not paying attention or they are assuming that their self announcing is boiler plate protection against a mid-air. Or worse yet, maybe they don't know why they are announcing...could just be a Pavlov's dog thing. "Here's where we say dis and den we put down de flaps. Den we say dat, and pull on de carb heater doohicky..."

 

[dalegribble]

Then there are the weekend warriors with no radio or transponder too. TCAS and radios are no help with them

 

[ILStoMinimums]

What happens if someone was talking to center sitting at the end of the runway getting a clearance when you make that 10 mile call, then launches without talking because they didn't hear anyone? I make as many calls as I have time for. It's my a$$ that's going to have to answer if I collide with someone, either in front of a judge or by being dead. I'd sure rather be able to say I made 8 position reports than I only made 1 and no one knew where I was.

I flew in AK, most of the uncontrolled airport flying I did was in Western AK. With the Capstone (similar to TCAS), you knew exactly were everybody was. You can see guys on the ground and in the air on your MFD screen. Every now and then you'd see a plane that isn't equipped with the system, but not very often. We would use the capstone system as a reference to see if anything other than one 10 mile call was needed at that given time.

 

[earl]

What happens if someone was talking to center sitting at the end of the runway getting a clearance when you make that 10 mile call, then launches without talking because they didn't hear anyone? I make as many calls as I have time for. It's my a$$ that's going to have to answer if I collide with someone, either in front of a judge or by being dead. I'd sure rather be able to say I made 8 position reports than I only made 1 and no one knew where I was.

Well center won't release you if someone is inbound unless they have cancelled. Making 8 calls is a Pi$$ poor idea. How many other airports are they interferring with? And all this bashing about 152 drivers, just because you fly a 1900 for Lakes doesn't mean you're weren't flying a 152 for a living just a couple weeks before.

By the way Red Truck wine is FRKN FNTSTIC!!


earl

 

[~~~^~~~]

I can't figure out why airports with 48 TSA screeners to wand 11 passengers can't find the funds to operate a control tower.

Several weeks ago we had to go missed to avoid a general aviation pilot who seemed unsure of which taxiway he was on, who then blundered right into the approach end of the only runway we were on short final for. Going missed in a VFR pattern ( 180 in the pattern can be slow if we are heavy ) with other little airplanes around and no tower is more excitement than I like.

Part 121 ops should require a tower.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Part 121 ops should require a tower.

Are you sure about that? Can't imagine anybody would wish that on him/her self. Some companies fly into more uncontrolled airports than controlled.

 

[Cardinal]

How many other airports are they interferring with?

In the Alamosa San Luis Valley? Exactly 0. On the East Coast the CTAF frequencies are a nightmare of people stepping on each other. Out west there is jackall going on. It's a rare day when we actually see another aircraft moving at our outstations. You could sing "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" on freq an nobobdy, except you, would care. So we'd just assume do as ye old book instructs.

In addition to the Quincy debacle, a pair of our pilots got violated when an out-to-lunch GA guy in RKS got so flumoxed by the presence of another aircraft in the pattern that he stalled an crashed. How the Feds figured on that, I don't know, but there's a bit of instituional paranoia. Idiot in Action

 

[CA1900]

Good lord... I particularly like this part of the NTSB report:

"...the captain said they received a Terrain Clearance Avoidance System traffic advisory showing "+300 feet," but then it disappeared. "

What in the world is a "Terrain Clearance Avoidance System"?

 

[onionluvr]

"Please advise" works

I think the "please advise" call works well. I just timed myself saying those two words. It took one second. Doesn't sound like a waste of airtime to me.

I agree that it is stupid in a busy traffic pattern, when it's obvious there is traffic, but on those quiet days or maybe when it is marginal VFR, it works well.

I've never expected a 152 to just get out of my way because I fly a faster and bigger plane, but I do need to know his position so I can plan ahead.
Getting a response to "please advise" allows for more options, or it may prompt a conversation where the 152 driver will offer to extend his downwind. I used to do it all the time so the guy burning all the expensive gas could get in sooner. Besides, I was getting paid by hobbs time back then.

 

[maddog805]

"Alamosa traffic Lakes air ### on a 20 mile final for a full stop Alamosa."

The "for a full stop" portion makes me laugh. Talk about a waste of breath.

 

[atrdriver]

Well center won't release you if someone is inbound unless they have cancelled. Making 8 calls is a Pi$$ poor idea. How many other airports are they interferring with? And all this bashing about 152 drivers, just because you fly a 1900 for Lakes doesn't mean you're weren't flying a 152 for a living just a couple weeks before.

By the way Red Truck wine is FRKN FNTSTIC!!


earl

I guess you have never heard someone tell center "well I'll just launch VFR and activate in the air". Or "we've got the field in sight, we'll go ahead and cancel". You think it's a bad idea, fine. I will continue to make as many calls as I have time for. It's my happy a$$ and that of my passengers I'm looking out for.

 

[propjockey]

This post is undoubtedly going to sound elitist to some. Please understand it isn't meant to be. I don't think I'm SkyGod The Omniscient. I'm just stating some facts and personal experiences, along with some observations.

Not only did I use the phrase "please advise" when making my initial position announcement at Lakes, but also after one too many run-ins with GA pilots, I started announcing my TIME-to-go to the airport.

To echo what someone said above, I believe that a lot of pilots who have never flown anything faster than a 182 cannot comprehend on any experiential level the difference in speed between a Be-1900 (let alone a CRJ) and the piston single they're flying. If I call 30 miles out, they may subconsciously think I'm 20 minutes out when it's really more like 5 minutes.

While I agree that "please advise" used in every call is excessive, when used in the initial call, it does seem to trigger in the minds of those who hear it a sense of situational change -- that "there is traffic in the area, and I should pay attention to hear where he is and what he is doing." It absolutely works, and I use it to this day in the RJ.

More often than not it has the desired effect of a) announcing my presence, and b) getting everyone else in the area to do the same. I don't use the time-to-go report much anymore, as people seem to have more innate sense that "jets are fast."

I could tell you story after story of bonehead GA pilots I encoutered when flying for Lakes who would not make ANY radio calls, including a guy who took off when we were on final, opposite direction, at dusk with no lights on, and passed 100' below us according to TCAS. I'm going to give these clowns every opportunity I can to answer me.