FLYi

[atlcrashpad]

What is the latest on Indy? I was at KCAE and it looked like a used CRJ lot. Pretty sad. I hope you guys can pull through. Best of Luck guys.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

That's just the latest batch of RJs leaving the property....along with the latest group of furloughs. I've heard a number of around 30 - 50 gone on December 1. Some of us though, were already on a voluntary furlough.

 

[logolight]

30 furloughs Dec 1st.

 

[Economy101]

stay strong guys!! We're pulling for you! just stay away from gay jets.....

 

[GogglesPisano]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]DATE:21/11/05
SOURCE:Airline Business
Day of reckoning nears for ailing Independence Air
Analysts believe the future of Independence Air is more likely to be liquidation, rather than buyout or asset purchase, as the regional jet operator files for Chapter 11.

Independence Air’s long-awaited bankruptcy may have demonstrated that independence was the last thing that the troubled regional jet operator needed, but the likely liquidation of the low-fares carrier, formerly Atlantic Coast Airlines, stands to benefit the industry.

Months after most observers gave up on its strategy of low fares on frequent 50-seater flights, Independence parent FlyI had lost nearly a half a billion dollars since June 2004, when it ended its Atlantic Coast feeder operation for United Airlines and began Independence. As losses continued, Independence, based at Washington’s Dulles International, tried to recast itself, dumping many of the Bombardier regional jets and adding a dozen Airbus A319s, but could not withstand the response of former partner United and others on the hotly contested East Coast. These competitors had equally low fares on bigger aircraft.

FlyI chief restructuring officer Steve Westberg wrote in a court filing that rivals reacted to its start-up “by matching fares, reducing [ticket] restrictions, offering additional frequent-flyer incentives, increasing advertising”. United alone increased capacity on competing routes by 37%, Westberg wrote.

Many questioned its strategy of using regional jets, noting the type does not lend itself to low-fare economics. With relatively high costs spread over just 50 seats, there is little margin for empty seats, high fuel costs, or strategic error. Independence thought differences in its hi-tech check-in and Southwest-style in-flight service could give it an edge.

When it went into Chapter 11 in early November, Independence was still true to its informal approach, telling the public in advertisements and on its website: “Just this once, we’re going to be like other airlines” and declare bankruptcy. It added: “Basically, the sun will come up tomorrow. It will be ‘business as usual’ at Independence Air.”

But with just $24 million in unrestricted cash, that will not be easy. It has parked 28 of its remaining 58 regional jets, and although it is flying all 12 of its A319s, few see Independence surviving. Claiming it was “maintaining a dialogue” with 30 interested parties, FlyI set an early January deadline for it to sell the carrier as a whole or, if it cannot find an investor, auction its assets.

Most feel its operating certificate is more valuable than its fleet. A sale to a start-up or even foreign-backed investors, such as the long-delayed Virgin America project, may be the best possible outcome. But, many, including Lehman Brothers analyst Gary Chase, think liquidation is likely. Chase believes “the carrier will shrink significantly or cease operations over the next 60 days”.

Calyon Securities analyst Ray Neidl doubts that stronger low-fares airlines such as JetBlue Airways would rescue Independence. Chase says: “As Independence shrinks further, US Airways and AirTran will be the largest beneficiaries.” Within days of the FlyI filing, AirTran said it would strengthen Dulles schedules with four daily roundtrips to Boston Logan from February.

Some investors and analyst Neidl see hope for FlyI if it returns to operations as a codeshare feeder, but former partner United has replaced it and is suing it, and such a development is considered unlikely. FlyI acknowledged in a court filing that “it recognises that, in this challenging industry environment, an investor or buyer may not step forward”. Standard and Poor’s analyst Betsy Snyder says that after years of speculation about airline liquidation, one might finally occur.

DAVID FIELD/WASHINGTON[/FONT]

 

[Turtlesfly]

As one previously hired by ACA but never given a class date (before going elsewhere), I was going to give my 2-cents' worth on this . . .

. . . but then I discovered that FLYI's stock is trading at 2 cents today, so I thought I would say, "I'll give you my 1-share-of-FLYi-stock's" worth . . .

 

[mightybeechdrvr]

Sorry To Hear The Woes at Indy

The management of Indy Air has repeatedly "screwed the pooch" on every front. i.e. refusing to negotiate with United; striking out alone without any real plan of how to succeed; blowing off the Mesa acqusition; never figuring out that United, USAir, Delta, etc. would ever try to compete with you, etc.

The pilots of Indy Air are a fantastic bunch of guys & don't deserve the incompetency that they have had to swallow. Do to a bunch of bloated egos in the board room, hundreds of peoples lives have already been negatively affected with hundreds more in the waiting.

ACA....a once proud airline now reduced to the ash heap of airline history.

Good luck guys!

 

[say again]

The pilots of Indy Air are a fantastic bunch of guys & don't deserve the incompetency that they have had to swallow. Do to a bunch of bloated egos in the board room, hundreds of peoples lives have already been negatively affected with hundreds more in the waiting.

ACA....a once proud airline now reduced to the ash heap of airline history.

Good luck guys!

I agree 100%!!! Good luck guys, hope to run into some you guys in IAD, one last time!!! Bring the 328 back!!!!:beer:

 

[Lancair]

I agree with most of that except blowing off the Mesa buy out. What do you mean by that? Do you think it would have been a good thing to work for JO. I was furloughed and found a much better job. I garauntee it's better than working for $21.00 an hour for JO. All it would have done is keep 2000 guys working for a sh*tty airline. I'm glad we fought off the buy out.

 

[blueridge71]

The management of Indy Air has repeatedly "screwed the pooch" on every front. i.e. refusing to negotiate with United; striking out alone without any real plan of how to succeed; blowing off the Mesa acqusition; never figuring out that United, USAir, Delta, etc. would ever try to compete with you, etc.

Not quite. They were in negotiations for a long time with UAL. We even passed a pay cut TA that was supposed to retain the UAL contract. UAL and Bain Consulting blew us off.

As it turned out, it probably didn't matter, if ACA had signed a deal with UAL, they would probably be in the same boat unless they could cut a deal with another carrier like Air Whisky did. Don't forget that ACA and AWA were sister airlines in the UAX family. Both were screwed over in favor Mesa, Chataqua, and Trans States.

As for the Mesa "deal," that would have been a stock swap that would have resulted in a very unhappy pilot group. There would have been no working with Ornstein.

The big mistake, other than the timing that ACA management had no control over, was, as you say, underestimating the ability of bankrupt companies to outlose Indy on fares.

I personally think that if the timing had been other than when fuel prices were at record highs, you'd probably be reading much different stories about Indy today. As it is, Independence customer service has been rated second only to JetBlue's in several polls.

Anyhow, bids on parts or the whole airline are due around mid-December and the results will be announced in early January.

Good luck to those that remain. Godspeed Independence.

 

[tjsatter]

stay strong guys!! We're pulling for you! just stay away from gay jets.....

Yeah, please stay away from gayjets. The word from inside the puzzle palace is that they are counting on getting a number of Independence guys to meet their staffing problems. Rin out the unemployment and go ANYwhere else first, please.

tj

 

[HawkDrvr]

Yeah, please stay away from gayjets. The word from inside the puzzle palace is that they are counting on getting a number of Independence guys to meet their staffing problems. Rin out the unemployment and go ANYwhere else first, please.

tj

Don't you think the industry is starting to run out of other places to go?

Your post is in incredibly poor taste. Telling these poor ba$tards that are about to loose their jobs, "don't worry about paying your mortgage or feeding your kids, just don't step on my toes!" uke:

Pretty pathetic to be soliciting the support of the newly unemployed.

I'm almost speechless.

 

[KL24]

Don't forget that ACA and AWA were sister airlines in the UAX family. Both were screwed over in favor Mesa, Chataqua, and Trans States.

Yeah, please stay away from gayjets. The word from inside the puzzle palace is that they are counting on getting a number of Independence guys to meet their staffing problems. Rin out the unemployment and go ANYwhere else first, please. tj

So let me get this right. You took some of ACA/FlyI flying and now you're going to tell them they can't take flying that you believe you should have?

More proof why we can't stop the race to the bottom. No unity. Stop preaching unity and standing up against management if it's only going to serve you. That's not unity, that's being as self centered as you perceive anyone at GJ to be.

 

[Mike man]

...over in favor Mesa, Chataqua, and Trans States

Chataqua, who is that? Never heard of them.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

The big mistake, other than the timing that ACA management had no control over, was, as you say, underestimating the ability of bankrupt companies to outlose Indy on fares.

I personally think that if the timing had been other than when fuel prices were at record highs, you'd probably be reading much different stories about Indy today. As it is, Independence customer service has been rated second only to JetBlue's in several polls.

Good post Blueridge71. You beat me to it. I agree. Having lived in the Northern VA for 3 years, believe me, it was ripe for the picking. I remember hearing constantly on the radio and tv how tired people were of having to drive to BWI to get good deals. There was a cry for a "hometown" airline. Unfortunately, the business model was based on $30 a barrel and not $70. Better timing and a little less naive management would have produced better results. I have a lot of good friends still there and I wish them the best. A great group of people, pilots and FAs alike. Man how I miss (most) of those flight attendants.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Good post Blueridge71. You beat me to it. I agree. Having lived in the Northern VA for 3 years, believe me, it was ripe for the picking. I remember hearing constantly on the radio and tv how tired people were of having to drive to BWI to get good deals. There was a cry for a "hometown" airline. Unfortunately, the business model was based on $30 a barrel and not $70. Better timing and a little less naive management would have produced better results. I have a lot of good friends still there and I wish them the best. A great group of people, pilots and FAs alike. Man how I miss (most) of those flight attendants.

That's all true enough. Also, nobody expected UAL to survive much less languish in bankruptcy for 3 years either. If any of this mess was predicted 4 years ago I would not have believed it.

 

[say again]

Don't you think the industry is starting to run out of other places to go?

Your post is in incredibly poor taste. Telling these poor ba$tards that are about to loose their jobs, "don't worry about paying your mortgage or feeding your kids, just don't step on my toes!" uke:

Pretty pathetic to be soliciting the support of the newly unemployed.

I'm almost speechless.

Running out of places to go??? Gimme a break!!!!! There are plenty of jobs out there you just have to search for them. I agree that one should stay away from gay jets. I was furloughrd from Indy and did not think once about going over to gay jets. You're better off collecting uneployment until a better opportunity arises, because one will. Good luck to my fellow Indy friends!!!!:beer: 328 lives on!!!

 

[HawkDrvr]

Running out of places to go??? Gimme a break!!!!! There are plenty of jobs out there you just have to search for them. I agree that one should stay away from gay jets. I was furloughrd from Indy and did not think once about going over to gay jets. You're better off collecting uneployment until a better opportunity arises, because one will. Good luck to my fellow Indy friends!!!!:beer: 328 lives on!!!

Like I said, pretty tasteless... Must be nice to have the benefit of your crystal ball. I can't say that GJ would be anyone's first choice, but it beats unemployment.

Like the other guy said, let me get this straight.

1. United cuts ties with ACA.
2. ACA forced (supposedly) to strike out on its own because they were too expensive.
3. TSA as a result picks up United feed.
4. Former "overpriced" United Express/ACA pilots are now getting ready to hit the street.
5. You now have the balls to tell them to take unemployment rather than go back to flying United feed.

Beautiful guys, beautiful...uke:

YGTBSM !!!

 

[logolight]

Like I said, pretty tasteless... Must be nice to have the benefit of your crystal ball. I can't say that GJ would be anyone's first choice, but it beats unemployment.

Like the other guy said, let me get this straight.

1. United cuts ties with ACA.
2. ACA forced (supposedly) to strike out on its own because they were too expensive.
3. TSA as a result picks up United feed.
4. Former "overpriced" United Express/ACA pilots are now getting ready to hit the street.
5. You have the balls to tell them to take unemployent rather than go back to flying United feed.

Beautiful guys, beautiful...uke:

YGTBSM !!!

You might not believe this but having worked at Independence I can tell you that most of the pilots would actually stand in the unemployment line than go back to United again.

 

[HawkDrvr]

You might not believe this but having worked at Independence I can tell you that most of the pilots would actually stand in the unemployment line than go back to United again.

That's their choice and nowhere did I, nor would I criticize that decision.

What I have a problem with is these chest thumping idiots trying to tell some poor guy that just lost his job what he can or can't do to feed his family/pay the rent. Especially considering the fact that they have (at least in some small fashion) benefited from their demise.

 

[dav8or]

Stick a fork in "EM" they're done. As much as I hate it for the crews, especially those that have been JSing with me, I bet management has a parachute out of the airline they CFIT.

 

[fly5boy7]

ACTUALLY,

For those speaking of Go-Go beating unemployment-

It actually doesn't. I was on unemployment after my ACA/FLYI furlough and DID IN FACT make more money than a first year GO-JET FO. So, I mean, really, not much else to say about that.

Ok, just wanted to throw that out there.
Happy Holidays.

-DK

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Hawkdrvr,

Looks like Flyboy beat me to the punch. I don't believe anyone left at IDE is on less than a 6 year pay scale, and I'm sure unemployment will be better than $22/hr with no overs. By the way, if a company is on strike, are you advocating that furloughed pilots go work there? GJ scumbags are not literally scabs, but what they are doing is equally reprehensible. What about Netjets or Citationshares? Any regional 6 yr FO will get a pay raise on day 1 of new hire class and not be selling out the profession in the process!

 

[blueridge71]

ACTUALLY,

For those speaking of Go-Go beating unemployment-

It actually doesn't. I was on unemployment after my ACA/FLYI furlough and DID IN FACT make more money than a first year GO-JET FO. So, I mean, really, not much else to say about that.

Ok, just wanted to throw that out there.
Happy Holidays.

-DK

I also took a pay cut going from unemployment to 1st year FO at ASA. $19.02 per hour and the chance to be out of a job again before I get a pay raise.

 

[Marko Ramius]

ACA's real problems started when...

Their management overstepped their bounds in early 2002 by taking a hefty rate hike from UAL. To be clear, they were completely within their rights to do so via their contract, however UA management asked for a break considering the circumstances at the time. I believe ACA was the only carrier to take the increase, SkyWest and AirWis both stayed pretty much flat on their rates. If you remember this caused a big runup in ACA's stock price and hiring amid speculation that ACA was going to receive the lion's share of any additional flying in the UAX system due to the economic downturn. ACA management believed it was a shrewd move because they felt that they could capatilize revenue wise on UA downgauging a/c in the downturn which would give them more money when the recovery occurred and UA took some of the flights back to mainline. All the analysts agreed, except one(I don't think it was Boyd this time!), who said the strategy was only solid if UA was able to whether the storm and stay out of BK. Under that scenario, UA would have had to honor it's contract and ACA would have made serious cash. Any other scenario(BK/ATSB loan restrictions,etc) gave UA the opportunity to exact a measure of revenge. At the time, UA interim CEO Jack Creighton said as much internally to the employees about the ACA deal. His comments boiled down to 'We're very dissapointed with their decision, but we don't have a choice here; we need them right now and they have a valid contract with us, however we do intend to rectify the situation going forward." The comments from the guy running the UAX brand(Sean Donahue?) pretty much echoed the same sentiment.

With that setting the stage, is it any wonder the route UA took with ACA after BK? They were tough with everybody, but clearly harder on ACA then their other partners and the BK process made it legal. Management at every airline basically makes it clear that they run the show, you just work here. IMO, this is one of the situations where the ACA/Indy employees should have remembered that. Somewhere in the big RJ expansion phase of the late nineties/early 2000's, people stopped being commuter pilots and started being regional pilots. They flew RJ's now, not unsophisticated airplanes like Jetrstreams, 1900's, ATR's or Brasilia's that they all would have killed to fly two years prior. They flew too exotic second tier Mexican destinations and at off peak times on primarily mainline equipped routes while boasting of being 'all-jet'. A few of the companies attained DOT major status based on the revenues involved. This was all great, and definately something that should have promoted heavily during the numerous contact pushes during that time. Funny how you don't hear much of that these days. Problem was, we were still 'just' commuter pilots, only by the early 2000's most of us were too cool to accept that notion.

Management cares not for jobs, only profitibility and shareholder value. Shifting from economical, less capital intensive turboprops on routes that will never be touched by a major to less economical, capital intensive RJ's on routes that definately needed to be supported by mainline marketing and fee per departure agreements, was simply a matter of increasing profit margin and shareholder value to them. Never mind the fact, that it married their fortunes closely to those of the parent carrier, and effectively closed off the previous revenue streams because the equipment was no longer operated, the slots had been given to RJ's, and there was no where to park the equipment anymore anyway. From the line all the way up to the offices in Herndon, we missed this so when it came time to clean up managements mistakes we simply got mad at bad ol' United/UsAirways/NWA/AMR/DAL, etc. The paycuts ACA/Indy took, the effort to ward off Mesa, were all great employee efforts but they were basically the end game of internal managerial errors with UA and YV cast as the bad guys vs. ACA management. To most pilots 'just commuter pilots,' basically represents the opinions of arogant mainline pilots who either forgot where they came from or were ex-military and thought they were better. As far as the cockpit goes, those connotations have some validity. As far as the business goes though, it means what portion of the industry you work in and should have governed how you went about things as far as contracts, etc go-i.e. look out for your(pilots) interests vs. managements. All ACA really needed was a new CEO/management team to patch things up with UA and their contract would have been more inline with SkyWest's and we may have never seen TSA, CHQ, YV in the UAX system. UA knew that which is why they tried the YV takeover route first(after asking SkyWest to do it first).

A long winded post for sure that's begging to be hammered, but I think this ACA/Indy situation is almost like a watershed event for the current regional industry. As we watch what happens to Mesaba, Comair, ASA, etc I think the history will start with the tale of ACA/Indy.

 

[logolight]

The problem with the contract UAL had proposed for ACA was that, number one, United wanted control over our fleet structure. Which meant that at any time they could chose to park any number of our aircraft for what ever reason and then pull them back in whenever they saw fit. Number two, the contract also included a provision for United to eventualy dismantle ACA over the next 5 year period. So instead of signing our own death warrant the next best thing to do was to try and go out on our own. The timing wasn't great but it was the best opportunity we had at that time. Now Indy is furloughing back to June 2000. Most are moving on to other carriers and the rest are leaving the industry all together for a more stable career.

 

[AWACoff]

Well, if the fit hits the shan...you FLYi guys are always welcome at AWAC. Not much of a consolation I know but we are hiring as fast as we can right now. Attrition is extremely high due to uncommutable schedules but once the pilot shortage is cured, things will get better. I gained 15 #'s last month. That's pretty good considering I'm halfway through the list of 770 pilots.Total attrition per month is about 30. Upgrade is down to about 2.5 years but that will obviously be subject to change. I've been here since June '01 and I still like it...how bad can it be? I wish you guys the best.

AWACoff

 

[Marko Ramius]

Logolight

I agree the contract UA offerred ACA was horrible. From what I saw of it, it was markedly worse than the (substandard) contracts offerred to then current partners of Air Wis and SkyWest. I was getting at the reasons why UA offerred ACA mgmt such a turd, and it was primarily because of a cat fight that erupted between the two managements almost 10 mos. prior to the BK. ACA, not SkyWest, was clearly UA's golden child before that time. It could be argued that UA liked Air Wis better than SkyWest at the time as well-at least for RJ's. UA didn't really want to get rid of ACA, they wanted to get rid of ACA's management. That's the main reason that they were willing to sign a long term deal with Mesa or SkyWest if they took over the ACA assets, but not with ACA management. I think they hoped that either Mesa would win, or if not it would be enough to shake the shareholder/BOD confidence in the mgt. team and effect the change that way. When that failed they tried to starve Indy by delaying it's start as long as possible, hoping for the same result. IMO, if different mgt came in during that time they would have made a deal similar to SkyWest's. Heck, they even floated the idea of ACA returning to UAX when things went badly for Indy, figuring the point was made to mgt. It's just business to them and all of the other carriers out there. We as pilots are pretty task-oriented/focused. MGT loves to gives us a little info and box us into two decisions. We grumble about it, and then generally do what they ask of us. Rarely do we ask what the other options are at more than a conversational level(flightinfo, etc). In the ACA/Indy situation the crux of the problem occurred long before the contract offer and the Bain group. ACA ALPA had another option to Mesa; turn the focus of that public campaign on the actual problem-ACA management and see if they could force the shareholders/BOD to get someone in there to fix the situation and get a more realistic deal with UAL. As a regional airline, that would have made far more sense than Indy, to almost everyone except ACA management whose interests it obviously doesn't benefit. Or come up with a candidate for the job. TWA was able to do it keep Lorenzo out(just don't pick Icahn!), UA got rid of Ferris/Wolf. It's just an opinion, I think these times are our version of the 80's and we have to learn/understand what we did right and wrong to be better prepared going forward.

 

[smellthejeta]

In many different arenas, I keep hearing "What about the shareholders?" "The shareholders got screwed!" My sincere opinion on that is that the shareholders failed to put pressure on the BOD to oust management. That's an issue NOBODY wants to touch -- that the shareholders and BOD are just as culpable as Skeen et al.

 

[crxpilot]

The gas could have been free, they still would have lost money.