For Instructors - Question About Student Personality Problem

[User546]

I have a guy that I'm working with for a biennial, and I've noticed lately a personality "flaw" that I need help no figuring out how to get around.

He's an older gentleman (in his 60's) and he currently has his private pilots license. He owns his own airplane, and I've been working on getting him thru his BFR, and bringing back up to speed all around.

However, I've noticed that anytime I go to correct him or tell him he did something wrong, he gets kind of offensive about it. For instance, yesterday we were doing touch n goes, and he forgot to bring his flaps up as we were starting to takeoff again. So I mentioned it, and he acted real irritable about it, and assured me he hadn't forgot. He had, we were just about to rotate, and his hands weren't anywhere near the flaps. We aborted the takeoff, and tried again.

Another issue he is having is not undertanding how an airplane stalls. For instance, on base or final we'll get the stall light coming on, with a nice "sink" forming in the airplane, and he'll jsut sit there and say "theres no way this airplane is stalling, we're at 92, this thing doesnt stall until 64. This inevitablly turns into a discussion that "YES, the airplane CAN stall at 92, with flaps and gear down, in a descent." He always assures me he knows what I'm talking about, and then he'll turn around and get right back into it.

So during gruond yesterday we were talking abotu stalls again, and he was getting irritated that I was teaching it to him "cause I already know all that!" He can talk the talk, but if I correct him, or tell him nicely that he's wrong, he gets really offended and irritated at me about it. Then he starts to totally block out what I'm saying.

I know other instructors have had students like this.... what do you do to get thru to them, and how is another approach I can take to making him learn and understand this stuff without him being so difficult?

Thanks in advance for the replies!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

One thing that comes to my mind is you may want to talk to your boss about it. I had a student that was pre-solo that was nowhere near ready to fly without an instructor. He used to go out of town on business trips and would fly with an instructor at another airport who assured him he was ready to solo.

He would bring this up in our conversations, and I would point out that I didn't feel he was ready. It got to the point that if the other instructor thought he was ready to solo, I told him to ask him to sign him off next time he went up there.

I kept my boss in the loop just incase it turned into one of those "my instructor is milking me for flight time" complaints, which was my initial thought in reading your post.

The tough thing about BFRs is that most people think it's a quick and painless process, when in reality most of these people are extremely rusty in an airplane.

Another possibility is to send him up with another instructor to see their take on him.

Good luck either way.

 

[Flechas]

Hey User, I've had a couple guys like this.
One of them was the same situation. Older guy, needed a BFR, wanted to get his IFR rating, but had already failed the ride 3 times.

When we started flying he proved to be rusty and was showing the same signs of agression and always trying to blame something else other than him.
After the second flight together he said that next flight we would do 3 touch and goes and I'd give him the endorsement for the BFR (he wasn't anywhere close to being proficient).
So I told him that I needed to talk to him. I told him that when we were flying, we were not in a contest of who knows more (to everything I corrected he wold say "Iknow Iknow").
I also told him that we have to have clear that I'm the instructor and you are the student, so I decide when you get my signature, not you. I told him I was more than happy to fly with him but he needed be open to learning and not give me attitude. If he didn't like my terms he could go to another instructor, I told him I know plenty that wold give him an endorsment just to make a few bucks and log a couple hrs.

All this was said in a very diplomatic an professional way.
One of the most important thing for me when I was instructing was to always do a good job, nto milk the students, and keep my reputation with students and examiners (most of my students were word of mouth, which kept me pretty busy, so I wasnt about to wreck that for a few hrs)

 

[User546]

I don't work for a flight school, I just do it freelance on the side, all by word of mouth.

I commend this guy, because he actually seeked me out and the first thing he said is "I need to get a BFR sometime, but would you be willing to go up with me for 5 or 6 flights, or however long it takes, and get me back up to speed flying this airplane." The guy recognizes that he doesn't fly very often, and his Mooney is probabably a bit much airplane for him now-a-days. I like the sending him up with another instructor idea.

The "Come to Jesus" talk might not be a bad idea as well. Theres no doubt in either of our minds who the "smarter" one is, and he aknowledges that, but he just doesn't want to be told he's wrong. When he does get told that (even in a nice diplomatic way) he shuts down and quits paying attention to me. I dont think its purposely that he's doing this, i just think its part of his personality, and like most ultra-successfull business people, he probably hasn't been told he was wrong too much in his life!

 

[Flechas]

Tell him you are not trying to hurt his pride, and ask him how does he want you to tell him when he is wron. I had one student ask me to yell at him, so I did, and we got all his rating no problem.

Instead of telling him, "hey, you did this or that wrong", after he makes a mistake you can ask him "what do you think you could have done better" so that way he brings up his mistakes, learns more, and feels betetr about himself.

 

[Mach1]

About a month ago a guy came in and wanted to talk to an instructor about a flight review. I sat down with him and within the first minute he was telling me that the regs title the BFR as just 'flight review', and that's because " you instructors don't know how to spell biennial, you usually write biannual in the logbook." He was in his late 50's and I think that it's just a confidence/intimidation problem. I just acted professional and got through it, I won't see him again for two years anyway!

 

[FlyingToIST]

All I can say is be very careful about BFRs. Period. There is this guy who is a partner on a nice single that I fly with. He is retired, in his late 60s and very sharp. He recommended that I should fly with his parter, who is a loaded up to neck with $$$$ but has a bad attitude.

He was involved with an airspace violation and class B violation. It was so bad that Seattle Approach had to divert airliners away from him. During the FAA investigation I got involved and turned out that he never got a BFR for last 30 years he was flying. He wanted one then..

It was one of the scariest experiences in my life.. He would get the airspeed to higher part of yellow arc when he was high and fast by pushing the nose down and throttle in.. He refused to do stalls because he didn't feel comfortable with them..

So, we landed back to the base and grabbed his log book.. I logged the flight and told him that we had more work to do.. He gave me the spiel of "I was flying before you were born" .. threw the logbook to my face and stiffed me for $70 ..

Last month he ended up in a ditch by the runway of a local airport. There were tire marks on the runway very bad. He was ok, but he kept it hush hush by saying "I'll get it fixed, get a new motor and will pay for everything".

I don't know if NTSB or FAA got notified , but I am glad that my signature is not in his logbook..

 

[Kream926]

your signature........your cfi #


i would say to him that i didnt feel comfortable signing him off and that he should go find someone else. period.

 

[Milkdud99]

If he "already knows everything" tell him that everyday aviation is a learning experience. If you ever feel that you've stopped learning, take a break from it. NO ONE knows everything about flying. if he knows "everything" about stalls just start talking about swept wings and eliptical wings. im sure he doens't know about that!

 

[check6]

I think older pilots have some pride and also have a hard time taking advice from younger CFIs. Flat out, however, it's a matter of safety. It's amazing how many people can't differentiate floors of Class E airspace(something I like to get picky about). I just explain that even though it is a review of stuff, it is my discretion.

 

[Bluecruiser]

Kudos to FlytoIST's comment.....Having done flight reviews as both a freelance & school-employed CFI, I can say you have to be very, very careful, your name and blessing is with them. DO NOT ANYONE talk you into a signature until you know they are ready.

Along the same subject, I recently 'fired' a student whom I was having (among other problems) a personality conflict with. First time I have ever done so, I hated it. My student has been successfull in nearly all aspects of his personal & professional life, except in flying. Long story short, we struggled through his private and then the appropriate endorsements for a high-performance single he owned. In addition to having a learning disability, he refused to study and improve and carried a 'chip on his shoulder' every time he was at the airport. Always came to fly with the attitude that I wasn't going to help him, we needed to fly just so he could have that signature in his logbook. After consistently exercising poor judgement and really, really dumb errors, I was afraid he was a smoking hole waiting to happen, probably when his wife and kids were onboard.

My course of action (and what I would recommend for the original post...) was that I told him that we were not making progress and that I believed that safety was a real issue. I told him that I wanted him to succeed, however I felt that things were not moving forward and that it was in his best interest to try someone else (which I provided) to evaluate him and then we could go from there. He took it pretty well and eventually he finished with another CFI. I suppose some will find fault with what I did....but in all honesty I actually slept better knowing I won't see his family in court someday down the road. I hope that helps---remember, you are not Superman, just an instructor...not everyone out there is going to always be up to the task.

 

[JediNein]

If it's someone I don't know, I hand 'em a copy of our flight school's PPSEL/BFR Study Guide. If they throw it in my face, we've not wasted either's time. They go on their merry way thinking what an a$$ I am, and I move on to someone that happily wants to pay me $$$ for my time. If they look at it, grimace, and think they can tackle it, now I'm dealing with someone that I won't be awake at night worrying about their flying.

I don't feel the most responsibility towards the pilot. I feel the burden from the pilot's family. You get to meet the wife and kids, including the two and a half year old that *always* gets sick on landing and after you instructed the father, the kid *never* gets sick anymore (undiagnosed ear infection, kept the descent rate below 300 fpm). Sometimes it is the husband making sure you are good enough to instruct his wife in something she's always dreamed about but he never did. You're going to be sitting next to the remaining spouse at the funeral if you didn't do your job right. This instructor job is tough sometimes.

Keep in mind that you are sometimes that pilot's only hope for an attitude change they can accept and implement in their flying. It sounds like this pilot has an attitude from wherever, but for now, he's still listening. Try to keep him doing so if you can.

I've found that sometimes you have to let them fail, but in a safe environment where they know their personal failings are safe with you. Build the relationship to the point where he can listen to you.

One way to do this is praise the person, correct the performance, praise the person (sandwich technique). Praise "you" (public/private), correct with "we" (in private): [Name], I am impressed by your courage to keep coming here and trying. And you did a good job today. I really liked the way you did [insert whatever]. We need to work a little more on slow flight. Remember how we heard the stall horn [etc]? When that happens we need to [how to fix]. [Maneuver] was fine, [insert reinforcement of whatever]. I'm happy that I got the chance to fly with you today.

Another thought is to offer "tips & tricks" instead of corrections. None of us like to fail. No matter your intention, the message received is that of failure, raising his defenses. To avoid them, try cushioning your corrections: "That might work better for you if you try [x]." "I'm lazy. I don't like to work too hard. I find it easier to do [x]." "While the method you're using works, this might be easier/faster/more efficient." "I have a little trick that I use for that, would you like to see it?" "I've a deep, dark secret for [x] that no one ever tells us." "Of course it's hard, the flight instructors union fought to keep it hard so we can stay in business with BFRs!" "You're working too hard! Try [x]."

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

I have given many flight reviews to folks like this who had personality issues, conflicts, etc. It is not that big of a problem, keep in mind that you are there merely to ensure that he is safe, competent, and that he isn't a risk to himself, his passengers, and to those innocent on the ground below. He is not a student pilot nor is he seeking any additional training required for a rating. My sole objective with these kinds of pilots would always be the same, make certain they were safe, aware, and wouldn't put their life in danger or any others. I would not turn these reviews into trivia sessions just to see how many times I could stump them. You can pretty much tell in the first 5 or so minutes into the flight as to what kind of pilot they were.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Grab his testicles with your left hand and squeeze hard enough that you almost black out. Remove your hand and then make a fist and place that fist against the right side window. In one fluid motion then elbow him in the nose with the left elbow putting your weight into it and following through much like a golf swing. Repeat. Now state your last point and see if his hazardous attitude has been corrected. If so you have both won and if not repeat until the desired result is achieved.

 

[Crimson03]

Google 'narcissitic(sp) personality disorder'
The dead pilot doctor/lawyer stereotype fits right in.

 

[User546]

Thanks guys and gals(?) for all your responses and suggestions. Appreciate all the good ideas and perceptions offered.

(Keep em coming if you still wish to contribute!)

 

[Ron Mexico]

I don't work for a flight school, I just do it freelance on the side, all by word of mouth.

I commend this guy, because he actually seeked me out and the first thing he said is "I need to get a BFR sometime, but would you be willing to go up with me for 5 or 6 flights, or however long it takes, and get me back up to speed flying this airplane." The guy recognizes that he doesn't fly very often, and his Mooney is probabably a bit much airplane for him now-a-days. I like the sending him up with another instructor idea.

The "Come to Jesus" talk might not be a bad idea as well. Theres no doubt in either of our minds who the "smarter" one is, and he aknowledges that, but he just doesn't want to be told he's wrong. When he does get told that (even in a nice diplomatic way) he shuts down and quits paying attention to me. I dont think its purposely that he's doing this, i just think its part of his personality, and like most ultra-successfull business people, he probably hasn't been told he was wrong too much in his life!

Just a little psyco babble to think about and keep in mind. If your assesment of him is correct then his frustration may really directed at himself not at you. Most of these older guys who have been flying for awhile may be realizing their time is coming to an end and fighting it!!!! I don't know for sure, so I am guessing here but, the guy has probably been flying forever and he is afraid of loosing it!!! Kindda like when Grandma runs over the Voice box at Mickey D's and drives home with the menu stuck in the grill...All the family has to draw straws to choose who takes her keys!!!!

Remember it is YOUR ticket and if he screws up and kills someone guess who is going to have a nice flight with the FAA!!!? YOUR ticket is more important than keeping this guy happy!!!!