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Flightworks in atlanta Info.
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Space Wrangler
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The "new" D.O., who was a guy from Diamler-Chrysler resigned a year to the day after taking the job b/c he couldn't get sheeit accomplished.....yesterday when we didn't call you was your day off.....pay is not great 28k for a citation F.O.....I will say that maint is pretty good....a couple of cowboys flying the line.....citations, hawkers, gulfstreams, falcons.....enjoy the kool-aid.
Avior Technologies Operations, Inc. d/b/a FlightWorks
500 Town Park Lane
Suite 145
Kennesaw, GA 30144
770.422.7375
Scott Beale, President
Avior Technologies Operations, Inc. d/b/a FlightWorks
500 Town Park Lane
Suite 145
Kennesaw, GA 30144
770.422.7375
Scott Beale, President
johnpeace
#199 of 201
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- Nov 17, 2003
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- 841
This guy (AirWolf) who works there presently has a different take on it:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=34211&page=1&pp=15&highlight=airwolf
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=34211&page=1&pp=15&highlight=airwolf
AirWolf's take is based on A. He is new to the company and B. He is in the GIV. If you want a realistic assessment of the organization you need to talk to a citation 500 series pilot or a GII pilot. They make up the majority of the pilot group and I would say that they would have a different view. That's just my opinion after being there for 15 months. Now if you can get Jacksonville, the GIV program or the hawker program then life is significantly better.
O.K. now that I have a little time I thought I would clear up some inaccuracies in your post. Let me begin by saying it is admirable that you want to stick up for your company. I know the feeling, I did the same thing. However that being said the start of this post was for some accurate information on FlightWorks so an individual can make an informed decision on whether to apply there or not.
A. The D.O. is moving to JAX to "just fly". From my understanding he came out of retirement and only intended to be the D.O. for a short time from the start. And he accomplished a lot, despite the problems caused by a previous D.O. with moral and attitude.
The above is partially true. The current DO retired from Diamler Chrysler and came in because the other DO was removed for cause. The interim DO that you talk about making morale problems was the pride of FWorks management until just recently since he has now taken another job. So now management paints him as being the problem and having an attitude. It's funny how that happens when you no longer do their bidding.
B. Your quote about "yesterday when we didn't call you was your day off" is a crock. I don't know when you were here, but it is not that way now. VERY, VERY far from it! They track all days that we are on call, and it is reported in monthly format to Standards. Every day that you were on duty, and what times. NO ONE IS ON CALL FOR OVER 14 HOURS, PERIOD.
The making your current day a "soft day off" about half way through the day is still alive and well. Just ask a citation guy how this works. You see you have a different view from the GIV program. Yes all days are tracked and if you check the GII/ Ce-500 guys you will see that most are not getting their five hard days off a month. Some times it comes close to the 13 in a quarter. As for on call for 14 hours at a time it happens quite often in the GII program. The program is built for 12 hour on call shifts with a two hour overlap available on each side if necessary. Also the CE-500 guys have 1 hour from call to report to the airport and the GII guys have 30 minutes from call to report. A far cry from your call out periods.
C. Yes I am new, and yes I am in a great aircraft (G4), but I have also been out in the "real world of 135", and the operation, schedule, and way of life is far superior to any experinece I have had in the past. A lot of people don't realize how good they have it until it's gone. Also, from my point of view if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. If there is something that you don't like, instead of bitching on a board, do something about it! The prospects and growth here are tremendous, and Scott's attitude about his employees and the company are a rare atribute that many Pres. don't have! I am not trying to pick a fight, but if you want something to change, do something about it! If you can't change things by yourself for the better, ask me, I'll help.[/QUOTE]
I agree with being part of the solution unfortunately sometimes the only course of action is to leave so that you can still look at yourself in the mirror when your shaving in the morning. If someone can get in the GIV program, Hawker program or anything out of JAX then I would suggest FlightWorks is for them. Any other program and you may be wondering about your decision to join the FWorks team.
A. The D.O. is moving to JAX to "just fly". From my understanding he came out of retirement and only intended to be the D.O. for a short time from the start. And he accomplished a lot, despite the problems caused by a previous D.O. with moral and attitude.
The above is partially true. The current DO retired from Diamler Chrysler and came in because the other DO was removed for cause. The interim DO that you talk about making morale problems was the pride of FWorks management until just recently since he has now taken another job. So now management paints him as being the problem and having an attitude. It's funny how that happens when you no longer do their bidding.
B. Your quote about "yesterday when we didn't call you was your day off" is a crock. I don't know when you were here, but it is not that way now. VERY, VERY far from it! They track all days that we are on call, and it is reported in monthly format to Standards. Every day that you were on duty, and what times. NO ONE IS ON CALL FOR OVER 14 HOURS, PERIOD.
The making your current day a "soft day off" about half way through the day is still alive and well. Just ask a citation guy how this works. You see you have a different view from the GIV program. Yes all days are tracked and if you check the GII/ Ce-500 guys you will see that most are not getting their five hard days off a month. Some times it comes close to the 13 in a quarter. As for on call for 14 hours at a time it happens quite often in the GII program. The program is built for 12 hour on call shifts with a two hour overlap available on each side if necessary. Also the CE-500 guys have 1 hour from call to report to the airport and the GII guys have 30 minutes from call to report. A far cry from your call out periods.
C. Yes I am new, and yes I am in a great aircraft (G4), but I have also been out in the "real world of 135", and the operation, schedule, and way of life is far superior to any experinece I have had in the past. A lot of people don't realize how good they have it until it's gone. Also, from my point of view if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. If there is something that you don't like, instead of bitching on a board, do something about it! The prospects and growth here are tremendous, and Scott's attitude about his employees and the company are a rare atribute that many Pres. don't have! I am not trying to pick a fight, but if you want something to change, do something about it! If you can't change things by yourself for the better, ask me, I'll help.[/QUOTE]
I agree with being part of the solution unfortunately sometimes the only course of action is to leave so that you can still look at yourself in the mirror when your shaving in the morning. If someone can get in the GIV program, Hawker program or anything out of JAX then I would suggest FlightWorks is for them. Any other program and you may be wondering about your decision to join the FWorks team.
Now that I have time..
Let's get some things straight. You USED to work here, so you do not know how it works now. Yes, the Citation guys do fly a lot, but their worst schedule is 7 and 7 until we get crew in HEF. Venture to say that 99% of charter and corporate would KILL to get 7 and 7! Yet, there are still people who complain that 7 and 7 is too rough a schedule. The Citations are flying a lot. We just added three crewmembers this week. And when I say flying a lot I mean that they do a lot of out and backs, occasionally some two to three day trips, but everyone is home a lot more than they are away! We are pilots, you know. This is a FLYING job. No, this is not an airline, so guess what, we don’t have airline schedules. Yes, you are correct that the GII pilots are on call for 12 hour shifts. These are the same pilots that are complaining that they are not flying enough, and they are on call AT HOME! If you want an airline way of life as you apparently did, quit and go fly for an airline. A good comparison that was given about FlightWorks vs. an airline like DAL; You are out in the middle of the ocean on a small boat and the Titanic comes by and asks if you would like to come on board. Apparently, you did. That’s fine, and your choice to go for the airline way of life. Again, we never will be an airline so comparing the two is like apples and oranges. People asked my view on FlightWorks, and from the 135 side of the world, this is a great place to be. Pilots are HOME much more than they are away! Of course we have growing pains, every company does. The difference is that everyone here is working to make things better, from the top down. Can you honestly say the same where you are?
Let's get some things straight. You USED to work here, so you do not know how it works now. Yes, the Citation guys do fly a lot, but their worst schedule is 7 and 7 until we get crew in HEF. Venture to say that 99% of charter and corporate would KILL to get 7 and 7! Yet, there are still people who complain that 7 and 7 is too rough a schedule. The Citations are flying a lot. We just added three crewmembers this week. And when I say flying a lot I mean that they do a lot of out and backs, occasionally some two to three day trips, but everyone is home a lot more than they are away! We are pilots, you know. This is a FLYING job. No, this is not an airline, so guess what, we don’t have airline schedules. Yes, you are correct that the GII pilots are on call for 12 hour shifts. These are the same pilots that are complaining that they are not flying enough, and they are on call AT HOME! If you want an airline way of life as you apparently did, quit and go fly for an airline. A good comparison that was given about FlightWorks vs. an airline like DAL; You are out in the middle of the ocean on a small boat and the Titanic comes by and asks if you would like to come on board. Apparently, you did. That’s fine, and your choice to go for the airline way of life. Again, we never will be an airline so comparing the two is like apples and oranges. People asked my view on FlightWorks, and from the 135 side of the world, this is a great place to be. Pilots are HOME much more than they are away! Of course we have growing pains, every company does. The difference is that everyone here is working to make things better, from the top down. Can you honestly say the same where you are?
400A
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2003
- Posts
- 1,760
Re: Flightworks
I have several friends that either currently work or have worked for flight works, I have yet to hear a good report. Hawker guys do not seem to have much of a life.
If you are a corporate operator, DO NOT put your boss on their aircraft!!! Scott Beal will be in touch with your boss very promptly to tell him how he can do it better that you!
I have several friends that either currently work or have worked for flight works, I have yet to hear a good report. Hawker guys do not seem to have much of a life.
If you are a corporate operator, DO NOT put your boss on their aircraft!!! Scott Beal will be in touch with your boss very promptly to tell him how he can do it better that you!
AirWolf said:
from 5/20
AirWolf said:
7 and 7, where did you get that idea. I have been at Flightworks for 4 years and we have never had a 7 and 7 schedule, not on the Citations and especially not now. All we get is 5 days off per month, and I just barely got 13 in the quarter. They have been telling us that they would have a crew hired for KHEF since March. I spent 20 days tdy'ed in KHEF last month with no additional $$, just usual per diem. As far as being home more than away and only occasional 2 or 3 day trips. I was away from home 23 nights in April, 24 in May and 21 in June including a 3-14th stint. As fas as adding 3 crewmembers last week, that was after a week where we lost 2, one of which was the Citation Checkairman/Program Manager. Close to 15 pilots have left the company so far this year. They are leaving faster than we can hire them.
The 4 hour Dom. and 6 hour Intl. call out is only for the GIV. All others it is 1 hour to report to the airport, and one hour to launch. We usually don't find out about our scheduled trips until the night before.
AirWolf said:
That is because they were not given the whole truth before the were hired. They were told they could expect around 20 hrs per month, and there have been many months were guys got 0. They are also at home because they have to be at the airport within 30 minutes.
Sure things have slowly been getting slightly better since the shutdown, and since the change in DO and CP. But the main hold up to change is the top. We have sub standard pay and benefits (47K for Citation Cpt and 27K for FO), and have been promised a change for a year. There have been many job offers given, but not accepted due to this. Airwolf's wife works in the office, and he flies the GIV and so his treatment and perception are going to be different than the rest of the pilot group.AirWolf said:
Must be the rose colored window shades....
Guess I'm way off. I have given my honest perception of the company. That is what people asked for. Apparently my view of the company is not shared by all. I knew that we were short crews on the citations, but I know that they are continuing to hire. I still stand by my statement that this is a much better 135 outfit than 99% out there. I didn't say that we were perfect and that we didn't have places to improve. If you think it's that bad, just ask any EJM crew (past or present) how they are/were treated, and you might form a different opinion about our conditions here. That is not an excuse, just a compairson in the industry. Like I said before, if you don't like something, change it. If you can't do it yourself, ask me, I'll help. You stated that things were getting better with the new DO and CP, and they will continue too. Sorry that things are not changing as fast as you would like, but what exactally are you doing about it? Are you part of the problem, or solution? How would you change things, and who have you given your solutions too? Don't misinterperate my tone, I do not mean this as a mean spirited question. We have a great group of people here, trying to continuously improve things and you can't say that about many of the 135 companies out there. You obviously know who I am so let me know what I can do to help. Just my view from the little corner of the big picture.
Guess I'm way off. I have given my honest perception of the company. That is what people asked for. Apparently my view of the company is not shared by all. I knew that we were short crews on the citations, but I know that they are continuing to hire. I still stand by my statement that this is a much better 135 outfit than 99% out there. I didn't say that we were perfect and that we didn't have places to improve. If you think it's that bad, just ask any EJM crew (past or present) how they are/were treated, and you might form a different opinion about our conditions here. That is not an excuse, just a compairson in the industry. Like I said before, if you don't like something, change it. If you can't do it yourself, ask me, I'll help. You stated that things were getting better with the new DO and CP, and they will continue too. Sorry that things are not changing as fast as you would like, but what exactally are you doing about it? Are you part of the problem, or solution? How would you change things, and who have you given your solutions too? Don't misinterperate my tone, I do not mean this as a mean spirited question. We have a great group of people here, trying to continuously improve things and you can't say that about many of the 135 companies out there. You obviously know who I am so let me know what I can do to help. Just my view from the little corner of the big picture.
rumpletumbler
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 1,209
I would advise to stay away from this place. Looks are deceiving. Plasma screens, new computers, new hangar, etc....Pilots are the neccessary evil here and treated accordingly. Pay is on the low side of 135 scale. Except for the GIV.This is were "Airwolf" hasn't a clue about life at FlightWorks. We know your wife got you the job and you had the pick of the fleet. Fine. We might all do the same. But don't go on and on about how great things are here. If you want to help out, why don't you offer to fly in the citation program (you're typed). Didn't think so. Why not offer to help in the hangar stack (you're a GII pilot) oh yea I'm sorry that's a Galaxy 200. (You've stepped on a few toes that were climbing the stairs to the GIV). Please give more attention to being a "Safety officer" than posting nonsense here.
Hey Heathen
At least I am trying to improve things here, rather than attack a fellow co-worker. Nice personal attacks! Why don't you introduce yourself to me sometime since you obviously know who I am! I'll step on more than your toes!
By the way, the G-IV position was open a while before I came here so why didn't you bid on it if the program is so great and you are so miserable? If you have it so bad, quit!! Otherwise try and help fix things instead of attacking me or shutup! You stated, "We know your wife got you the job and you had the pick of the fleet. Fine. We might all do the same."
A. My qualifications (experience flying and in management) got me the job.
B. If you "might do the same thing" in my case, how can you fault me for it?
I'll put my flying skills up against yours any day.
C. I didn't have the "pick of the fleet", the position was offered.
It is pointless to discuss things with a person like yourself, you would complain no matter where you were. I have offered to try and help, but you obvoiusly have all the answers and don't need it. I know of a ton of pilots that would love to be flying here and glad to have your job. All I hear from you are sour grapes, not solutions.
PS This post has been edited from last night. My first response was not as nice and has no place on this board.
At least I am trying to improve things here, rather than attack a fellow co-worker. Nice personal attacks! Why don't you introduce yourself to me sometime since you obviously know who I am! I'll step on more than your toes!
By the way, the G-IV position was open a while before I came here so why didn't you bid on it if the program is so great and you are so miserable? If you have it so bad, quit!! Otherwise try and help fix things instead of attacking me or shutup! You stated, "We know your wife got you the job and you had the pick of the fleet. Fine. We might all do the same."
A. My qualifications (experience flying and in management) got me the job.
B. If you "might do the same thing" in my case, how can you fault me for it?
I'll put my flying skills up against yours any day.
C. I didn't have the "pick of the fleet", the position was offered.
It is pointless to discuss things with a person like yourself, you would complain no matter where you were. I have offered to try and help, but you obvoiusly have all the answers and don't need it. I know of a ton of pilots that would love to be flying here and glad to have your job. All I hear from you are sour grapes, not solutions.
PS This post has been edited from last night. My first response was not as nice and has no place on this board.
Last edited:
rumpletumbler
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 1,209
O.K. Airpup I was going to let this thread lie but you need to learn to shut your freaking mouth up. First off better people than yourself did try and change the system there at FWorks. Guys that had been there for over a year flying large cabin aircraft did apply for the GIV job and continue to do so. You got the job because the company actively pursued your wife. The GIV position was open because once the company gets someone they try and chain them to a position. Just ask a Citation captain that has been there a lot longer than youself why he hasn't moved to the GIV. Most of us that post here have been doing the job or did the job at FWorks from 1-6 years. Just take your GIV job, call out times and pay rate, and be grateful. Shut your freaking mouth and thank your wife every night. As for this statement "I'll step on more than your toes!" If you would like to make an overt threat to me I'll be more than happy to meet you at the gym with the gloves on for a little exercise. You need to grow up and make an honest assessment on how you got to where you are. Almost everyone in this industry gets a job because of who they know. There are only a select few that are so arrogant that they will say that they were picked over people with 15,000 hours because of their credentials. Enjoy your job.
AirWolf said:
To Dal737fo
First of all my response was to Heathen, not you. I do know who YOU are (and notice I didn't post it). I have spoken with a few of your past co-workers and they said that I would have liked you and we would have gotten along just fine. (I'll PM you with the names so you don't keep accusing me of BS). I respectively agreed to dis-agree with you on a previous post, and after learning about your situation when you were here, you have every right to your opinion. My point is that things are not the same now. Don't take my word for it, ask your friends that are still here. I never said that everything was great for everyone, I just gave my honest opinion from my point of "rose colored view". That being said, I have never posted a personal attack on anyone or tried to "step on" anyone's toes. How is it my fault that they offered a position to me that others wanted and were waiting on? I did't have any idea of the dynamics of the company pre-employment! How could I? All I have offered to do is to try and help where I can, and I will continue to do so even after all of the "flames" that I have gotten from posting MY opinion. If you have a personal problem with me, come and see me about it, don't attack me from a board. I never asked anyone to agree with me, and it's fine that you don't. But you guys keep crossing the line with personal attacks on me and my wife, and that is something that I will not put up with, especially since you don't even KNOW ME! I also like how those attacking me post information on who I am, but hide behind their online "name". If you want to talk over a beer, that would be great. If you keep attacking me and my wife, I'll see you in the "gym". Personally I prefer the "beer", but enough is enough!
This is my last post on the subject. You all know who I am now, so if you have a problem with me or want to discuss this further, have the decency to talk to me in person instead of "flaming" me on a board and calling me names.
First of all my response was to Heathen, not you. I do know who YOU are (and notice I didn't post it). I have spoken with a few of your past co-workers and they said that I would have liked you and we would have gotten along just fine. (I'll PM you with the names so you don't keep accusing me of BS). I respectively agreed to dis-agree with you on a previous post, and after learning about your situation when you were here, you have every right to your opinion. My point is that things are not the same now. Don't take my word for it, ask your friends that are still here. I never said that everything was great for everyone, I just gave my honest opinion from my point of "rose colored view". That being said, I have never posted a personal attack on anyone or tried to "step on" anyone's toes. How is it my fault that they offered a position to me that others wanted and were waiting on? I did't have any idea of the dynamics of the company pre-employment! How could I? All I have offered to do is to try and help where I can, and I will continue to do so even after all of the "flames" that I have gotten from posting MY opinion. If you have a personal problem with me, come and see me about it, don't attack me from a board. I never asked anyone to agree with me, and it's fine that you don't. But you guys keep crossing the line with personal attacks on me and my wife, and that is something that I will not put up with, especially since you don't even KNOW ME! I also like how those attacking me post information on who I am, but hide behind their online "name". If you want to talk over a beer, that would be great. If you keep attacking me and my wife, I'll see you in the "gym". Personally I prefer the "beer", but enough is enough!
This is my last post on the subject. You all know who I am now, so if you have a problem with me or want to discuss this further, have the decency to talk to me in person instead of "flaming" me on a board and calling me names.
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