Flight Plan Procedure Question

[avbug]

Actually, you pinhead, I didn't. Leave it to tonyc to find a place to take potshots at avbug. Again.

I said nothing about a "stupid pilot." Those would be words you're attempting to put in my mouth. Again.

The original poster did state that he is a student, was uncertain of his actions, and he posted to ask a question. He made an error. Only a "stupid pilot" could miss the extreme irony in the examples given of a controller or briefer who is faced with an unanswerable question. The poster wondered why the briefer may have sounded short with the poster, to wit I posted a reply detailing by example the dillema faced by the briefer, and an explaination as to how to avoid that in the future.

The point of my post was very simple, though I'm really not surprised it was lost on you, Tonyc. The poster should be prepared with the basics to file that flight plan when he calls the briefer or a controller as the case may be, and he'll find that things go much more smoothly. Instead of him seeing the briefer as "some clown, who is taking his bout with PMS...completely packed with large brown rabbit pellets," he might be instead prepared and do away with the problems entirely.

Not, coincidentally, unlike what other posters here have said, as well.

The briefer apparently further confused the issue by suggesting that the difference between the type designators had something to do with avionics aboard.

Again, pretty much what I, and every other poster has already said.

Are you gettting the point with the repetative irony of the little roll the eyes sarcastic smiley face guy, the one you're so fond of using? Good.

 

[TonyC]

Actually, you pinhead, I didn't. Leave it to tonyc to find a place to take potshots at avbug. Again.

I said nothing about a "stupid pilot." Those would be words you're attempting to put in my mouth. Again.

You're right. You didn't say "stupid pilot", and I was really being unfair by boiling this rant down into "stupid pilot."
:

This is much better than getting on the phone and saying "Howdy, y'all. This here is Jesper. How y'all doing this fine Monday morning? Ain't the weather just pretty as a peach on a nicely manicured grocery produce shelf? I do say so. I'm calling y'all cause I'm in a fix for needing to fly somewhere, and wonder if y'all might help me out. I'm gonna be flying this mooney, you see, and it's a G model with a transponder and other such stuff. I wonder if y'all would be kind enough to help me file a flight plan. You would? That's just downright gentlemanly of you. Well, here goes. We're headed out of Waxahatcheelekootchie today over to Baker, and we'd like to go IFR. That's on instruments, you know. I realize there ain't much of a cloud in sight, but that's what we want to do anyway. We're in this here mooney, and it's a g slant a model, one of the white ones with the psychadelic paint schemes, you know the ones I mean? Anyway, we're going down toward Baker today to do some crawdad fishing. I guess you could put that in the remarks. Where was I? Oh yeah, we'll be running her full out, so I guess you can put about one fifty, though beetween you and me she won't do it lessun there's a mighty strong tailwind and we're light on the gas, and for what it's worth, I don't like to go too light on the gas if you know what I mean. We're gonna be cruising about eighty five hundred feet or so, though we may do something else when the time comes, depends on what we find up there, you know? We're thinking of heading out to waxa vee-oh-arrr, then over to waba vee-oh-arr, then downto wana vee-oh-arr before we shoot on into Baker for a spell. I cain't really tell you how long we're gonna be out there, but we got plenty of gas, so just to be safe, let's say about twelve hours or so, no, make it six, cause we're gonna want dinne sometime and if we're not at Baker by then, we're just gonna land at some roadhouse and tie on the old feedbag. We got twelve hours fuel, though, and my bladder's only good for about three, so we'll see how it shakes out. I don't think we're gonna need an alternate, do you? My name? I'm wilbur wright. I know you probably don't believe me, but it was my momma's idea, and she can't do no wrong, plus I think she thought I might be a pilot, so it sorta fits. I'm flying this mooney from the waxa flying club, and they got a toll free number you can call if you get nervous when I don't show up. They're at one eight hundred five five five, one two, one two, ask for Joanne, she's mighty fine and a good one to talk to. Tell her Wilbur said hi when you call, but watch her, she'll talk your ear off and chat for yours if you give her half a mile. We're gonna have three folks on board. Do you need the animals, becuase we're each taking a blood hound, so I could say we got six on board, but I won't because we don't got that many seats and I know how you people at the FSS get all pissy over little stuff like that, so you better just put three. The airplane is real pretty, it's white with red, gold, yellow, and psychedelic blue trim. In fact, I dunno if you ever saw Fandango with that Kevin Kossner guy, but it looks just like that one that Truman Sparks was flying, except that was a cessna and we're a mooney, and we don't got no chickens or parachutes or nothing. After all, wuffo you wanna go an jump outta a perfectly good airplane, wuffo?. Now that we got the preliminaries out of the way, how bout a nice fine briefing?"

Are you gettting the point with the repetative irony of the little roll the eyes sarcastic smiley face guy, the one you're so fond of using? Good.

Does the eyeroll bother you? (It's "repetitive", by the way. )

I chose not to address the content of your original post, but I suppose I could if that makes you happier. In your first paragraph you made an incorrect assessment, and in the remainder of your post you belittled the poster.

When you told him you were a golf slant alpha, you told him you were a GPS or GNSS equipped aircraft (golf), and then proceeded to tell him that you had DME with a transponder (alpha).

Actually, what he told the briefer was that he was a Mooney model 20G with "slant A" capabilities. The briefer reponded that there was no "type Designator" of Mooney 20G, but that the only choices were 20P and 20T. This comment had nothing to do with GPS equipment.

There was no "slant G", and therefore no declaration, as you assert, of GPS equipment. You are correct insofar as you've noticed a problem with communication. However, your analysis of that miscommunication is incorrect.


You also failed to acknowledge that the briefer with the attitude gave a wrong answer to the question, "What's the difference [between 20P and 20T]?"

We're all human - - I think we can be civil to each other, right? The guy stipulated he's a student, not a 10,000 hour 777 Captain. Give him a break.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

The guy stipulated he's a student, not a 10,000 hour 777 Captain. Give him a break.

Funny thing is there's probably a lot of 10,000 hour 777 Captains that can't file a flight plan either! Just an observation... now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[avbug]

Actually, what he told the briefer was that he was a Mooney model 20G with "slant A" capabilities. The briefer reponded that there was no "type Designator" of Mooney 20G, but that the only choices were 20P and 20T. This comment had nothing to do with GPS equipment.

That may have been his intent, but as I correctly stated, it isn't what the briefer got, hence the briefer's reply. The briefer did not know, and did not care what a G model mooney was, as I have stated, and was confused by the use of g/a, which he took to mean GPS/gnss, and dme with transponder. He offered incorrect choices in an effort to prompt the instrument student, and the instrument student responded incorrectly without looking up the choices, by picking one of the prompts. Clear enough?

The remainder of my reply was not meant to, and did not belittle the poster...unless the poster is called Jesper, or intends to place himself in that role.

Funny thing is there's probably a lot of 10,000 hour 777 Captains that can't file a flight plan either! Just an observation... now back to your regularly scheduled programming

A lot of airline pilots don't do well at flying or working outside their environment, either. Inability to file a flight plan is understandable as everything is done for them, and has been for so long...it's not something they practice, fair enough. Conversely, a lot of folks fly outside work and do maintain currency in many other aspects of their flying, from filing to aerobatics, so generalities are rather difficult to formulate. I'll refer back to cat driver's post about job skills on the general forum, for that.

 

[Flylo]

Somebody Call A Doctor!!

Please excuse any typographical errors made during this reply as I am not able to sit down and type normally due to the horrible a$$ chewing I just received from Avbug.

Actually, if you read between the lines and ignore some of the thousand word diatribe, Avbug made a couple of good points. The paragraph detailing how to call in a flight plan is good information although, it is fairly similar to Martha King's method. Perhaps a devotee.

The other point he makes about wandering all over the airwaves is also well taken even though I don't see what that has to do with this particular question. And Avbug, I notice you assume the "hillbilly dialect" in your essay; perhaps because you think that since all this took place at BNA, I'm fresh out of the hills and "plum ignert". I wouldn't make the assumption that just because a person is flying out of hill country that they are any more guilty of "diarrhea of the mouth" than a flatlander, as evidenced by your post.

Many thanks to those of you who responded to my query in a constructive manner. I AM trying to learn and want to do it correctly, which is why I posted the question. I was wrong, the briefer was right. I do think there was a little confusion in his reply about the Mode C but some of his confusion was undoubtedly because of my initial error. He still didn't need to be quite such a posterior orifice; he gets paid the same whether he's straightening out stupid pilots or briefing Chuck Yeager.

Anyway, I hereby resolve to use what I now believe to be the correct designator on my next flight plan: M20P/A (as Midlifeflyer said). I'll also inform my instructor(s) of this little misunderstanding.

EKUFlyer, thank you for locating that appendix but how did you know where to look for it? I can't find a reference to it in the AIM Chapter 4 or Chapter 5. However, I did find a reference to it on the 2nd page of the 2005 AIM but they were just using that number as an example.

Thanks again for the replies, even yours Avbug.

.

 

[Kream926]

Funny thing is there's probably a lot of 10,000 hour 777 Captains that can't file a flight plan either! Just an observation... now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

funny you say, i have a friend who works at an fbo who had a lear captain ask him if he could help him file.

 

[midlifeflyer]

EKUFlyer, thank you for locating that appendix but how did you know where to look for it? I can't find a reference to it in the AIM Chapter 4 or Chapter 5. However, I did find a reference to it on the 2nd page of the 2005 AIM but they were just using that number as an example..

The full list is in couple of FAA publications, including Order 7110.65P, the ATC Handbook.

But it's probably easier to grab a list from one of the DUAT providers or AOPA or one of the other places you can find the by Googling "flight plan aircraft designator"

Some FSS website also carry them. For example, http://www.faa.gov/ats/afss/aooafss/plane/fixwing.htm

 

[Lead Sled]

funny you say, i have a friend who works at an fbo who had a lear captain ask him if he could help him file.

There are a lot of bizjet pilots who seldom, if ever, phone file. A lot of guys simply call one of the flight planning services and tell them where they want to go and how many passengers they have. The company does the flight planning and filing for them. It's simply a matter of downloading the information into the FMS via datalink. It's usually done on an annual subscription basis. In our operation we don't frequent the larger airports that typically support this service so we normally do all of our own flight planning. A lot of guys use DUATS or sites like Fltplan.com and they are good enough for most legs. Personally, for the past 10 years or so, I've been using Flitesoft-Worldwide. I can literally plan a coast to coast flight, print out all of of the weather, weather charts and appropriate documents and file the flight plan in 5 to 10 minutes. Its accuracy is amazing - I can't remember ever remember being more than 5 minutes and 200 pounds of fuel off of the flight plan estimates on a coast to coast flight either direction. Funny thing, on rare occassions I have to fall a FSS to file. I do it so seldom that I need to find one of those paper flight plan forms to keep from screwing it up.

'Sled

 

[semperfido]

we use afis, arinc and air routing. "sled" described it pretty well. FP is data linked into our fms. clearance data linked. weather data linked. just call for taxijust takes 5-10 min on phone or computer to get the ball rolling.

 

[HiFlyChick]

The order of info between Canada and the US is slightly different, plus from my home base all of the aircraft, company and personal info is on file, so I generally get about 2/3 of the way through and say, "Now what comes next - you guys have a different order than Canada?" I think it's easier for a briefer to prompt for info than have it given in the wrong order so he has to tab all over the screen to get to the correct field