Flight Options negotiations??

[dime line]

Exactly what I've been saying on the other thread. You can vote the union in and wait for a contract for three years or more. In the meantime, the company won't respond to any of these items while the first collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated. During that period of time, the overall attitude of both groups gets worse and things begin to happen that would not happen if the interference wasn't there. The union blames the company for pushing back but never looks at the fact they are the invading army. In return, the company blames the union. The union publically speaks out because they can't get their way and the company remains quiet to not stir things up worse. Morale gets worse, management tightens up on everything more than usual and union leadership starts to play games by requesting pilots not take overtime or do anything to support the company. The pilots, the families, and all of the other employees get hurt by all of this. In the meantime, many of those that voted bail out to go to other places that are perceived as better which further hurts the company. Please enlighten me as to how "wonderful" things have been during the interum time period between the approval of the contract and the current time. Please tell me how FLOPS has improved and will be a better COMPANY once it is all over. It doesn't look by what I see on this thread. It just looks like union business as usual. If I remember correctly many pilots don't realize that their union dues begin to accumulate from the time the union is approved. Each month that goes by adds to the dues, and they all become due at once when the contract is ratified. If it is more than three years, they can be looking at paying all of the dues all at once. Ouch! At least the guys at Avantair can still avoid all of this nonsense!!

Wow your a dumbazzz, I bet I can take your wife and you would not do anything about it. You have to me management, you cannot be this dumb, shoot my dog isn't this dumb......

 

[TurboHonda]

Exactly what I've been saying on the other thread. You can vote the union in and wait for a contract for three years or more. In the meantime, the company won't respond to any of these items while the first collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated. During that period of time, the overall attitude of both groups gets worse and things begin to happen that would not happen if the interference wasn't there. The union blames the company for pushing back but never looks at the fact they are the invading army. In return, the company blames the union. The union publically speaks out because they can't get their way and the company remains quiet to not stir things up worse. Morale gets worse, management tightens up on everything more than usual and union leadership starts to play games by requesting pilots not take overtime or do anything to support the company. The pilots, the families, and all of the other employees get hurt by all of this. In the meantime, many of those that voted bail out to go to other places that are perceived as better which further hurts the company. Please enlighten me as to how "wonderful" things have been during the interum time period between the approval of the contract and the current time. Please tell me how FLOPS has improved and will be a better COMPANY once it is all over. It doesn't look by what I see on this thread. It just looks like union business as usual. If I remember correctly many pilots don't realize that their union dues begin to accumulate from the time the union is approved. Each month that goes by adds to the dues, and they all become due at once when the contract is ratified. If it is more than three years, they can be looking at paying all of the dues all at once. Ouch! At least the guys at Avantair can still avoid all of this nonsense!!

Some of these things are happening, it’s true. I suppose this all could have been avoided by continuing on a subservient path.

Dime Line made a point about taking someone’s wife without fear of retaliation. I think even the most timid and meek among us would at least raise a hand a say, “Uh, please. Uh, Sir. If you don’t mind, I think you’re going too far.”

Well, some folks will go a little further and extend a defensive posture when their profession, livelihood, and family’s well-being are being threatened.

We don’t look at the “fact” that the union is an invading army because it’s not a fact. The “fact” is that the union is the authority to be a legitimate entity. Without such an authority the pilots are nothing more than unprotected and expendable pawns. Their existence depends on keeping their heads down, accepting injustice heaped on others, and luck.

You asked for a “wonderful” thing that has happened during the interim. I’ll give you three.

• I wake up to my own alarm clock. Scheduling can no longer depend on a rolling indefinite duty day and early morning wake-up calls as their standard means of manning aircraft. I may have to work a 14 hour day, but at least I know which 14.

• I fly a safe airplane. When it’s broke, I write it up. I no longer worry about management retaliation for not accepting their whimsical and ever changing interpretation of the FARs and MEL.

• I walk and talk with pride in the company of other pilots who are doing the same.

Surely you can understand 1 and 2. If you need help with number 3, just give yourself a little more time.

 

[gunfyter]

Excellent Post Turbo

 

[FR8DOG777]

double post

 

[FR8DOG777]

Too Many Whores at FLOPS

Some of these things are happening, it’s true. I suppose this all could have been avoided by continuing on a subservient path.

Dime Line made a point about taking someone’s wife without fear of retaliation. I think even the most timid and meek among us would at least raise a hand a say, “Uh, please. Uh, Sir. If you don’t mind, I think you’re going too far.”

Well, some folks will go a little further and extend a defensive posture when their profession, livelihood, and family’s well-being are being threatened.

We don’t look at the “fact” that the union is an invading army because it’s not a fact. The “fact” is that the union is the authority to be a legitimate entity. Without such an authority the pilots are nothing more than unprotected and expendable pawns. Their existence depends on keeping their heads down, accepting injustice heaped on others, and luck.

You asked for a “wonderful” thing that has happened during the interim. I’ll give you three.

• I wake up to my own alarm clock. Scheduling can no longer depend on a rolling indefinite duty day and early morning wake-up calls as their standard means of manning aircraft. I may have to work a 14 hour day, but at least I know which 14.

• I fly a safe airplane. When it’s broke, I write it up. I no longer worry about management retaliation for not accepting their whimsical and ever changing interpretation of the FARs and MEL.

• I walk and talk with pride in the company of other pilots who are doing the same.

Surely you can understand 1 and 2. If you need help with number 3, just give yourself a little more time.

If more pilots would do the same, a respectable contract will come sooner then later. FLOPS has more whores than professional pilots on staff, working overtime and doing favors for the company. Nothing will change for the better until the majority of the pilots figures out how to work together. The saddest part is our own union leadership didn't pay their dues on time and can't hold an elected office because of it. Management must think we are a bunch of clowns.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Please define greener !!!! Every place has its problems .... :crying:

Southwest, FedEx, Corporate.

 

[ITFL]

Exactly what I've been saying on the other thread. You can vote the union in and wait for a contract for three years or more. In the meantime, the company won't respond to any of these items while the first collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated. During that period of time, the overall attitude of both groups gets worse and things begin to happen that would not happen if the interference wasn't there. The union blames the company for pushing back but never looks at the fact they are the invading army. In return, the company blames the union. The union publically speaks out because they can't get their way and the company remains quiet to not stir things up worse. Morale gets worse, management tightens up on everything more than usual and union leadership starts to play games by requesting pilots not take overtime or do anything to support the company. The pilots, the families, and all of the other employees get hurt by all of this. In the meantime, many of those that voted bail out to go to other places that are perceived as better which further hurts the company. Please enlighten me as to how "wonderful" things have been during the interum time period between the approval of the contract and the current time. Please tell me how FLOPS has improved and will be a better COMPANY once it is all over. It doesn't look by what I see on this thread. It just looks like union business as usual. If I remember correctly many pilots don't realize that their union dues begin to accumulate from the time the union is approved. Each month that goes by adds to the dues, and they all become due at once when the contract is ratified. If it is more than three years, they can be looking at paying all of the dues all at once. Ouch! At least the guys at Avantair can still avoid all of this nonsense!!

What a load of sycophantic crap. Let me tell you something, the difference between the pilot group at Flight Options, and other pilot groups who have chosen not to unionize, is we are taking pride in our profession and standing up for ourselves, our families and each other. Not just rolling over a accepting crumbs off management’s table, as you would have us do. Yes we are in a fight right now. But you know what, at the end of this fight, when we have a contract that we EARNED, we will walk with the confidence and knowledge that we did it together. I saw that in the NJ pilot group after their CBA. There is a certain pride in that and a sense of brotherhood and fellowship will never know or understand.

Guys like you only think about "me" and that is sad for you because you will never know what it's like to put the wellbeing of your friends and colleagues above yourself. This is the same personality type that would sit by and watch as his friend was kicked around by a school yard bully. But what’s worse, you would profess sympathy for the bully and criticize the brave group of smaller children who decided to look around at one another and say ENOUGH, with a single defiant voice.

 

[FRLWD]

In the meantime, the company won't respond to any of these items while the first collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated.

Of course not! They don't want to give up control. Besides, they already have their own fat contracts to protect themselves, why would they want the pilots to be protected?. They have their cake and want to eat ours too.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What a load of sycophantic crap. Let me tell you something, the difference between the pilot group at Flight Options, and other pilot groups who have chosen not to unionize, is we are taking pride in our profession and standing up for ourselves, our families and each other. Not just rolling over a accepting crumbs off management’s table, as you would have us do. Yes we are in a fight right now. But you know what, at the end of this fight, when we have a contract that we EARNED, we will walk with the confidence and knowledge that we did it together. I saw that in the NJ pilot group after their CBA. There is a certain pride in that and a sense of brotherhood and fellowship will never know or understand.

Guys like you only think about "me" and that is sad for you because you will never know what it's like to put the wellbeing of your friends and colleagues above yourself. This is the same personality type that would sit by and watch as his friend was kicked around by a school yard bully. But what’s worse, you would profess sympathy for the bully and criticize the brave group of smaller children who decided to look around at one another and say ENOUGH, with a single defiant voice.

Are you saying that a pilot union is the best thing for the company or for the pilots? Cuz if I undertand what you are saying, as long as you take pride in your profession and have a sense of brotherhood, the rest of the company and the employees can take a flying leap. Unlike what I have been writing, I don't see anything in your post that discusses what is best for the company as a whole, only for you and your union. Others in the company have deep investments in their careers too, not just the pilots. While there is a legal right not to respect their efforts, there are moral issues here also. The union doesn't care about anybody that doesn't pay them dues.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Of course not! They don't want to give up control. Besides, they already have their own fat contracts to protect themselves, why would they want the pilots to be protected?. They have their cake and want to eat ours too.

I can assure you that it's part of the bargaining process that lends to what makes the whole thing so miserable. But while you seem to focus on "their" fat contracts as the reason for the delay, have you stopped to think that nobody else in the company wants a pilot contract either? I can assure you that nobody in scheduling wants to deal with it, nor does anybody else. Union contracts tend to pit one group against another. When it's all said and done, everybody loses, even the pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

I can assure you that it's part of the bargaining process that lends to what makes the whole thing so miserable. But while you seem to focus on "their" fat contracts as the reason for the delay, have you stopped to think that nobody else in the company wants a pilot contract either? I can assure you that nobody in scheduling wants to deal with it, nor does anybody else. Union contracts tend to pit one group against another. When it's all said and done, everybody loses, even the pilots.

I seriously doubt your assurance. I imagine that a load will be lifted from scheduling when we get a contract. Right now scheduling is caught between a management that is trying to circumvent the Regs and SOPs and a pilot group with varying degrees of allegiance and solidarity. When a contract is in place it will be pretty much cut and dried. Deviations and errors will still occur, but a payment will be exacted.

As for everybody else, I believe that they will also benefit. In most companies where a particular group is organized, the non-organized groups will also see an improvement in pay and benefits as well. The reason for this is logical, predictable, and historical.

I’m getting a little suspicious of the credentials that you’ve claimed in some of your other posts.

 

[CA1900]

B19, is this hanging over your office door?

http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/8139/companyqo3.jpg



I've worked for companies with contracts and without. And the only real difference is that, with a contract, the pilots don't get crapped on nearly as much by the other departments. With my last job, I had to simply roll over and take it when scheduling felt like ruining my day. Example: Rather than putting me on the next flight home after my trip, leaving me sitting at a hub for 7 hours to wait for a ride home, "just in case something came up." No pay, no nothing. Contracts prevent that kind of abuse.

 

[clickclickboom]

Southwest, FedEx, Corporate.

There are a dozen flops guys at jetblue that i know of

 

[Fozzy]

The union doesn't care about anybody that doesn't pay them dues.

And why would they? We, the unionized folks, pay them to look out for us. It is a good chunk of change we pay but the best money I have ever spent. But there are no free rides.
They lobby for us!
Are you a socialist? "best for the company as a whole" HA now that is some funny chit. Time to join the real world. You say you have been around the block. But you sound like either a dreamy eyed college grad that is doing bong hits or a management tool.

 

[FRLWD]

Cuz if I undertand what you are saying, as long as you take pride in your profession and have a sense of brotherhood, the rest of the company and the employees can take a flying leap.

Wrong! Pilots can't bargain for other employee groups, judging by your posts I think you know that! Pilots feel sympathy for other employee groups working under the same management as we, but they are required to hammer out issues for themselves.