FLOPs Furloughing????

[Guitar Guy]

Its called a Letter of Agreement. It would just be negotiatied and stapled to the back of the CBA. Happens all the time.

Obviously, they would interview and pick the applicants they want.
I'm saying that through a LOA, NJA could set a pref hiring program with conditions...i.e. the applicant would have to be current and qualified on a NJA aircraft, hold a Class 1 Medical and CANPASS authorization, be current on the 12500 security program, etc. If so, then these pilots could be authorized home basing upon hiring. Trust me, if the NJA MEC had half a brain, they'd go after this deal like a marlin after squid.

Gotta call "bollocks" on this one, Ace. Our MEC definitely wants HBA for everyone on the seniority list. And trust me, the MEC does have much more than "half a brain". Few people thought the HBA portion of the CBA was fair or a good idea. But as with any large agreement, the CBA had good and bad points. The HBA issue was quite clearly one of the bad points.

It's up to the management at NetJets now to decide what it wants to do with HBA. But I don't believe that you'd find the MEC accepting a deal that excludes all post-ratification new-hires from the HBA except for folks from FLOPS. Where's the carrot for the union to accept a deal like that? And where's the fairness to the other post-ratificiation new-hires? Why should one pilot get HBA just because he/she worked for FLOPS while another pilot came from a different company and must use a domicile?

As for the FLOPS pilots having all of your credentials, what's your point? Are you suggesting that training would be reduced for them? They'd still have to go through company indoc and they'd still be sent to the training vendors for type training. So while a FLOPS pilot would definitely have experience in fractional operations, the company would train them just as they do new-hires from other sources. Even pilots being assigned to a fleet here in which they are already current and qualified are sent to the training centers in order to acclimate to NetJets procedures and profiles.

Trust me, I feel for you pilots at FLOPS. But don't go characterizing the 1108 MEC as having "half a brain". After all, those same folks helped to get your fellow pilots union representation.

Best of luck to you, Ace, but try to be rational in this situation and watch the name-calling.

 

[Ultra Grump]

^^^What he said.^^^

However, being "sent to the training centers in order to acclimate to NetJets procedures and profiles" is a waste in my opinion, since I have yet to go to a training center where the instructors had any clue about our procedures or profiles. Had to learn those in IOE.

 

[Guitar Guy]

^^^What he said.^^^

However, being "sent to the training centers in order to acclimate to NetJets procedures and profiles" is a waste in my opinion, since I have yet to go to a training center where the instructors had any clue about our procedures or profiles. Had to learn those in IOE.

I agree with you on that one, the FSI instructors are, for the most part, nice people but have no clue about our actual procedures. But you can imagine that the company doesn't believe that to be the case. After all, they send them a copy of the SOP's once in a great while...

 

[be-400xpdriver]

I'm actually kind of surprised that NJA hasn't offered some kind of deal to FLOPS folks. We're all typed and rated in an aircraft they fly, all are CANPASS and TSA cleared, familiar with fractional flying, etc. If NJA offered home basing to the bottom half of the FLOPS seniority list, it would be a race for the exits. Honestly, it would probably shut FLOPS down because there would be no one left to fly the airplanes. The best case scenario would be NJA getting that pool of talent at pennies on the dollar, and FLOPS forced to spend 40k plus to replace each pilot. It would probably put them out of business on training and charter costs alone.

I imagine there is some gentleman's agreement in place to forestall wholesale pilot poaching.

Why would NJA want to hire FLOPS pilots? It would be kinda like Nordstroms hiring Walmart employees just because they were layed off. Yeah the walmart employees can run a cash register and put clothes in a sack but it takes more than that.

 

[Chewbacca]

Why would NJA want to hire FLOPS pilots? It would be kinda like Nordstroms hiring Walmart employees just because they were layed off. Yeah the walmart employees can run a cash register and put clothes in a sack but it takes more than that.

Wow, what a jackass...

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Why would NJA want to hire FLOPS pilots? It would be kinda like Nordstroms hiring Walmart employees just because they were layed off. Yeah the walmart employees can run a cash register and put clothes in a sack but it takes more than that.

...like more Vaseline? Is that what it takes? I would hardly call that contract "Nordstroms" or compare Flops pilots to "Wal-Mart," unless, of course there were some deep down resentments in your own little head from when Flops pilots were paid far more than NetJets until quite recently, and until the Raytheon behemoth took over, were treated very well for quite some time. Now the tables are reversed (for right now, just in any aspect of the industry...remember when United wasn't thought of as a bottom of the barrel airline?), and now you are able to make such trailer trash type of comments? Flops pilots are going through now only what Net Jets dealt with for the past several years...and they are both FRACTIONALS, so I hardly get where your pseudo-hierarchy is coming from other than your itty bitty little 'member'. Lose the trailer park ghetto-snob attitude...you DRIVE people in a Beechjet, not own one,...it is apparent you need to make that distinction. The management of BOTH companies is total trash, and holding the pilots of each to low class qualities of the management, would be like someone thinking all pilots are like you. :::shudder:::
Now go dump your lav and grow up....and we'll promise not to call you Wal-Mart in a couple of years

 

[hammer2]

I really wish the best to you guys at flops. For those who stick it out good luck. I hope you get everything you ask for. For those who are jr.(fo) you got 3 other fracs to go to. The upgrade time will be shorter than if were to stay. Anyway good luck, wish you guys the best.

 

[minimums]

Wow, what a jackass...

I second that. He'll go far in live with that attitude.

 

[gunfyter]

I think NJ would like to hire FLOPS pilots. As long as they want to live in CMH or LAX.

There is no way they could afford all the grievance monies they would have to pay if they let new hires live where they want while forcing other to live at domiciles.

 

[netjetwife]

I agree with you guys. The Walmart remark was ugly and uncalled for. Obviously, Ace is just feeling the strain of the situation that is taking place at Flt Ops right now. That's understandable. We all dream about a way out of the mess we're in when we feel stuck. For some of the NJ pilots it was the thought of Santulli charging in on a white horse to save the company from Boisture. Yes, he finally showed up....after the contract was signed.

Let's hope the other 3 domiciles are offered again soon, as well. I know a number of the pilots who post here are waiting on DAL and living your life in limbo is very difficult.

Like Hammer, I want to wish the Options pilots and their families good luck and encourage them to hang in there. As Voice pointed out, the NJ pilots went through some dark days of their own. I like to think that most of them view your situation with empathy and wish you well. I certainly do. I know how discouraging an uphill battle can be, but giving up is even worse.
Best Wishes,
Netjetwife

 

[RNObased]

Its called a Letter of Agreement. It would just be negotiatied and stapled to the back of the CBA. Happens all the time.



Obviously, they would interview and pick the applicants they want.
I'm saying that through a LOA, NJA could set a pref hiring program with conditions...i.e. the applicant would have to be current and qualified on a NJA aircraft, hold a Class 1 Medical and CANPASS authorization, be current on the 12500 security program, etc. If so, then these pilots could be authorized home basing upon hiring. Trust me, if the NJA MEC had half a brain, they'd go after this deal like a marlin after squid.



Raytheon couldn't care less about us. They'd just make a deal to have NJA bought another 50 Horizons. Trust me, we'd (FLOPS) be cut loose in a second if RAC thought they could sell another hundred airplanes. We're the stepchild of the Raytheon family. Plus, NJA could use the threat as leverage. The only reason FLOPS exists now is to maintain the value of Beechjets and Hawkers on the used aircraft market. If we sink, RAC couldn't sell another 800xp or Bjet for 5 years. Though, what would probably happen is that the airplanes would go in ones and two to various dog-bollocks 135 operators that broker through Sentient. I'm sure Raytheon would give them a heck of a deal.

Dude the MEC at NJA doesn't do the hiring ..... So saying they should bite on some great idea of yours is crazy. By the way, the MEC does have more then half a brain.

If they tried a LOA just for you guys it would blow up in their face... Not going to happen.....

If I was in your shoes, I would be worried about the Raytheon Quarterly Report due out today.. That is going to be a true test....

 

[learflyer]

Not going to be any layoffs. they are just trying to find a way to integrate all of the retiring fleet pilots into the current fleet (finding training slots and all). this freakin internet gets everyone all worked up. flops will survive. This company just keeps going and going and going and going and screwing up and going and going and hemmoraging money and going and going and going..................I thought this place was gonna tank about 2 years ago! and going and going and going............

 

[netjetwife]

As long as frac companies can balance their budgets on the backs of the pilots they will have no incentive to control waste and run the company efficiently. Underpaying the pilots gives them lots of leeway. Now that NJ is paying most of the pilots fairly they're finally talking about costs and looking for ways to get a grip on waste that has gone unchecked for years. Unions can be the push in the right direction for management teams that otherwise will go on and on wasting money and operating with little accountability...over and over...because they can easily afford to. Make them pay professional wages and then they will get serious about efficiency. Or you can keep letting them make adjustments the easy way---out of your crew meals, benefits, and stagnant wages. NJW

 

[Apeman]

"Unions can be the push in the right direction for management teams that otherwise will go on and on wasting money and operating with little accountability...over and over...because they can easily afford to. Make them pay professional wages and then they will get serious about efficiency. Or you can keep letting them make adjustments the easy way---out of your crew meals, benefits, and stagnant wages. NJW"


This is probably the most sensible thing I have yet to read on Flightinfo.com. Now if we can just get the group to act as one, and obviously the sooner the better. I wonder how many people that chose not to vote then, would change and vote now?

 

[netjetwife]

There will always be that (hopefully small) minority that has to be saved from themselves. Some are either too fearful or to selfish to do what is best for the group. Rest assured they, too, will be thankful for a fair contract.

Yes, I've known of pilots to rue the day they cast their vote. We saw that when the NJ pilots were still in 284. Those who wouldn't see the writing on the wall changed their tune when it became a flashing neon sign... The good news is that once the group starts coming together and moving with purpose, more of those who weren't convinced in the beginning will finally get with the program.

Thanks for the compliment, AM. I think I'm more reasonable/moderate than some here give me credit for being. I'm all for professional sounding, sharply dressed crews that can make compromises when they're justified and work jointly with the company to increase efficiency. I just insist that they be treated with respect and compensated like the professionals they are. I think frac management teams have had it all their way for entirely too long. It's just common sense--the winning teams are those that work best together.