Flying IFR

[Flyin Tony]

I have not flown in a cloud or under VIS of about 5 miles ever sense I got my IFR in DEC. The other day I was out and about in the Comanche and wanted to go into the LA Basin. But IFR like always. Just a OVC layer at 020-030 1,000 ft thick with 10sm vis under it. I thought about going but my Dad and my Brother were with me and I didnt want to kill us all.
What are the best places to go to get good at the scan and just flying IFR. I dont think I want to do it at my FBO. I would like to go with someone that flys the stuff all the time. Does anyone know of any schools that do a IPC program that I can do in my plane. I know of a few but does anyone know of the good places.
I found www.dsflight.com that looks like it would be fun. Anything will Help thanks and fly safe, Tony

 

[IP076]

Now there is a business idea. This guy has definately got a good head on his shoulders. 5500 dollars each, thats 11000 per trip. Lets say 30 hours on the airplane at 100 an hour is only 3000. Add in some room and board, I bet this guy makes good money doing that. And its fun! Seems like a good program though. It'd be a good way to gain some experience, but expensive.

 

[350DRIVER]

This is the problem with many of the CFII's that I have come across in this industry, they will not get their students much actual instrument time. Why? Probably because they do not have much time in the soup themselves and the confidence level is not where it needs to be at to be taking their students up in it. It is quite sad that one can actually obtain the instrument rating with all time being in "simulated" conditions versus gaining the actual real life experience in the real imc. I would not throw your money away with those fly by day outfits, go find a good & experienced CFII and get some actual instrument time until you feel comfortable. I can not recall the amount of PM's I have gotten by II's asking this same very question. If you are a CFII then you should be comfortable enough in the soup to be able to get your students up in it.

money much better spent if you ask me.


3 5 0

 

[IP076]

That's sometimes easier said than done.

I used to instruct in Arizona...I had 35 hours of actual, which was probably more than 90% of the instructors at the school (80) combined. Fact is, you just don't get much actual in Arizona.

I agree though, if you are a CFII, you should take any chance you get to get your students (and you) some actual experience. I used to love taking students to California on IFR cross countries...only thing, it was a long trip, all for a .3 of actual.

I used to laugh because people would be practicing the approaches they were going to fly on cross countries in the sim (CFII's). Isn't the point of an Instrument Rating is that you can fly IFR....anywhere. An ILS is an ILS is an ILS. One shouldn't need any more practice than a thorough approach brief.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Honestly, if I had the time/access/money to run through a sim for every approach I would be doing on an XC, I would do it. You can never be prepared enough. Never know when the extra practice will come in handy.

Alot of CFII's around here get some actual. We have icing problems and C172's don't have good de/anti-ice equipment so when it gets cold, you can't go into actual.

 

[labbats]

I make sure that all my instrument students get at least one hour actual before they get signed on the ticket. Most get a lot more than that.
Foggles are no substitute for the real thing.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

My last IFR signoff had about 15-20 hours actual including NIGHT actual IMC. Sure makes them remember to turn the airport lights on before they break out!

 

[Flyin Tony]

Well thanks guys. Im going up today but its real windy. Gust to about 30. And the basen is foged in so we are going to KSNA and KFUL. Thanks for the info. TONY

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Burritos, how did your student rack up 15-20 hours of actual?

 

[labbats]

I don't know how he did it, but I'll tell you how I maximize IMC.

Block Altitudes.

 

[tathepilot]

This is the problem with many of the CFII's that I have come across in this industry, they will not get their students much actual instrument time. Why? Probably because they do not have much time in the soup themselves and the confidence level is not where it needs to be at to be taking their students up in it. It is quite sad that one can actually obtain the instrument rating with all time being in "simulated" conditions versus gaining the actual real life experience in the real imc. I would not throw your money away with those fly by day outfits, go find a good & experienced CFII and get some actual instrument time until you feel comfortable. I can not recall the amount of PM's I have gotten by II's asking this same very question. If you are a CFII then you should be comfortable enough in the soup to be able to get your students up in it.

money much better spent if you ask me.


3 5 0

I second that !!!

 

[tathepilot]

I have not flown in a cloud or under VIS of about 5 miles ever sense I got my IFR in DEC. The other day I was out and about in the Comanche and wanted to go into the LA Basin. But IFR like always. Just a OVC layer at 020-030 1,000 ft thick with 10sm vis under it. I thought about going but my Dad and my Brother were with me and I didnt want to kill us all.
What are the best places to go to get good at the scan and just flying IFR. I dont think I want to do it at my FBO. I would like to go with someone that flys the stuff all the time. Does anyone know of any schools that do a IPC program that I can do in my plane. I know of a few but does anyone know of the good places.
I found www.dsflight.com that looks like it would be fun. Anything will Help thanks and fly safe, Tony

Well, you can come to ny..
It has been ifr (imc) for the past two weeks.


KFRG 281236Z 15007KT 2SM +TSRA BR OVC003 15/15 A2962 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT N AND E TSB09 P0033

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

Burritos, how did your student rack up 15-20 hours of actual?

We did all our X/C's in actual and most of the approaches. We just had a few weeks of crummy weather and went up in it every time.

And it's not stretching the rules, that was real in the cloud time. It was more like 15 hrs actual too. It all adds up bit by bit.

 

[Lead Sled]

For what it's worth, I made Weather Flying by Robert Buck and Instrument Flying by Richard Taylor mandatory reading for all of my instrument students after they have passed their checkride. They aren't the typical ground school textbooks; in fact, they contain little, if any, weather or instrument flying theory. Weather Flying discusses how to fly weather in the real world and Instrument Flying discusses how to fly the various instrument procedures in the real world. They are easy and enjoyable reads.

Most people, after getting their instrument rating, still have little or no idea how to safely use it. It can be pretty intimidating getting the first real IFR experience. Reading these books will go a very long way towards converting all of that theoretical knowledge that you learned in ground school and flight training to practical use. I've always felt that it would take several hundred hours of actual IFR experience to gain the practical knowledge and insight that these authors have put in these books.

I recommend them highly.

Lead Sled

 

[johnpeace]

wtf?

As a private pilot who is looking forward to instrument training (and instrument flying, and instrument instructing)...

What is wrong with the way we teach flying that 'Most people, after getting their instrument rating, still have little or no idea how to safely use it.'

I believe this is probably true. When I talk to instrument rated pilots, they almost always express a reluctance to fly in clouds.

That, to me, sounds like something is wrong...

 

[350DRIVER]

I believe this is probably true. When I talk to instrument rated pilots, they almost always express a reluctance to fly in clouds.

What is even worse is when you talk to some CFII's and they won't launch into IMC with students unless they can break out at around 3000agl as a safety barrier, so much for hard imc time.


go figure..

Once again, they probably had very little if any actual when they were obtaining the instrument and/or CFII. The trend needs to be reversed to better enchance the safety factor.

3 5 0

 

[ThomasR]

IMC

You have already proven you can do it. So, just do it. What you are afraid of is staying oriented and being committed to changing needles and digits, the actual flying part is easy. Go VFR on Top to practice routing.

 

[BeachBum]

'Most people, after getting their instrument rating, still have little or no idea how to safely use it.'

One thing I did and I recommend is to hit up some good IMC conditions as much as possible after getting your instrument ticket. And don't limit yourself. If the weather is within IFR limits and not unsafe (i.e. thunderstorms), fly in it. I think a lot of people decide right after they get rated that they'll start off by limting themsleves to some standard weather conditions, like 2 miles vis and 800ft cieling for example, and then end up never feeling safe enough to exceed those limits. That's complete BS.

Another recommendation I have is to do you're training in the least technologically advanced plane possible. Two VOR receivers, a glideslope, and maybe an ADF, ought to serve you just fine. Don't go for some fancy flatscreen doohickeys that show your plane on a sectional chart or something like that. Then you'll never learn how to navigate. You'll just learn to push buttons and program the GPS. I think these big color moving map units are a crutch to a lot of instrument students.

 

[Lead Sled]

This thread raises some very significant points. It must be understood that merely possing a license or rating doesn't imply a high level of competence or skill, but rather it signifies that one has met some arbitrary minimum level of knowledge, experience and skill. As a wise man once said, "it's just a license to learn."

There was a time when things like weather flying, radar usage, etc. were passed down from senior, gray haired captain to "green" inexperienced copilots. Nowadays, many of us don't have that opportunity - we get our ratings and suddenly find ourselves in the left seat of a light airplane looking out the window and seeing our first real view of the inside of a cloud. At that point, you come to realize just how ill prepared you really are to be where you are.

How you you handle it? First, you should do is establish, in advance, your personal minimums and limitations. All pilots, from the newest private pilot to a senior 747 captain, have personal limitations and minimums. Establish comfortable personal limitations for visibility, ceilings, crosswinds, etc. and never exceed them while under the pressure of needing to complete a flight. In the beginning your personal limitations and minimums will be significantly higher than is legally required by the FARs. You will probably be able to modify them as your experience and skills increase. Just don't be in a big rush to expand your personal minimums - it happens over time.

Always have a "Plan B" and a "Plan C". There's an old saying in aviation that says accidents occur when the pilot runs out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the same time. Always have a realistic, legitimate and viable backup plan and always have a realistic, legitimate and viable backup plan to your backup plan. (It sounds redundant, but it's not.) On a clear day, your backup plans might be simply, "We'll go to this airport and land and if that won't work we can go to that airport and land." On those days when the weather or fuel are real issues your backup plans become very critical. What will you do if the visibility or ceiling falls below your personal minimums? Where will you go? What airports are nearby? The 2nd backup plan (Plan C) is used to get you safely on the ground when your original plans have gone "south". It keeps you from getting in the dangerous position of having to make up the rules as you go. That's the way many pilots have gotten themselves into serious trouble. Always have two workable and realistic alternative plans. When things get tough, the peace of mind they provide is priceless.

Like I said, get those books I mentioned. Read them through - cover to cover - two or three times, then go out there and carefully "stick your toe in the water". Leave yourself a way out.

Lead Sled

 

[labbats]

Those are two of the three best aviation books I have read. The third is "Fate is the Hunter".

I can't remember which one said it, but I always think of one author saying that he had everything planned out as a First Officer for the flight, and was speaking with the Captain before takeoff. The captain looked over all his hard work and asked one question... "where's our out?" or something to that effect. The First Officer had done all this work and forgotten the most important factor. He didn't know which way to turn, climb, or descend in the face of danger. That's a great lesson.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

One thing I did and I recommend is to hit up some good IMC conditions as much as possible after getting your instrument ticket. And don't limit yourself. If the weather is within IFR limits and not unsafe (i.e. thunderstorms), fly in it. I think a lot of people decide right after they get rated that they'll start off by limting themsleves to some standard weather conditions, like 2 miles vis and 800ft cieling for example, and then end up never feeling safe enough to exceed those limits. That's complete BS.

Another recommendation I have is to do you're training in the least technologically advanced plane possible. Two VOR receivers, a glideslope, and maybe an ADF, ought to serve you just fine. Don't go for some fancy flatscreen doohickeys that show your plane on a sectional chart or something like that. Then you'll never learn how to navigate. You'll just learn to push buttons and program the GPS. I think these big color moving map units are a crutch to a lot of instrument students.

Well said. Learn basic instrument flying first, then go back and learn IFR GPS. Do not try to teach yourself IFR GPS because you can get yourself in trouble REAL QUICK with that.

Did you fly the 210hp T-41? They rock.

 

[BeachBum]

Did you fly the 210hp T-41? They rock.

Yeah. Can't beat paying $50/hr for a true four seat single that climbs out at 1300-1500fpm at sea level.

 

[Tinstaafl]

When I taught instrument ratings AND any instrument part of a licence I sought every piece of cloud I could find. I also like to do some of the flights at night.

As for minimums with students: If it was legal & safe to go - including having alternates - I'd go. Just like when doing air taxi/charter/cheque runs etc.

Occasionally we'd have to delay our departure, hold while a TS went through, divert or even land & wait for a while. No different to the real world really.

 

[Mr. Cole]

I have my IR checkride scheduled for Tuesday, if the weather holds up. Now, with 8 hours of actual, almost 70 total hours simulated and actual instrument, two instructors and one year later it is almost upon me, for better or worse. I have wondered how I will ease my way into my first solo IMC experience. Maybe with another Instrument Rated pilot on board? I too read Buck and Taylor before starting my rating and I can certainly see how I will be going back to them once I'm done. I must say that even though it took me longer than I expected to finish, flying in the NYC area has given my an opportunity to fly in some of the world's busiest airspace, experience amended clearances, plan my routes around frequent TFR's, and a lot of other experiences that I hope will make me better in the long-run.

Dave

 

[Flyin Tony]

Thanks for the info. I went up the CA coast and got .5 in the clouds. It wasnt that bad. Now I want to go again! As for the plane its not the best lookin bird, but she ran good untill I ran out of GAS! Only in the left aux. Thank god. As for our panel, well nothing good, ADF, 2 VOR's, DME, And a autopilot (helps alot). Its in the shotgun pattern. I will get the books. Thanks for all your info guys!
(its time for a turbo)

 

[vetteracer]

When I was intsructing private students I made them go in the clouds to get some IMC. So if they happen to get cought in it they could at least control the aircraft to do a 180.

In SD there is no shortage of IMC, so durring private training I would use Block altitudes as mentioned. This works best if it is 4 or 5 thousand over. You can go into the soup on your way to the practive area, and then lower out to do the lesson. Then back into it on the way to the airport. With a tower airport a local IFR is easy to get.

As for fresh Instrument rated pilots, I tell them that this is a licence to learn. Implement self imposed weather limits. Say 2000 over and 5 miles. That way they break out early on the approach and in a worse case they can get ATC to lower them down in a safe area.

There is nothing more dangerous then a private pilot with an instrument rating with 250 hours and 5 IMC.

I applaud your good self assesing that you need to hone your IMC skills. To many people kill themselves and everone else in the plane due to pressing a bad situation.

I did not feel 100% confident IMC until I had about 100 hours IMC. This includes being able to fly the aircraft and do other tasks, and know your position in space.

Mark

 

[pilot_guy]

Another recommendation I have is to do you're training in the least technologically advanced plane possible. Two VOR receivers, a glideslope, and maybe an ADF, ought to serve you just fine. Don't go for some fancy flatscreen doohickeys that show your plane on a sectional chart or something like that. Then you'll never learn how to navigate. You'll just learn to push buttons and program the GPS. I think these big color moving map units are a crutch to a lot of instrument students.

Bad Advice...stop living in the past. Learn BIA flight, and how to use the VOR and ILS, but also learn how to use the latest and greatest WAAS enabled GPS and CAPSTONE if available. I learned to fly instruments in an old Cherokee 140, exactly as you described, two navcoms, one gs, and the adf. That's fine. I can give you time to station based on my bearing, distance to the vor, and all those really "cool" formulas that you learn for your written. What will that get me though? Doodley squat.

Problem is, I don't know how to use a GPS in an airplane. I should rephrase that; I now know how to punch in my destination airport, but I've never flown a GPS approach, or hold, or gone IFR Direct via GPS.

Like it or not, VORs will eventually go away. Probably not at the rate we all once believed, but they will go. NDBs are already on their way, as county airport operators realize that they can save money on that generator fuel by simply shutting the NDB down. Unless you're flying in West Texas, or some other sparsely inhabited place, I wouldn't sweat learning NDB approaches as much as learning how to use the new equipment. Besides, most GPS approaches are just overlays on old NDB approaches.

What I'm getting at, is if you don't learn how to run it, you'll end up like me, behind the curve on the latest technology. I used to think it was great to learn and understand everything about basic instrument navigation (meaning NDB navigation/approaches, and learning all the formulas that go with it and VOR navigation. You should be able to track a VOR from your private pilot training anyway, so you shouldn't have to waste time on it.) Then I realized I was behind the curve when competing against my peers in the pilot job market. That is unless you just wanna drop meat, or drag rags, and traffic watch, cause that's about all you'd be good for. Even Ag pilots use GPS in their work.

You're in there training. After you get BIA down, and ILS approaches, might as well learn the latest equipment while you're still in a "training" mindset. I know we're never supposed to stop learning, but again, I reference the FOI and the theory of primacy. It's like old people and computers. They have to learn a totally new way of doing things, whereas, we who were exposed to computers early on have a predisposition to using them. You're already there, just get it done.

 

[JediNein]

Another old thread, but I'll bite... (oh yeah I'm bored -- cancellations all day today!)

1. Add "Instrument Flying Made Easy" to your stack of books to read.
2. Definitely stay out of IMC until you master the GPS unless you keep it off.
3. Grab a CFII that happens to be confident in IMC and have 'em take you through the LA Basin with the Marine Layer. Lota fun! Expect to pay a bit more for these confident CFIIs than the average ink-wet CFII, but it'll be worth it. If you're still looking for one try *insert shameless plug* us at http://www.slantgolf.com or http://www.genehudson.com. *end shameless plug*

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Airway]

I got my IFR in sunny SoCal, and then I went back for another year in school in Michigan. I barely ever got actual the summer of my training, maybe a few times, but not much at all. When I got back here, for the first couple of months this semester, I wasn't bogged down with school work so I flew a lot.

It was overcast quite a bit, and I just jumped into it. I'll tell ya one thing, flying under the hood is way easier than being in overcast. I remember I spent about 15 minutes cruising in a thick overcast at night, and everytime I slowed my scan for just even a second, I'd be in a bank or all over the place. Eventually you get the hang of it a bit.

That said, if you do decide to get in the soup, just keep your scan sharp and do not be distracted by anything. I remember I was getting distracted by the GPS at one point. You already know how to fly on instruments, but if you're really feeling a bit uneasy, just go up with a CFI or with a seasoned IFR pilot for the first few times.

Cheers,
Adam