FlightSafety or PanAm???

[LKRMG]

Hello everyone,

I've narrowed my choice of which academy to attend between FlightSafety in Vero Beach and PanAm in Ft. Pierce. I know FlightSafety has an excellent reputation so I am leaning in this direction but have a question regarding the program structure of each school.

I have a PPL with about 100 hours TT. At FlightSafety, I would go directly to commercial training, then ME, then instrument. The instrument training would be done in a Seminole, which seems to be a positive, leaving me with about 55 hours ME time before starting the CFI programs.

At PanAm, I would start with PIC route, then instrument, then ME (including ME route), then commercial. At this point, I would have a little over 100 hours ME.

My specific questions are this:

1. In terms of training order, which program is better? Is there an advantage in waiting to do instrument last? (Would being a more experienced pilot make instrument training "easier" - For example: a more experienced pilot would be better prepared to handle wind correction in a holding pattern and would be able to concentrate more on the task at hand, which is learning the proper holding pattern procedures, entry, etc.)

2. Is instrument training in a ME a big advantage? Pros/cons?

3. Is the additional 50+ hours of ME time received at PanAm significant?

4. For those of you familiar with the route training at PanAm - I understand the ME route is done with two pilots, one with foggles, the other as safety pilot. Is it a good learning experience (productive) for the safety pilot as well?

Last question!!

5. The aircraft at PanAm are a little newer, better equipped. Big deal or not?

I really would appreciate some feedback, especially concerning the question about the order of training. Like I said, I am leaning towards FlightSafety, but there are a few things about PanAm I like as well (ME time, aircraft, routes).

Thanks!!!

 

[azpilot]

I would go to jetcareers.com and read all the posts on these 2 schools there. Personally I would go to Flight Safety. I have heard many more complaints about Pan Am. Read the posts, visit the schools, and then form your own opinion. Don't believe any of the marketing crap that they will get you a flying job. Focus on achieving your ratings, networking, and then see what happens.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSI

I was an instructor at FlightSafety for a year starting twelve years ago. Not much has changed about the program except it may have improved.

One thing you get from FSI that I have never seen mentioned about Pan Am is you get real spin and unusual attitudes training. FSI started giving that training in Aerobat 152s when I was there. They now use Zlins. Receiving that kind of training early in your flying will give you a great deal of confidence.

The multi portion of FSI's course is indeed a positive. After you've built up your cross-country time in the Cadets you will get your Private Multi. So all multi time thereafter will be PIC. That is a positive. Taking most of your instrument in the Seminoles is also a positive. Absolutely you can earn an instrument rating in any kind of single and then get your multi. It may save money, but I like the idea of integrating all the multi and complex airplane concepts into the training earlier instead of later. Riddle did it the same way.

I don't see much of an advantage to getting instrument later instead of earlier. In fact, you do want to start instrument training very early in your flying so that you learn and build upon these important skills as soon as possible.

I would have mixed emotions about Pan Am having students log multi as safety pilot. Any multi time is significant. It would be a good learning experience because you are immersed in the IFR environment, and it counts as time legally. However, interviewers often look askance at large quantities of multi time built up as safety pilot, so that final 50 of multi could be of doubtful value. If I were paying for that time, I would feel ripped off. I'd look for a program in which I could put the multi time, and money, to good use. Such as earning my initial CFI by doing my CFI-I and MEI in the multi while boring holes to fill the logbook.

Fear not about FSI's aircraft. Maintenance is first rate. I heard sometime back that the school is getting new Seminoles at the rate of one a month.

Finally, try to get some input about Pan Am's customer service skills. Students at large schools walk a fine line, meaning they usually want to work at the school after finishing. They don't want to establish reputations as complainers, but still want to voice concerns. FSI has good skills in that regard.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your choice.

 

[Midnight Mike]

You may want to take a look at this site,


http://www.geocities.com/panamfpr/

 

[Beech1900]

Got the money FSI

 

[Av8trxx]

One persons experience

I got this post on my listserve Email this morning:

"I just wanted to say that I am currently a student at the Pan Am located in Fort Pierce, Florida and I, too, gave them all my money up front for some time building and my CFI. Unfortunately, I am not happy with my training at Pan Am and I would not recommend it. They make a lot of promises that they don't keep, including their promise to hire you as an instructor and their great hiring rate with the regionals. Many of the instructors at this campus have been here for over 2 years, and are still waiting for their "promised interview". This company seems only motivated by financial gain, and not concerned with their student's best intrest. It definately sounds better than it is. I recommend finding a better way to build time. I know I'll be looking for something else as soon as possible.
Good Luck,

XXXX XXXXX(name withheld) *If you want their Email, contact me.

As posted on the ATA thread in the general section-

"There are NO shortcuts. There are no MAGIC schools."

I agree absolutely. In this job market, what 'academy' is going to be next? I could never understand how being in debt an extra $30K more than necessary was worth the 'accelerated' experience anyway. Especially in this climate when jobs are hard to come by and it is going to get worse before it gets better. Especially if AA goes Ch 7 too. How many more students are going to be promised interviews with regionals and shafted??? My vote is to err on the safe side: Do your ratings close to home, have the money saved but pay as you go(!), and by the time you get your qualifications MAYBE the hiring will pick back up by then. Good luck in your endeavors....

 

[northmountain]

As a recently departed flight instructor at FSI here is my perspective. First the good stuff:

1. All their seminoles are new (except for about 5 that are still the old type. That leaves 20 that are no more than about a year old). All the same layout. Dual Garmins, HSI, RMI. Very nice.
2. All the Cadets (Piper Warriors) are all the same and well-maintained. The airframes on these Cadets may be 14 years old, but they don't look more than a few years old. Constantly washed and in maintenance every 60 hours (progressive maintenance). Solo rate is $83.00 or so. Few dollars more than most local FBOs, but the extra 10 bucks/hour is worth it.
3. Maintenance is first rate. I could always find something to complain about, but I'd be hard pressed to find something to complain about with the maintenance side. All the maintenance guys there are happy to answer any questions you may have. I always had an opportunity to ask questions of them (as did my students).
4. The student is the Customer. I know this sounds like marketing hype, but the upper management types live by this.

5. While I hated the CFI standardization, it really helped to keep the standards up. Hope they don't get too lenient on this b/c it helped to weed out the slackers. Great aircraft mean nothing if you don't have excellent instruction. They do a descent job of keeping the standards high.
6. The CFIs get together as a group every two weeks to hit on some training difficulties. I usually got something out of those meetings to pass on to my students.
As an instructor, you'll leave there with over 500-600 hours of multi time. Makes you very marketable.

7. I didn't get much actual time there...but again, it's the location, not an issue with FSI. Dual, they give you the PIC authority to fly and don't hold you back.

8. The spin training in the zlin is excellent.


Some other things to consider:
1. The training schedule is condensed. PPL is short (syllabus calls for 32 hours). Not sure, but I may have had a couple of students who were really ready in that number of hours.
2. Do your pocket a Huge favor. Gemini, Gemini. It's free! You get to sit in on as many flights as you want with other students/instructors. Free instruction!
3. Instrument portion is tough for many students. Remember in that seminole, that for EACH EXTRA flight you're gonna spend an extra $500---heck, that's what I bought my Honda for.
3.5 You definitely could get your instrument cheaper in a single!
3.6 Use the microsoft lab as much as possible. Again, a freebee in a world of insane prices. My best instrument students used the microsoft daily and Gemini'd daily. Doesn't feel a thing like the real aircraft, but it helps your scan/procedures/and flying the needles.
4. This brings me to the insane brief rate that they charge. The brief rate (or dual) is nearly 60 BUCKS an hour. The instructor gets 14 of this. The other $42 goes to FSI. You are paying FSI 1 dollar a minute for the instructor!Then again, the overhead that that campus has is Huge compared to a little FBO. Hop into that Cadet and that 80/aircraft turns into $140. Then again, SOMEONE (that's you) pays for all the briefing rooms, the weather computers, the library, copy machine etc, etc.
5. Figure that your training will be 20 percent higher than what they quoted. This is for ANY flight school.
6. As I said, almost all the aircraft are superb. But, man, those Arrows (which you'll use for your CFI) look like he!!. Structurally and mechanically sound, but they look god-awful.
7. Instructing there after you finish will be tough. They have a waiting list of of 50 instructors and won't be hiring anyone for the next couple of months. Even then, it'll be a slow hiring process. Course, this isn't FSI's fault. Economy is in the crapper.
8. FSI does a good job of networking your resume. That's how I got on with a regional carrier. Watch your back, however. If you instruct there, DO Not leave FSI till the day you are supposed to start ground school at the regional. FSI may not like it, but you have to protect your back, 'cause the minute you give your resignation, there's no turning back.
9. Checkairmen there are not very standardized. Don't get me wrong, they are all good...it's just that some are much tougher than others (perhaps you get this wherever you go).
10. There has been an ongoing rift between the flight line and ground school personnel. In an otherwise extremely professional organization this is out of character. Hope managent sees this.

I think if you check out sites like Jet Careers you'll see very little negative about FSI. You won't hear about them losing their 141 certificate, you won't hear about the FAA violating them, you won't hear about students getting screwed, or still looking for 'guaranteed' interviews ('cause rightfully so, there is no such animal there). And for a school that flies about 100,000 hours a year the accident/incidents are few-to-none----quick someone KNOCK ON WOOD!

 

[B190Captain]

I agree with northmountain,

I too was a graduate of FSI in 1993 and I had a great time. All northmountain says is true and I recommend FSI. I was not an instructor there though so I do not know much about that side of things. I wonder what happened to the Mooneys. They were using M-20K's for the add-on when I was there.

I do not know much about Pan Am but I am sure that FSI's facilities, aircraft, maintenance and staff is top notch with few minor flaws but nobody's perfect. In fact FSI has grown quite a bit since I was there. For me there was no Simulation Center. All that was there before that building was an empty lot. It may be a hefty price tag these days. All I can say is that when I attended it too was expensive but I believe I got every penny's worth.

There was always an aircraft available. There is a sea of aircraft on that flight line. There is a strict, standard syllabus and you do you Commercial, Instrument in one ride in the Seminole. Why do it in a single if your desire is to become a pro?

Flight Safety is a pioneer of flight training and it's a huge company. They train pilots from all over the world and they have been around a long time. I would not have any reservation if I had to give them the money up front.

If you have more questions ask away!!

Good luck in whatever you decide.



Oh and I forgot to mention, you will get a real kick of the spin training. Is McKeever still there? That guy is an animal!!

 

[bobbysamd]

More on FSI

Originally posted by northmountain
All the Cadets (Piper Warriors) are all the same and well-maintained. The airframes on these Cadets may be 14 years old, but they don't look more than a few years old. Constantly washed and in maintenance every 60 hours (progressive maintenance).

All true. The aircraft were new when I was there.

Maintenance is first rate. I could always find something to complain about, but I'd be hard pressed to find something to complain about with the maintenance side. All the maintenance guys there are happy to answer any questions you may have. I always had an opportunity to ask questions of them (as did my students).

I recall that some of the maintenance guys were snippy when you had questions. Maybe there's a different bunch now. The maintenance is absolutely first rate. I do not recall ever losing a flight because of maintenance.

While I hated the CFI standardization, it really helped to keep the standards up. Hope they don't get too lenient on this b/c it helped to weed out the slackers. Great aircraft mean nothing if you don't have excellent instruction. They do a descent job of keeping the standards high.

Ironically, I felt that I didn't receive enough standardization. I went to FSI from ERAU, where many things were overkill. In addition, I worked in stan and eval in the CAP, at Riddle and eventually part-time at FSI. I was always a great believer in standardization. We had great stan in the Alitalia group. Instructors sometimes forget that standardization is a good learning experience for them, too.

Checkairmen there are not very standardized. Don't get me wrong, they are all good...it's just that some are much tougher than others (perhaps you get this wherever you go).

Yes, it's true no matter where you go. I saw it at Riddle, FSI and Mesa.

One final thing to mention, in light of the recent sad school debacle in Orlando, is that FSI is pay-as-you go. But you will have to fork up a big deposit up front. Also, the organization is 100% reputable.

One other thing I'd add, if I haven't already, that some of the quality people whom I knew eleven years ago are still there.

PM if I can help further. In any event, good luck with your decision.

 

[B190Captain]

I knew that you were going to pop in here sometime and put in your 2 cents bobby! LOL!!