Fly the runway heading...

[UnAnswerd]

I'm not sure if this is standard procedure, but my airport has you fly the runway heading for TRSA service. My question is, what happens if your destination is like 180 degrees opposite the active runway??? Or for that matter, even a few degrees??? Why do they have you fly the runway heading, and for how long do you have to????

 

[Piper877]

They usually have you do that for awhile probably for spacing then they'll tell you to "Climb on course" and send you on your way after you're above the traffic pattern/airspace.

 

[Illini Pilot]

they will still have you on the rwy hdg or with 10-20 degrees of it, then eventually vector you towards your desired radial or heading

 

[UnAnswerd]

Thanks for clearing that up. While we're on it, does anyone recommend saying "negative TRSA" upon contacting ground control???

 

[mattpilot]

I'm not sure if this is standard procedure, but my airport has you fly the runway heading for TRSA service. My question is, what happens if your destination is like 180 degrees opposite the active runway??? Or for that matter, even a few degrees??? Why do they have you fly the runway heading, and for how long do you have to????

You could always decline TRSA service and go your own way once your outside their airspace... MUWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... oh wait, i hear thats not recommended

But you still could if it pisses you off that your going the wrong way

 

[Pugh]

On a similar note, when they say "mainatain runway heading", they do mean heading, and not track, correct? Are you still obligated to maintain a safe track so as not to penetrate a parallel runway?

 

[mattpilot]

On a similar note, when they say "mainatain runway heading", they do mean heading, and not track, correct? Are you still obligated to maintain a safe track so as not to penetrate a parallel runway?

During IFR, they expect you to fly the heading, because all other aircraft in the control zone are on a heading and the controller already factored in wind. You can't go about correcting for the wind yourself and cause a collision hazard.


As for VFR, you are expected to fly the track, but ONLY on departure from the runway. All other times the controller already factored in wind correction. Example: If you have a L & R runway and wind is pushing you into the other runways departure track, you are going to cause problems.

 

[Bernoulli]

I've seen Class Bravo VFR departure procedures that say to fly runway heading and there are parrallel runways... so do you fly the heading or do you fly the track so you don't drift over to the parallel runway?

 

[midlifeflyer]

During IFR, they expect you to fly the heading, because all other aircraft in the control zone are on a heading and the controller already factored in wind. You can't go about correcting for the wind yourself and cause a collision hazard.

As for VFR, you are expected to fly the track, but ONLY on departure from the runway. All other times the controller already factored in wind correction. Example: If you have a L & R runway and wind is pushing you into the other runways departure track, you are going to cause problems.

Good point, Bernoulli. Let's picture this:

Parallel runways 27L and 27R are in use. Winds are 180 at 16 kts. A VFR flight is ready for takeoff on 27R; and IFR flight is ready on 27L. Both are cleared for takeoff with the instruction "fly runway heading". The VFR flight tracks the runway; the IFR flight flies the heading.

Oops!

Matt, what's your basis for saying that "fly runway heading" means anything other than to put the runway numbers on the HI and fly in that direction based on whether the flight is under VFR or IFR? The Pilot/Controller Glossary from the AIM and ARC Handbook just says:

==============================
RUNWAY HEADING - The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number. When cleared to "fly or maintain runway heading," pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied; e.g., Runway 4, actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline 044, fly 044.
==============================

Do you have some other reference?

 

[nosehair]

My 2 cents: I know you are supposed to fly the heading, and I usually do, but in VFR conditions in very strong crosswinds, I track a little. I know from experience that the controllers sometimes don't factor in winds until they see you have drifed significantly. So, for my own safety, I throw in some crab, and wait.

Keep in mind that everybody, including controllers, make mistakes and sometimes get overloaded and it is up to all of us to work together. If you can see you are drifting into another runway or near obsticles, it is your resposibility to correct.

 

[bobbysamd]

RY heading and TRSAs

I'm not sure if this is standard procedure, but my airport has you fly the runway heading for TRSA service. My question is, what happens if your destination is like 180 degrees opposite the active runway??? Or for that matter, even a few degrees??? Why do they have you fly the runway heading, and for how long do you have to????

I didn't know that TRSAs are still around. Aren't they now known as Class C airspace?

In any event, if you have departed on Runway 17, fly a heading of 170. ATC may be asking you to do so for many reasons, probably until it has radar contact on you and/or for spacing purposes. Pretty soon, it'll clear you to "turn on course."

Finally, do not decline radar service. Aside from ATC knowing who you are and where you are, it'll generally point out traffic. In addition, learning how to talk with ATC and using radar services establishes an excellent communications foundation for your instrument training later.

 

[Sc00ter]

Come on guys. Fly runway heading is runway heading. Not "throw some track in 'cause I think it's a good idea". How many other times are ATC instructions up for interpretation?

It doesn't matter if you have parallel runways or not. If you are drifting while flying runway heading, so is the other guy on the parallel. Would you change up some holding instructions? ATC has the big picture and is counting on you to be reliable and to go where they told you to go. Otherwise things have the potential to get ugly.

Here's a scenario for you...

You take off on the downwind runway and track when told to fly heading. The upwind aircraft complies with the "runway heading" assignment. The tower SUP just so happens to be taking a coffee break and decides to hover over tower control and notices the reduction in separation. Guess who gets the violation? Maybe not at podunk, USA but try that stunt at Newark.

Hope that gets you thinking,

scoot

 

[mattpilot]

Matt, what's your basis for saying that "fly runway heading" means anything other than to put the runway numbers on the HI and fly in that direction based on whether the flight is under VFR or IFR? The Pilot/Controller Glossary from the AIM and ARC Handbook just says:

Basis being my experience. Here at RVS, they always tell you Runway heading, and they often have 2 aircraft depart simultaneously from 2 runways (19L, 19R). I got a few unpleasent "schoolings" from the tower because i drifted in the other guys path. I usually came back with "i'm on the runway heading", and the towers usual retort was to maintain runway centerline - thats after i've taken off and was told to fly runway heading.

Other than that, no basis. Not saying its correct, but that's what was drilled into me.

I didn't know that TRSAs are still around. Aren't they now known as Class C airspace?

There is one in SW oklahoma and one in western arkansas over fort smith. I'm sure there are more.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I didn't know that TRSAs are still around. Aren't they now known as Class C airspace?.

Nope. Some TRSA airspace was upped to Class C others remain as TRSA.

 

[nosehair]

It doesn't matter if you have parallel runways or not. If you are drifting while flying runway heading, so is the other guy on the parallel. Would you change up some holding instructions? ATC has the big picture and is counting on you to be reliable and to go where they told you to go. Otherwise things have the potential to get ugly.


scoot

A 172 wind drift angle in strong winds is much, much larger than a high-speed aircraft. They are not drifting at the same angle.

If my climb speed is 70 with a 35 knot crosswind = a 45 degree off course track.

I am not as concerned about who gets the violation as I am about who gets hit or flies into an obsticle.

No, controllers do not always have the big picture.

 

[ArcticFlier]

I believe kpsp is still a TRSA. I think there is one other in the US(maybe more)


AF

 

[Lilah]

Beaumont TX, has a TRSA.

How about runway track while over the runway (still on takeoff), and then heading after passing the departure end?

Lilah


PS. And for bonus points, what are the visibility and cloud clearance requirements, and speed limits in a TRSA?

 

[mattpilot]

The best i can come up with about the runway heading vs runway track is 4-3-3 after giving it a quick look.


They have a figure there about parallel runway operation. Depicted is a 'No transgression zone" with the following description: "Do not continue on a track which will penetrate the departure path of the parallel runway."


Other than that, the only thing else i can think of at the moment is that you are required (or suggested) to fly a rectangular traffic pattern. This involves crabbing into the wind on all legs of the pattern - including the upwind leg. If i remember correctly, being able to fly a rectangular course with wind correction was a PPL requirement.

 

[User546]

Come on guys. Fly runway heading is runway heading. Not "throw some track in 'cause I think it's a good idea". How many other times are ATC instructions up for interpretation?

That's what I love about FlightInfo! You take something so basic and simple, and after about 10 or 20 posts, you have the most sophisticated, over-thought, too complicated-to-understand answer!

 

[O-Line]

Know your surroundings!

It’s real important here to know your surroundings. At LAX most of the IFR departures state “Fly runway heading till the shoreline (or SMO radial)”, with 4 parallels if everybody flies the same heading they should track the same way.

On the other hand, I saw some poor guy get violated the other day. He was very unfamiliar with SDL and departed VFR on 21. SDL tower told him “cleared for takeoff, maintain runway heading, reference traffic just taking off.” So this poor old guy in a Bonanza flew the runway heading right out of the Class D and a few miles later right into the PHX Class B, and the while maintaining runway heading.

 

[DrewBlows]

A 172 wind drift angle in strong winds is much, much larger than a high-speed aircraft. They are not drifting at the same angle.

If my climb speed is 70 with a 35 knot crosswind = a 45 degree off course track.

I am not as concerned about who gets the violation as I am about who gets hit or flies into an obsticle.

No, controllers do not always have the big picture.

A jet climbs faster and at a much greater rate than a 172. The jet will be long gone by the time the cessna has a chance to drift in it's way. Even if the jet departs after the offending 172 it's climb gradient is much larger so it will cross above the cessna.

 

[mattpilot]

I'd review 4-3-2

 

[midlifeflyer]

We're really talking about two different things here.

1. "Fly runway heading" is an instruction with a very specific meaning.

2. Obeying an ATC instruction gives way to operating considerations, safety, and, as nosehair suggested, not hitting anything.

I like Lilah's comment about keeping track until past the departure end. never mind drift, but there's also a good chance that until a certain altitude, runway to the side of you is almost as useful as runway behind you.

 

[dmspilot00]

I didn't know that TRSAs are still around.

There are plenty of them.

 

[bobbysamd]

TRSA google

There are plenty of TRSAs.

While I don't doubt any of you, I have found only a few by googling. Fairbanks, Alaska has one. This NTSB report, referencing a 2000 incident, states that PSP is one of the few remaining TRSAs. Apparently, there was also a TRSA at Nantucket, according to this AOPA letter. This FAQ states that after September 16, 2003, TRSAs would either be Class C or Class D airspace.

Apparently, there are still a few TRSAs. About fifteen years ago, the FAA moved swiftly to convert many of them into ARSAs, which then became Class Cs.

 

[dmspilot00]

While I don't doubt any of you, I have found only a few by googling.

There are five on my current Detroit sectional alone:

Erie, PA
Harrisburg, PA
Youngstown, OH
Elmira, NY
Saginaw, MI

So there are actually quite a few. Certainly if there are this many on one sectional there are more, unless they are only popular in the Northeast.

 

[DrewBlows]

This FAQ states that after September 16, 2003, TRSAs would either be Class C or Class D airspace.

The TRSA's I'm familiar with (AZO, MKG) are class D. If you look at a sectional you can see the class D boundry and the TRSA boundry.

 

[Huggyu2]

Answer to trivia question: without looking it up, I'd say there are no additional restrictions to operating in a TRSA. It isn't Class C, so those don't apply. If you enter the tower's Class D, those rules would apply.
So why do they still have TRSA's? They seem to be a purely advisory piece of airspace, but no one seems to really care about them. What gives?

 

[dmspilot00]

Answer to trivia question: without looking it up, I'd say there are no additional restrictions to operating in a TRSA. It isn't Class C, so those don't apply. If you enter the tower's Class D, those rules would apply.
So why do they still have TRSA's? They seem to be a purely advisory piece of airspace, but no one seems to really care about them. What gives?

If you contact the tower of a Class D airport inside a TRSA, they will just tell you to contact approach, which will give you a transponder code and radar service. Flying into an airport in a TRSA is much like flying into a Class C airport from a communications perspective, but without all the rules and regulations that accompany class C. The boundaries are defined more by how powerful their radar is.

Basically these pieces of airspace aren't busy enough to warrant Class C, but too busy to be simple Class D.

Although the controllers might not be to happy with you if you manuever around inside a TRSA without contacting them, it's perfectly legal.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Runway heading unless you have a crosswind greater than 23 (or 32 knots **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** dyslexia!) Then you need to get clarification from tower on heading or track, etc. Runway heading with less than those winds will keep you in the departure corridor until a certain altitude (not sure exactly but 1500' pops to mind). At higher winds you will be blown out of the corridor before getting to the prescribed altitude, thus ask for clarification.

If tower is sqauwking at you because on a VFR day you drifted close to someone then start looking outside, even on IFR if youre in VMC, SEE AND AVOID!