Flight Options negotiations??

[Frac Daddy]

Please define greener !!!! Every place has its problems .... :crying:

Southwest, FedEx, Corporate.

 

[ITFL]

Exactly what I've been saying on the other thread. You can vote the union in and wait for a contract for three years or more. In the meantime, the company won't respond to any of these items while the first collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated. During that period of time, the overall attitude of both groups gets worse and things begin to happen that would not happen if the interference wasn't there. The union blames the company for pushing back but never looks at the fact they are the invading army. In return, the company blames the union. The union publically speaks out because they can't get their way and the company remains quiet to not stir things up worse. Morale gets worse, management tightens up on everything more than usual and union leadership starts to play games by requesting pilots not take overtime or do anything to support the company. The pilots, the families, and all of the other employees get hurt by all of this. In the meantime, many of those that voted bail out to go to other places that are perceived as better which further hurts the company. Please enlighten me as to how "wonderful" things have been during the interum time period between the approval of the contract and the current time. Please tell me how FLOPS has improved and will be a better COMPANY once it is all over. It doesn't look by what I see on this thread. It just looks like union business as usual. If I remember correctly many pilots don't realize that their union dues begin to accumulate from the time the union is approved. Each month that goes by adds to the dues, and they all become due at once when the contract is ratified. If it is more than three years, they can be looking at paying all of the dues all at once. Ouch! At least the guys at Avantair can still avoid all of this nonsense!!

What a load of sycophantic crap. Let me tell you something, the difference between the pilot group at Flight Options, and other pilot groups who have chosen not to unionize, is we are taking pride in our profession and standing up for ourselves, our families and each other. Not just rolling over a accepting crumbs off management’s table, as you would have us do. Yes we are in a fight right now. But you know what, at the end of this fight, when we have a contract that we EARNED, we will walk with the confidence and knowledge that we did it together. I saw that in the NJ pilot group after their CBA. There is a certain pride in that and a sense of brotherhood and fellowship will never know or understand.

Guys like you only think about "me" and that is sad for you because you will never know what it's like to put the wellbeing of your friends and colleagues above yourself. This is the same personality type that would sit by and watch as his friend was kicked around by a school yard bully. But what’s worse, you would profess sympathy for the bully and criticize the brave group of smaller children who decided to look around at one another and say ENOUGH, with a single defiant voice.

 

[FRLWD]

In the meantime, the company won't respond to any of these items while the first collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated.

Of course not! They don't want to give up control. Besides, they already have their own fat contracts to protect themselves, why would they want the pilots to be protected?. They have their cake and want to eat ours too.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What a load of sycophantic crap. Let me tell you something, the difference between the pilot group at Flight Options, and other pilot groups who have chosen not to unionize, is we are taking pride in our profession and standing up for ourselves, our families and each other. Not just rolling over a accepting crumbs off management’s table, as you would have us do. Yes we are in a fight right now. But you know what, at the end of this fight, when we have a contract that we EARNED, we will walk with the confidence and knowledge that we did it together. I saw that in the NJ pilot group after their CBA. There is a certain pride in that and a sense of brotherhood and fellowship will never know or understand.

Guys like you only think about "me" and that is sad for you because you will never know what it's like to put the wellbeing of your friends and colleagues above yourself. This is the same personality type that would sit by and watch as his friend was kicked around by a school yard bully. But what’s worse, you would profess sympathy for the bully and criticize the brave group of smaller children who decided to look around at one another and say ENOUGH, with a single defiant voice.

Are you saying that a pilot union is the best thing for the company or for the pilots? Cuz if I undertand what you are saying, as long as you take pride in your profession and have a sense of brotherhood, the rest of the company and the employees can take a flying leap. Unlike what I have been writing, I don't see anything in your post that discusses what is best for the company as a whole, only for you and your union. Others in the company have deep investments in their careers too, not just the pilots. While there is a legal right not to respect their efforts, there are moral issues here also. The union doesn't care about anybody that doesn't pay them dues.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Of course not! They don't want to give up control. Besides, they already have their own fat contracts to protect themselves, why would they want the pilots to be protected?. They have their cake and want to eat ours too.

I can assure you that it's part of the bargaining process that lends to what makes the whole thing so miserable. But while you seem to focus on "their" fat contracts as the reason for the delay, have you stopped to think that nobody else in the company wants a pilot contract either? I can assure you that nobody in scheduling wants to deal with it, nor does anybody else. Union contracts tend to pit one group against another. When it's all said and done, everybody loses, even the pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

I can assure you that it's part of the bargaining process that lends to what makes the whole thing so miserable. But while you seem to focus on "their" fat contracts as the reason for the delay, have you stopped to think that nobody else in the company wants a pilot contract either? I can assure you that nobody in scheduling wants to deal with it, nor does anybody else. Union contracts tend to pit one group against another. When it's all said and done, everybody loses, even the pilots.

I seriously doubt your assurance. I imagine that a load will be lifted from scheduling when we get a contract. Right now scheduling is caught between a management that is trying to circumvent the Regs and SOPs and a pilot group with varying degrees of allegiance and solidarity. When a contract is in place it will be pretty much cut and dried. Deviations and errors will still occur, but a payment will be exacted.

As for everybody else, I believe that they will also benefit. In most companies where a particular group is organized, the non-organized groups will also see an improvement in pay and benefits as well. The reason for this is logical, predictable, and historical.

I’m getting a little suspicious of the credentials that you’ve claimed in some of your other posts.

 

[CA1900]

B19, is this hanging over your office door?

http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/8139/companyqo3.jpg



I've worked for companies with contracts and without. And the only real difference is that, with a contract, the pilots don't get crapped on nearly as much by the other departments. With my last job, I had to simply roll over and take it when scheduling felt like ruining my day. Example: Rather than putting me on the next flight home after my trip, leaving me sitting at a hub for 7 hours to wait for a ride home, "just in case something came up." No pay, no nothing. Contracts prevent that kind of abuse.

 

[clickclickboom]

Southwest, FedEx, Corporate.

There are a dozen flops guys at jetblue that i know of

 

[Fozzy]

The union doesn't care about anybody that doesn't pay them dues.

And why would they? We, the unionized folks, pay them to look out for us. It is a good chunk of change we pay but the best money I have ever spent. But there are no free rides.
They lobby for us!
Are you a socialist? "best for the company as a whole" HA now that is some funny chit. Time to join the real world. You say you have been around the block. But you sound like either a dreamy eyed college grad that is doing bong hits or a management tool.

 

[FRLWD]

Cuz if I undertand what you are saying, as long as you take pride in your profession and have a sense of brotherhood, the rest of the company and the employees can take a flying leap.

Wrong! Pilots can't bargain for other employee groups, judging by your posts I think you know that! Pilots feel sympathy for other employee groups working under the same management as we, but they are required to hammer out issues for themselves.

 

[FRLWD]

Union contracts tend to pit one group against another.

How about a bonus created by FLOPS management, which pays an incentive to pilots only for flying X amount of legs per day. No one in scheduling/dispatch was offered any money for their part. Most of the pilots never achieved the bonus either, it was simply a carrot created to cover "high demand". Management doesn't discriminate, they step on all employees to achieve their goals to do more with less.

 

[FRLWD]

When it's all said and done, everybody loses, even the pilots.

You're right..........I'll bet the NJA pilots felt like such loosers when they recieved their retro pay. And I'm sure they sink lower, when at the end of the month they realize they did'nt pay a dime for insurance. And when they get paid OT for working holidays, maby they're thoughts grow darker still. Let's not discuss what goes through their minds when they duty on before 8am.

I pity them................I truely do.

 

[pilotpat]

You're right..........I'll bet the NJA pilots felt like such loosers when they recieved their retro pay. And I'm sure they sink lower when at the end of the month they realize they did'nt pay a dime for insurance. And when they get paid OT for working holidays they are having suisidal thoughts. Let's not discuss what goes through their minds when they duty on before 8am.

I pity them................I truely do.

Makes me sad I'm in the pool, now...dam. :nuts:

 

[longrangekiller]

B-19 Flyer. Attrition is exactly what management wanted. Management was dumping the old acft and reducing the overall size of the fleet. Thus the need for dump pilots. If you can not fire them, you have to make them want to leave. And that is exactly what happened. Who won??


I left just before the management began dumping the older aircraft. Had I remained with FO, I would be in the 20's for seniority number.

Instead, I left for a flying job that pays about the same but with not even a third the work and no over nights.

 

[Galaxy]

Greener Pastures

You ask about greener pastures and then say that all places have thier problems. True-but believe me it is not hard at all to improve from the FLOPS standard. Most of the guys I have know that bailed out have better jobs now than when they were employed by FLOPS. While some may be making lower salaries due to starting at a new senority number for a reputable company. They are still much happier with thier new lifestyle and the future that awaits them in thier new jobs.

The IBT1108 has been blessed with great leadership across the board from NJA to FLOPS. They are all doing an excellent job voluntarily and have transparant accounting.

That place was doomed the day the MS walked in the door and brought all his crappy ex-airline cronies with him. As soon as all the pilots get on the solidarity wagon then they will have no choice but to sit down and negotiate a contract. How about just lock the doors and close up shop.

I too left after 6 years and now make more money, work about a third the time and rarely find myself in a hotel overnight. So the answer is-yea the grass is greener on the other side and I wish I didn't waste any more time at FLOPS than I needed to. The positive side to FLOPS is the pilots.. they are the one and only asset to that company-even if they do not recognize it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You ask about greener pastures and then say that all places have thier problems. True-but believe me it is not hard at all to improve from the FLOPS standard. Most of the guys I have know that bailed out have better jobs now than when they were employed by FLOPS. While some may be making lower salaries due to starting at a new senority number for a reputable company. They are still much happier with thier new lifestyle and the future that awaits them in thier new jobs.

The IBT1108 has been blessed with great leadership across the board from NJA to FLOPS. They are all doing an excellent job voluntarily and have transparant accounting.

That place was doomed the day the MS walked in the door and brought all his crappy ex-airline cronies with him. As soon as all the pilots get on the solidarity wagon then they will have no choice but to sit down and negotiate a contract. How about just lock the doors and close up shop.

I too left after 6 years and now make more money, work about a third the time and rarely find myself in a hotel overnight. So the answer is-yea the grass is greener on the other side and I wish I didn't waste any more time at FLOPS than I needed to. The positive side to FLOPS is the pilots.. they are the one and only asset to that company-even if they do not recognize it.

This post is all the good and that bad that I have been stating all along. The good is that everybody has individual choices. You made a choice to leave what you didn't personally like and you found a better situation because of it just like me. If you aren't happy, find someplace more appropriate. On the bad side, if you aren't happy it doesn't give you the right to impose your will on the rest of the employees. What you don't like might be the exact reason others work there and they might not want it changed. Remember, that not all employees are pilots. Inviting a union on the property affects the entire company, not just the pilots. Because I like working for a non-union carrier doesn't mean that I have the right to impose my will on others. If a pilot wants to work for a union carrier, there are plenty of them hiring. Find one. Just don't go into a non-union shop and decide after you get there that it sucks and think that a union is always going to make it better. My personal experience indicates that it usually doesn't.

 

[GerryG]

Wow...It looks like we now have our very own Family Guy. Yeah! I wonder if "B" stands for Bob? Is this the 19th incarnation of Bob's union-busting online persona?

What I love best is the circular logic of B19. "Individual choice" is good, but making the "individual choice" to organize or support a union is bad.

Choose to work at a company that already has a union if that's what your into he says.

How does he think those union's got there to begin with? At some point someone had to make the "individual choice" to organize it.

I'm going to suggest to B19 that he make the "individual choice" to butt out of our business.

One way or another our union's not going anywhere, so get used to it "B", I mean Bob.

 

[TurboHonda]

This post is all the good and that bad that I have been stating all along. The good is that everybody has individual choices. You made a choice to leave what you didn't personally like and you found a better situation because of it just like me. If you aren't happy, find someplace more appropriate. On the bad side, if you aren't happy it doesn't give you the right to impose your will on the rest of the employees. What you don't like might be the exact reason others work there and they might not want it changed. Remember, that not all employees are pilots. Inviting a union on the property affects the entire company, not just the pilots. Because I like working for a non-union carrier doesn't mean that I have the right to impose my will on others. If a pilot wants to work for a union carrier, there are plenty of them hiring. Find one. Just don't go into a non-union shop and decide after you get there that it sucks and think that a union is always going to make it better. My personal experience indicates that it usually doesn't.

I’m starting to believe that your “personal experience” could be measured in months, rather than years. By using the trite cliché “if you don’t like it, then leave”, you are over simplifying a problem that runs much deeper than you would apparently like.

For the most part, the organizers of the union at FLOPS were senior pilots that acted in self defense against the actions of management that came on the property years after those same pilots had committed the remainder of their careers to the company.

If any one group is imposing their will on another group, it would seem that our carpetbagger management is the imposer rather than the imposed.

 

[hydrarkt]

Yes, it seems that FO's "legal team" has identified this site as a "site of interest" and assigned it's own Family Guy! It would be interesting to find out who he is. We know who FG is. It helps to see things more clearly

 

[gunfyter]

We know who 19 is....