Flying without a license or solo end.

[Tired Soul]

Ok serious for a minute.
Suppose the following scenario:
You have a student at the school that doesn't listen very well.
He keeps showing up with half his family and wants to take them along on training flights and sees no problem on having 3(!) screaming kids on the backseat of a 172. One day he meets on the flightschool premises with another guy and proceeds with negotiations and eventually buys the guy's airplane without having done any prebuy inspections or whatever.
We told him we could not train him and set him up with a independent CFI on the field, who calls us several days later that he never heard from him.
Now one day we see this airplane take off, bounce back on the runway 3 times and nearly crash. Plane gone for several weeks.
Last week plane shows up again on the airport. I watched it land and saw the guy get out and he was alone.
Kind of chatted to him in the FBO and he now claims to have found a cheap CFI on the other side of the state (>50NM) who has signed him off for flights back and forth. No way I believe him. Yesterday I saw him get in his airplane taxi out with the oil insp. still open and t/o without a runup.
Is there anything I can do about this? maybe prevent him from killing himself?
Call the feds? They have to catch him pretty much in the act and what will prevent him from doing it again? He has nothing to be revoked?
Should I even bother?

 

[Lead Sled]

Is there anything I can do about this? maybe prevent him from killing himself? Call the feds? They have to catch him pretty much in the act and what will prevent him from doing it again? He has nothing to be revoked?
Should I even bother?

Personally, I believe that, as a CFI, you have an obligation to do something about it; perhaps not legally, but certainly morally. Hey, if he kills himself it sounds like merely yet another example of the "Law of the Jungle" in operation. The problem is that it sound like he'll probably take some innocent and trusting family and friends with him.

The scenario that you described is not all that uncommon, over the years I've heard many stories - some actually pretty funny, others quite tragic. Actually, I was involved in one of the funnier ones. Over twenty years ago I had a job flying a C-421 for a company in Wyoming. The owner of the company also owned a C-182 that he purchased new and learned to fly in. The problem was that he never bothered to complete his training and take his checkride. This guy however, faithfully filled out his logbook for each and every flight and as I remember had something over 700 hours. When he confided in me the situation he asked me if I could help him make things right. I went to a friend of mine at the FAA and explained the situation. I was told to finish up the required checkride preparation flights and and sign him off. I was given the name of a DPE to use for the guy's ride. It actually went very well. I wonder if today's "kinder, gentler" FAA would be as kind and gentle. They weren't out to crucify this guy, but they wanted him legal.

As Paul Harvey would say, "You've heard the story, now you'll hear the rest of the story..." After this happened it got all around the airport that "John" had finally got his license. I made a "tongue-in-cheek" remark to the airport manager's wife that if "John" could do it then maybe I would get my license as well. About two weeks later, you guessed it, I taxied up to the ramp and was met by a couple Federales - they had driven over from Casper just to ramp check me. It seems the Feds couldn't find my records - no wonder since the lady misspelled my last name and didn't know that I go by my middle name. Of course the Feds had no record of me. When I got out of the airplane I was duly asked to show my license and medical - which I did. After a couple of questions and an apology they went into the FBO's office and chewed out the airport manager and his wife for 30 minutes! Those folks wouldn't talk to me for months.

I would, at the minimum, take my concerns to the airport FAA Safety Counselor. I would even consider a call to the Local FSDO. They will take it from there. This guy as actually put you in a tough position, no one likes to be a snitch, but he's going to end up hurting people.

Lead Sled

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

If I remember correctly, flying without a lisence is a fine the first time (and any ratings are revoked) and jail the second time (what you will recieve, not what the max penalties are).

 

[Tired Soul]

Well the saga continues, haven't done anything about it yet.....

Let's assume he really does not have any endorsements, would they FAA get the Police involved and make it a civil case?
Operating a motor vehicle without a license?

 

[Lead Sled]

I understand that they have several options when it comes to prosecution - civil and criminal. Remember, no one wants an unlicensed pilot wandering around. In reality, they'll probably slap his wrist the first time they catch him. Is he still flying?

Lead Sled

 

[flyifrvfr]

If you have given this student instruction but did not give him a solo endorsement, I would assume he is flying solo without the endorsement. I would then ask this person to show you his solo endorsement, you were the last known instructor to work with him and you want to insure he is legal.

Here is where it gets to be a sticky situation. As an instructor, you can't just sign people off for solo without giving him the required instruction per FAR 61.107 (B). If he does have a solo endorsement from another instructor, the endorsing instructor better had given him the instruction under FAR 61.107. His logbook should show flight training from the other instructor addressing the above listed FAR even if a prior instructor also gave this training. Failing to do this could result in a violation to the instructor.

Since you gave this person instruction, and he is soloing without your endorsement, you have the obligation to check his logbook for the endorsement. Tell him that he either shows you the endorsement, or you will report him to the FAA to cover yourself.

 

[350DRIVER]

Let's assume he really does not have any endorsements, would they FAA get the Police involved and make it a civil case?
Operating a motor vehicle without a license?

How can you be so "sure" that he hasn't found another CFI who has given him the required endorsements to be able to make the flights back and forth to that airport. I have seen this done on may different occasions and to be honest with you I have questioned the skills of a few of these guys on more than one occasion.

It is hard to assume things in this "game" or industry as some would like to call it.

Assumptions are the mother of all fukc ups.

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[Lead Sled]

How can you be so "sure" that he hasn't found another CFI who has given him the required endorsements to be able to make the flights back and forth to that airport.

As I see it, that's exactly the point. You can't be sure one way or the other. From Tired Soul's posts, it sure sounds like the guy would be the type to try it. Perhaps the real question is - As a CFI, what is Tired Soul's (or any other CFI's) responsibility is a situation like this?

It's a tough situation, but supposed he's one of those guys like the guy I used to work for. Suppose he took one of your family members for a ride?

Personally, I'd recommend that Tired Soul simply pass his concerns over to the local Safety Counselor or the FSDO Safety Manager. They'll take care of it from there, one way or the other. Hopefully, he'll be legit.

Lead Sled

 

[CDVdriver]

Well looks like you have a decision to make here.

 

[Tired Soul]

Well one of the problems is I cannot be sure 350 driver.

I only have a very strong suspicion, that's all.
I've never flown with him, not my name in his logbook.
Anyway he told me he got an instructor signing him off for multiple >50 nm xc.
This guy's taking off when I'm landing because of thunderstorms. Any CFI checked the wx for him? Checked his nav log? Last time I saw him he took off with his oil hatch still open and no runup. How do I know?
I was behind him on the runup area and did not see a change in his prop motion before he took the runway for a flight to the east with Cb's looming.
So it's either a no-good CFI who signed him off or no endorsement at all.
I agree assumption is the mother of all F*ck ups. But I think I got the right end of the stick here. Just not sure yet what to do about it.

 

[350DRIVER]

Well one of the problems is I cannot be sure 350 driver.

I only have a very strong suspicion, that's all.
I've never flown with him, not my name in his logbook.
Anyway he told me he got an instructor signing him off for multiple >50 nm xc.
This guy's taking off when I'm landing because of thunderstorms. Any CFI checked the wx for him? Checked his nav log? Last time I saw him he took off with his oil hatch still open and no runup. How do I know?
I was behind him on the runup area and did not see a change in his prop motion before he took the runway for a flight to the east with Cb's looming.
So it's either a no-good CFI who signed him off or no endorsement at all.
I agree assumption is the mother of all F*ck ups. But I think I got the right end of the stick here. Just not sure yet what to do about it.

Well I would say go with what you feel is right then.. .. If I were you I would simply make it a point to approach him and just have a pre-planned story made up, something a long the lines of "the FAA has just started a new program that is regulatory in manner that any student pilot taking off from this airport with intent of seeking flight instruction at another airport must have his logbook, etc, reviewed". If he has nothing to hide then he should be willing to do this and comply without any second thoughts. . Sometimes it is easier to fabricate the truth a tad just to make sure all bases have been covered.. If when you check he is not legal to be making these flights then that is when to act and notify the appropriate people/organizations.

If indeed you find out that he is "legal" and he continues to make poor choices and decisions then make a call to his CFI and voice your concerns. His CFI may or may not be aware of what has been taking place and he probably will put an end to this if he has any desire to keep his tickets since this could be an accident in the penalty box waiting to happen.

I would do the two above mentioned things prior to doing anything else, think outside the box....

good luck,

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[flyifrvfr]

After re-reading the original post, I can assume that someone gave this person an initial endorsement as per FAR 61.87 which is the FAR I wanted to reference in my earlier post. I would still ask to see his logbook for the required endorsements.

 

[JAFI]

Tired, I suggest caution in approaching this person. You can approach 200 million Americans with no problem but it is the "few" who may go postal on you.



1. You have no authority (that I know of) to ask to see his log book. If you ask (with out authority) and he shows it to you, that’s fine. If he in fact is doing something illegal he most likely will not want to show his log book to any one. But, legally he does not have to show it to you. In any case watch out for the nut cases. Some hang out at airports.



2. I agree with the other posters, I do not want an unsafe or untrained pilot lose on the world. You should know an Aviation Safety Councilor (non FAA Inspector) in your area. You can call the FSDO to get names and numbers or go to a Wings or other FSDO presentation. There are usually a few Councilors at these events. Any instructor (especially a young one) needs experienced mentors to assist them in the learning and teaching process. Seek advice from some one you know and trust, very much - I repeat KNOW and TRUST, VERY MUCH.



3. The FAA Inspector is the only one who has the Federal authority to ask for a logbook (some state police may also but I do not know which ones).



If you decide to go the FAA route let me add this. It is not uncommon for pilot "A" call the FSDO to "rat" on pilot "B" just because he hates his guts and just wants to cause him pain. Again I recommend the Safety Councilor to act as a mentor and to introduce you to an Inspector (if you do not know any) before you go any further. The FSDO can ask to see his log book or ramp him as he leaves the aircraft he just landed in.

If you have a specific questions PM me and I will do what I can to assist you.

JAFI

(Just Another Fu#$ing Inspector)

 

[flynryan15]

Hey

Airports and N number please I don't want to be on the recieving end of this guys smoking hole!!!!!!!1