flying animals

[Pink Panther]

Hello,
Say you fly a load of chickens, say during take off those chickens start to fly, do you maintain your original gross weight?

Probally this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find it.

Thanks

 

[skeezer]

Yes.

Even though they are in flight, they are using the air within your cabin to fly. Since you are carrying the air in the cabin when you fly, then you are carrying everything within the air as well.


Skeezer

 

[jetdriven]

are you saying the chickens exert a downforce on the cabin to fly? If so then where is the energy expended by the chicken being directed?

 

[AlbieF15]

If I walk into the back, wring the neck of one chicken, pluck the carcass, and throw him in the microwave...then eat him...does the gross weight change? I'm wondering if the conservation of energy applies here.

 

[skeezer]

are you saying the chickens exert a downforce on the cabin to fly? If so then where is the energy expended by the chicken being directed?

errrr yes and no. Yes, the inital chicken liftoff would probably exert a downward force on the cabin which would temporarily cause an increase in aircraft weight. However that was not my original point.

My first point is this, when you fly an aircraft you are carrying the weight of air within then cabin as well. That air onboard has a weight that the aircraft feels. Back in high school science or chemistry class your lab teach probably had you weigh a flask that was open, and one that was evacuated. The open one weighed more. The same principle is in effect here.

When the chickens take flight they become part of the air mass. Therefore that means the airmass not only has its original weight, but that of the chickens. Now, this assumes that the chickens are simply floating in that airmass like a balloon. I guess you could get them to do this by pumping them full of Helium but they might explode, and that would suck.

In reality they need to flap their wings to stay aloft. This flapping forces some air downward which will strike the cabin floor and cause an increase in the weight (not mass) of the aircraft.

Of course the sharpie that I have been using for the last hour could be messing with my mind but I beleive I am correct (even if my reasoning is flawed). Afterall, if this were the case cargo companies would put all their stuff on little "hover palets" so that they could load more stuff on each flight.

Basically, there is no such thing as a free ride. Its the old every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Skeezer

 

[MetroSheriff]

I am not very smart, but...I have always thought that chickens can't fly. Doe's that matter????

 

[bssthound]

They can fly short distances; kinda like the Wright Flyer. It helps if they're perched atop a bucket or some other such object. Of course, we then wonder how the chicken got up there.

If Albie eats one of the chickens then I guess the trim moves forward a little. My computer doesn't have all the space-age advanced math symbols I'd need to illustrate that point. Of course, assuming there is another pilot, he/she would have to trim to keep up with Albie's journey through the cabin. Heaven forbid Albie might have to chase the chicken back and forth.

Next time on the Highway you see an 18-wheeler shedding chicken feathers, safely pull up alongside it, as long as it's a four-lane road, and check out the cages. They are equipped with compartments that hold just one or two chickens and thus prevent movement. The reason is that when chickens are frightened they will rush to one side of their area, smothering most of the other chickens. This eats into profits. Management, money-grubbing devils they are, has the afore-mentioned cages installed to prevent such catastrophes. You can rest assured, should you really haul a load of chickens some such restraint will be in the aircraft to prevent a premature mass death.

Has anyone here really hauled chickens in an airplane?? Is there any part of the country, unfit for the raising of these birds, that routinely has chickens flown in??

P.S. Does the CG change when Albie cooks his chicken. If he overcooks it, I have no clue as to his culinary skills, will the escaping steam change the air density in the cabin??

 

[MetroSheriff]

Chicken Haulin...

Back when I was flying freight, we had a run that went from Reno to Oakland twice a night on a Postal sub-contract for Evergreen.

The second return trip to Reno, once or twice a week, would be a full load (Metroliner III) of live baby chicks. They were pretty cute and I would sometimes peer in the boxes at them, and felt sorry for the little buggers having to ride as pax in a Metro. Anyway, one night I got curious enough to ask where all these thousands of baby chicks were going. As it turns out, there is a Huge reptile and exotic farms outside Carson City, and these little suckers were dinner for all the snakes and lizards and what not. After that I felt pretty bad. Like I said the were pretty cute.

Of course all that was pre-9/11. Now the poor pilot has to worry about those chicks hijacking the airplane and taking them somewhere where they won't be lunch. Not to mention the host of W/B issues, and aerodynamic considerations brought to light by this thread in regard to the dangers of carrying THAT MANY potentially a/c upsetting little chicks in the back. What with all that potential kinetic energy pent up back there looking for a way to escape their terrible fate...

 

[Bluestreak]

Sher'ff-you didn't see "Chicken Run" ? This is also covered in Barry Schiff's "The Proficient Pilot" (no chicken recipes,tho).

 

[aggiepilot87]

How about hauling a load of helium filled balloons? Also, what happens to the balloons when you land and begin slowing the plane? Assuming they're not in individual cages and free to move around the cabin somewhat.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Aggie Joke...

Did you guys hear the one about the Aggie who was flying around with a load of chickens???

Just kidding, but there might be a good joke in there somewhere...

 

[aggiepilot87]

Well, you gonna finish yours or not?!

How about the one where two Aggies were landing an airliner at Easterwood?

They were cleared to land. It was a nice VMC day. The captain was flying and looked out front to the runway. "Runway's in sight", but he wasn't real comfortable with what he saw.

He asked the FO to give him flaps 10. Proceeding with the approach, he began to get more nervous. flaps 30 please. Landing gear down, etc...

They were on short final now. The FO was becoming a little nervous seeing how his Aggie buddy was really sweating this landing.

Captain asked for full flaps very emphatically. FO complied and kind of braced himself as they approached the runway.

They touched down as close to the apch end as possible. As soon as the wheels were planted on the ground, the captain stomped on the brakes, used all the reverse thrust they had, spoilers, everything... The plane just rolled to a stop just prior to running off the far end.

After a moment or two of regaining their composure, the Aggie captain said, "man, that was a short runway." The FO looked out each cockpit side window and said, "...yea, but wasn't it a wide one!"

 

[sstearns2]

.......

skeezer,

Your thought about the fact that the chickens in flight inside the airplane would not increase the mass of the airplane, just the lift the wings of the airplane would need to make is interesting. Maybe there should be an alarm attached to the TCAS the goes off when you get a traffic alert. That way all the chickens would start flying and the airplane would be more maneuverable because of the lower mass.

Anyone want to figure out how much heavier a large airliner is pressurized verses unpressurized up at cruise? My guess is several hundered pounds.

Scott

 

[profile]

Hmm, my chickens have never been very great at flying, and the odds of having them all in the air at the same time is slim to none!

FedEx does do a lot of animal charters and at Tigers we used to haul lots of animals, including chickens. Usually we hauled the baby chicks, though. Most of the FedEx charters are either zoo, seaworld stuff or cattle and horses.

 

[leardvr]

Flying Pigs

In my days at AirNet I flew pigs more then once.

Everytime I flew them I was reminded in good heartedness that each one was worth over $10,000.00!!!! (Pigs are used for heart valves at the mayo clinic)

Any way on the way from Columbus to Rochester, MN in my favorite Navajoe I climbed to 12000' (no headwinds. All was fine in the climb out (contray to the saying Pigs don't like to fly), they were making ALOT of noise. About 30 min into the flight I don't hear anything, 20 min. later it regestered what that might mean I turn around to find a dozen hypoxic pigs opps...

It was about that time I thought lower might be better for this trip. At 8000' the ride sucked and you know what... they didn't like the ride. All the pigs do is complain.

Now I can say I've seen Pigs fly.

 

[profile]

Hmm, we were always told that pigs are extremely sensitive to pressure changes, etc. We would keep the cabin under 5,000' or so and keep the pressure changes as slow as possible. Glad I always had 3 packs running with these animal charters, don't envy doing them in small stuff. We carry 180 head of cattle on the MD-11 at times, you need all the airflow you can get! We raise the cabin to 10k periodically to dump the old air and exercise the outflow valves and keep the temp down.

 

[sstearns2]

Tigers

My dad used to fly for tigers, he was chief pilot for a while. Is it true that the FE had to go down and give the pigs gum before decent?

Scott

 

[profile]

If your dad's first name is "Gary", I flew with him as well! Don't recall any "gum", what was that story?

 

[Bluestreak]

I read in Airliners Magazine once about a DC6 Capt. in the 50's flying a load of monkeys-they used their livers to make polio vaccine back then.Anyways,he hadda go back and hold a wrench on a bolt on the inside of the door while a mech tightened it from the outside to bolt it shut,due to a bad latch.With just enough room to squeeze by the cages,the monkeys decide to voice their displeasure by pooping in their hands and and flinging it at the poor Capt.,while he urged the mech to hurry.He derived a great deal of pleasure by relishing their fate.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Skeezer-

Wow, all that incredible knowledge from a fellow Spartan!!! It's amazing to me that our school could have produced such a mind!!!

Seriously though, we are all going to miss you out here on the coast....we couldn't have asked for a better coach. Have fun in DFO!!!

Ni!

PS: How much snow will you be wearing this weekend???

 

[sstearns2]

......

Yup, my dad's name was Gary. He always told me that the FE had to feed gum to all the pigs so their ears would pop, otherwise the pigs eardrums would rupture and they'd bleed to death. I think he was kidding as that would be a rather lot of gum.

Scott

 

[skeezer]

PS: How much snow will you be wearing this weekend???

I'm not too worried about wearing too much snow as my jacket is waterproof.

I am much more worried about the large quantities that I will be ingesting every time I "bite it."

"You shal cut down the mightiest tree in the forrest WWiiiiiiiiitthhhh............A HERRING!!!!"

NI!!

Skeezer

 

[Eagleflip]

Chicken's Can Fly!

While this story will undoubtedly irk the local members of PETA, I'll tell it anyway for the aeronautical moral. And please--no FAR quotes on how dropping objects that could endanger someone on the ground. It wasn't me, and besides, this episode was safer than the "skydiving watermelon" story, which I'll tell later.

There I was, in Gastonia NC (20 west of Charlotte) on a calm summer day 21 years ago. That is, we were bored to death. Like all bad ideas, this one started harmlessly enough.

"Hey, chickens can too fly" said Howard, part owner of the Stanley Steamer, a hideously yellow and green painted 150 standing rather sulkingly on its haunches on the ramp.

"No way!" was the retort from the rest of the crew, including CJ, our local expert on these matters. Both middle aged, one would think they would not worry about these things.

The conversation degenerated from there to the inevitable "triple dog dare" phase, after which CJ disappeared for an hour only to return with a portable coop with, you guessed it, three white, mature, and unafraid chickens inside.

While Howard and CJ attempted to wrestle said coop into the back of the 150 (that in itself was entertaining), the rest of us placed small wagers on the outcome of these hapless birds. None of us were too worried about hurting them. I for one figured they would survive this, the first true "Survivor" episode, albeit without camera, producer or tribal vote.

Soon the birdmen cum scientists took off, carefully gonkulating the winds aloft and chicken drop angle, climbing a bit above pattern altitude to begin their experiment. After the fact reports indicate that Chicken #1, contrary to common belief, did not truly want out of that coop. Pecking a bit on the way out the barely-held-open door of a Cessna one knot above stall a thousand feet aloft, he finally exited the trusty craft aided by CJ.

Now, I have heard numerous times that chickens are nearsighted. Don't know how any scientist has actually figured this out, but I trust their judgement. After all, are they the ones who have brought us the dinosaurs in Jurrassic Park? Didn't they invent those nifty Kevlar doors for JetBlue?

Chicken #1, newly freed and falling rapidly toward mamma earth, suddenly figured she had best start flapping. Unfortunatley, she failed to note that she had already exceed Vne/Mmo and suffered immediate, severe structural failure of the right wing. Entering a unrecoverable spin, Chicken #1 impacted the ground at warp six. No smell of fuel was found at the crash site.

After confering with our airborne scientists/executioners via unicom, we concluded that a single experiment was not sufficient to verify our hypothesis (or validate our bets). Chicken #2 was prepared for launch.

Upon exit, Chicken #2 fell like the proverbial stone. As it neared the gound, however, it became apparent that Chicken #2 was literate. Simply put, she had obviously read Jonathan Livingston Seagull (vintage Richard Bach, pre-mushy phase) and began a gentle wing extension. Ahh--the sensation of flight... All of us "chickens can too fly" folk were cheering her on--"pull, pull!" was the cry. Ever closer to high speed dirt, Chicken #2 actually pulled out of it's dive, and like an asymptotic curve in math, actually skimmed in ground effect for about 200 feet before entering a stand of trees at about 40 to 50 knots (est).

Nobody had the heart to throw #3 out, since we figured our experiment was becoming too costly for our bird friends. I figured we can chop off their heads and eat them, but throwing them out of a 150 at a grand was just too much.

Howard and CJ landed, with ungenerous tales of feathers, chicken pecks and loud protestations from the about-to-be launched. We stood around in the afternoon dusk, still arguing the answer to our original question, which was evidently not proven either way to anyone's satisfaction.

And then, in the quiet peace of a southern airport at sunset, Chicken #2 walked, somewhat unsteadily, out of the woods and onto the grass. Her first Solo!

The celebration was huge, and #2 was allowed to return to her friends that evening. I'm betting that noneone believed her story, though.

This story is absolutely true, though I cannot vouch for what ultimately happened to #2.

 

[FlyinBrian]

OH my god that's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks for making my cubicle life a little bit more comfortable. Hope to back at work soon!

 

[prodigal]

chickens

Hey Flip,
That is a hilarious story, all the more so since I grew up in the Greasy G myself (now live in CLT). I can kinda envision the whole thing.
From your avatar I assume you are a state college man. Being a Carolina grad I can now see that that old saw about the difference between culture and agriculture being 30 miles is true. (For all you non-North Carolinians that's the distance between UNC and NCSU). Just kidding! Great story.
Let's chat sometime by private message, maybe we've crossed paths.
Fly safe.

 

[leardvr]

Flying Cats

Now this isn't as funny as the chiken man but this is good.

In Beaver County, PA KBVI there is Moore Aviation. Now Ms. Moore is an OLD lady who LOVES her cats. She loves her cats so much that in the winter, with the nice heated hangers, her cats get up into the airplanes when they're left open.

Just like other small animals cats can't equilize the PSI in their head. (I think you can see where this is going)

On day a friend of mine takes off with a student to do his first cross country. The student preflights the aircraft in the hanger.

During cruise flight in the roomy and comfortable C-152, moving along at 85kts on a cooled Western PA kind of a day the CFI reaches in back to get a chart and wakes up Mr. puzzy cat.

Mr. puzzy cat is P-ed off and his head hurts. The cat goes nuts and atackes anything it can get its claws on: this includes the interior, CFI, Student, charts and everything else in the plane

Well after a long fight with the cat (that everyone lost except the cat) the CFI gets ahold of this thing and opens the window

Out goes the cat. 5000' to tarra ferma. Cats can't fly!!!

Anyway the CFI turns back and lands; then he runs for his life (Ms. Moore loves her cats). A day or two latter Ms. Moore is looking for Mr. puzzy cat and is asking everyone if they've seen him. Including the CFI, who lied through his bandaids.

God Bless all