Flight Instructor Shortage

[xjhawk]

I was happy to let my rating go, since even though I liked flight instructing, it was long hours, and very dangerous. Now as a regional pilot, it would be nice to have some extra income, I see that its still best to not have kept those ratings. Why you ask. Well, lets see, new students try to kill you! The other thing is when you are tired and decide to do some extra flight training and make a mental mistake, BAM! There goes your real job. Not a way I want to end my career. But it do miss flying small planes. Oh by the way, it was only 2-4 times I had a student pilot surprise me and try to kill us both. Thats too many times in the year I was FI'ing

 

[deadstick]

Is the same going to happen at the regional level?

:laugh: I almost had Coke coming out of my nose and all over my keyboard when I read this.

Um...yea...right...The Bobs feel that as long as there are places like Gulfstream Int'l and people are willing to leave a $25/hr (120+ hr/mo potential) CFI job for a $20/hr (75 hr/mo) job, why do they need to change? Lowering the mins doesn't attract more qualified pilots, it just increases the stress level of the folks in the left seat who are only making $34/hr (@ 75hr/mo).

The lowest published places I have seen...
Colgan 600/80
Skyway 700/50
Big Sky 750/50
Great Lakes 750/50
...have I missed one?
Seems like I heard about a 500/25 operator out there.
Who is handing out iPods as signing bonuses, or is that just after completing IOE? (Kidding. Or am I..??? )

An instructor can have these times in less than 6 months from the checkride. Due to their wealth of experience and a cultivated, matured ADM thought process, these are definitely the most qualified candidates for the right seat of a jet cruising at .80-or so carrying 50+.

(Stepping off the soap box, now.)

 

[Goose Egg]

The lowest published places I have seen...
Colgan 600/80
Skyway 700/50
Big Sky 750/50
Great Lakes 750/50
...have I missed one?
Seems like I heard about a 500/25 operator out there.
Who is handing out iPods as signing bonuses, or is that just after completing IOE? (Kidding. Or am I..??? )

The good news is that I have WELL over the total time requirements. The bad news is that I'm under the ME requirements for everyone but one. But the good news is that when I do get the ME time, I'll be able to kick the 750 hour pilot's butt. But the bad news is that night freight guy will be able to kick mine!

-Goose

 

[time builder]

The lowest published places I have seen...
Colgan 600/80
Skyway 700/50
Big Sky 750/50
Great Lakes 750/50
...have I missed one?
Seems like I heard about a 500/25 operator out there.
Who is handing out iPods as signing bonuses, or is that just after completing IOE? (Kidding. Or am I..??? )

Key Lime 500/30
King Airelines 500/(50 prefered)
Trans States 500/50
Scenic 600/50

I'm sure there's others

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Try ASA. You'll be handling a "big" jet going internationally with 500 hours. These kids are going to be along for the ride. Unfortunately, I'll the one taking them. Just remember to keep your hands off everything unless I tell you to. In fact, just strap on your IPOD and go to sleep.

 

[skypine69]

6000 pilot jobs need to be filled this year. I talked to an Embry riddiculous recruiter and apparently it costs 26k per year for tuition plus flight time plus liiving expenses. Is this accurate? By my math that is over 150k for a 4 year and i guess a commercial or CFI or whatever they end up with. My fo last week said he took home 11k in his first year.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

This is one of the problems that comes along with lower minimums. As an instructor you can make entry level regional over a good 9 months. What incentive does the instructor have to produce quality students if they won't even see most through to the check-ride? This continually prolongs the process of becoming a pilot and further shortens supply. Raising salaries is not an option available to the domestic market.

The associated capacity shrink with re-regulation is the only successful way to solve what ales this industry. Regulation will build in the flexibility to actively recruit pilots and allow airlines to keep attractive salaries.

 

[flyf15]

I'd say the problem isnt that there are a lack of pilots. Its that there are a lack of pilots for some of the jobs that are available.

For any supply and demand situation, there is a solution unless there is absolutely zero supply or demand. Where the supply of pilots and demand for pilots meet can be correlated to being the resulting pilot's compensation level. Compensation isn't just pay... its job satisifaction, stability, meeting personal goals and desires, etc. The problem for many of these jobs is that the companies insist on providing compensation below the free market compensation for their demand. This creates a less than adequate supply... the pilots go elsewhere for jobs.

The majors have compensation beyond what their demand requires. Thats why if they choose to hire, they have dozens or hundreds of applicants per position and they are therefore able to take their pick of the most qualified applicants. Regionals and flight schools don't have this due to their low compensation.

We won't have a pilot shortage until all companies are lacking pilots. Until then, we just have a shortage of abilities in management to correctly run their corporations and make working there good enough so that pilots want to join their company.

Supply and demand works. There will never be a shortage. What there will be is an increase in compensation.

 

[skypine69]

f15...agreed, i think you hit it just right. i have been saying for about 2 years that the regionals are facing a pilot shortage. I think this will trickle up to the majors in few years. i think it is a good time to get on at a major becuase i think in the next few years the pay will have to increase to get regional guys to give up the senority they have and start over again

 

[YourPilotFriend]

f15...agreed, i think you hit it just right. i have been saying for about 2 years that the regionals are facing a pilot shortage. I think this will trickle up to the majors in few years. i think it is a good time to get on at a major becuase i think in the next few years the pay will have to increase to get regional guys to give up the senority they have and start over again

The regionals are experiencing record growth, a pilot shortage, guaranteed profits, and yet still pay is sliding at them. The RFP is what is killing the regional career.

Pay increases are prevented at the majors by oversupply, and by RFP's at the regionals. Read my signature!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

With globalization here... US companies will be looking at the way foreign carriers stock thier flightdecks....

Know the multi crew licensing plan at ICAO and the indentured servitude program at Ryan Air....

Increased compensation, work rules and benefits are the last thing management wants to change...

 

[flyf15]

With globalization here... US companies will be looking at the way foreign carriers stock thier flightdecks....

Know the multi crew licensing plan at ICAO and the indentured servitude program at Ryan Air....

Increased compensation, work rules and benefits are the last thing management wants to change...

This is one of the scariest things we have to look forward to in our careers... having someone with a Chinese or Indian passport flying a revenue flight within US borders.

 

[wrxpilot]

If I had to start over and take flying lessons now, I wouldnt go the civilian route. (which I did) Rental fees are out of control. $100 plus for C-172, thats nuts. Sadly, the increase in rates has gone largely for the equipment and not to the instructor. I charged 25/hr in 1995, and the plane was around $50. Now, the plane rate has more than doubled, but the instructor fee has gone up only a couple bucks. WTF over?

Weird. The places I've been at have the 172s at around $80/wet/hr and the CFIs around $42. Oh, the areas are Denver and South FL.

 

[wrxpilot]

This is one of the problems that comes along with lower minimums. As an instructor you can make entry level regional over a good 9 months. What incentive does the instructor have to produce quality students if they won't even see most through to the check-ride? This continually prolongs the process of becoming a pilot and further shortens supply. Raising salaries is not an option available to the domestic market.

The associated capacity shrink with re-regulation is the only successful way to solve what ales this industry. Regulation will build in the flexibility to actively recruit pilots and allow airlines to keep attractive salaries.

One big incentive is to stay and build time for 135 mins. Regional flying pays crap. I'll be hanging on to go try out with Airnet or somebody that actually pays ok.

 

[Rally]

Have flown 135 14 hr duty days and 10 hours of rest with a shady company trying to get you to strech your days is not fun. All for $2000 a month in the northeast. Single pilot IFR, would never do it again. I don't like shooting approaches 1/4 100 VV 8 x a day. No thanks. I would take a pay cut to fly at a regional and at least feel safe.

 

[belchfire]

Well, good. A shortage of instructors should lead to a shortage of people with shiney jet syndrome...which barring other factors should lead to an increase in pay. Which will dictate an increase in ticket prices, which will get some of the rifraff out of the terminals...and open some seats up so non-reving will be a benifit again!

 

[YaMama]

This is one of the scariest things we have to look forward to in our careers... having someone with a Chinese or Indian passport flying a revenue flight within US borders.

I dunno, the reason outsourcing to China and India was so "successful" in the computer industry is because the people who are taking the jobs are _living_ in those countries, where a steak dinner costs $2, a house costs $4000 ... and $15k a year makes for a pretty nice standard of living. But there´s no way to do that with piloting, you have to have physical presence in the States, and paying the same prices as everybody else for cost of living. At least until mgmt figures out a way for a 12 year old kid to fly fifteen airplanes at once from a playstation console halfway around the world ...

 

[Crash Pad]

OK a couple of things. First the globalization thing. India, China, Dubai, etc... are part of the problem. They need pilots just as bad as the US. They are already hiring US pilots and paying them more than they can make in the US. We don't need to stop foreign pilots from coming here because the opportunities are better in other countries.

To whoever started this thread. I have a trainer that has no college degree and took a wizbang home study training course. I pay her $45 an hour. She now charges what the other trainers at my gym charge $60+ an hour.

I'm sorry but when you get on a message board and say "I'm offering twenty-something an hour and I can't figure out the problem"... I gotta tell ya... You dug this hole. The regionals made it deeper. The majors kept on digging.

Here you go smart MBA man. Give your instructor 45K a year with health dental and 401K. Make a five day work week with two days off of his/her choosing. Then charge Suzy student more for the instructor. Problem solved.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Crash Pad, the rocket scientist.. when everyone is trying to find the 'cheapest' of everything (airline tickets, flight instructors, etc. etc. ) how do you think that flight school will stay in business charging the student $35/hr and giving the instructor 45K.?
we are actually hiring instructors who retire from airlines. they are much more valuable than the 'dudes' with Ipods.

 

[Black Hawk]

Flight schools have been riding on the backs of low paid CFI's for a long time so it's hard to feel sorry for them. Absent a reasonable paycheck that you could raise a family on that includes insurance, medical and retirement plan it will always be a short timer or hobby job.

 

[huncowboy]

Hi!

Many American don't understand the Ab-Initio program.
Example:
The airline recuits in various public (non-flying) places, including high schools. Everyone takes tests, and the airlines selects the ones they want. They start with "0" time, and the airline pays for that employee's private and commerical training. When the receive their commercial, then they start in ground school with the airline. The candidates may have all their living expenses paid for while they receive their free flight training.

It's basically the opposite of "pay for training".

cliff
YIP

Who is desperate for very low time guys? I've heard Eagle, Pinnacle, TSA, Colgan, Big Sky, Mesa, etc., etc.

While all this is true, many airlines will only credit the training cost. It will be deducted from your wages later. Lufthansa is like that I THINK. Correct me if I am wrong as I may be.

In case of Lufthansa they are trained here in the USA. I watched a documentary about it a while ago and it seemed top noch. Lots of sim time. I would not want to pay that back compared to my $50k I have spent from my own pocket.

The one advantage I see in ab-inition programs is the fact that you are well pre screened. It is extremely competitive to get in. I guess it can be compared to what the military guys/girls have to go through. Friends of mine who have instructed initial flight training for the US Navy told me that it was a dream working with those applicants. Motivated and disciplined. Very high percentage of those trainees made it. It was all thanks to pre screening and evaluating their performance well before they came close to an airplane. Try that at DCA or other major 141 schools combined with some not so quality community college. It is a disaster. Just because one can get the loan, it does not mean he has the motivation and even that little brain power you need for this.

I remember one student. He wanted to get some education but was not sure what field. The college made him complete a test, and the advisor gave him a list of fields that was spit out by the test as a good match. On the list, among other jobs there was airline pilot as well. So he came in and started training. He washed in private and waisted anywhere from $5-10k last I have heard.

IMHO it should be completely illegal for someone to get a huge loan without pre screening or at least they should cut him off early if it goes horribly. But it is a business so it is all good as long someone makes money... like the banks and the schools.

 

[Vne]

Supply and demand works. There will never be a shortage. What there will be is an increase in compensation.

When pilots and or their associations control the entrance to flight schools, the way doctors and the AMA control entrance into medical schools, pilot positions will always be "low bid contracts".

 

[pilotsh]

This is one of the scariest things we have to look forward to in our careers... having someone with a Chinese or Indian passport flying a revenue flight within US borders.

If we start getting foreigners to start flying in the US, I guarantee you, you won't see ANY from those countries. China and India have the worst pilot shortages in the world. And it's not at the regional level or CFI level, its the majors that are hurting for them. India and China only have a handful of flightschools. As soon as you get your commercial license, they hire you. BUT, it's an ab-initio program that I'll explain later. Lots of Chinese and Indian people come to the US to get their licenses, then go back to their home country where they can go directly to a major.

As for the ab-initio thing that Cliff was talking about, it's not the same thing we know here. Countries like Japan, Korea, Hong Kong (they're kinda like a country), Singapore, Germany, etc have programs where they HIRE you with ZERO time. Now let me qualify that by saying when they hire someone, it's cream of the crop. They go to the best universities (NOT aviation universities, but the Ivy league equivalents of the US) and hand select them. They send them to the US or Europe to get all their flight training up to Comm Multi. Again, this is all paid fully by the company, along with training pay. Then they come back, and for an exhaustive 9-12 months they train on the full-motion sims.

If we do start getting hiring foreigners, it will most likely be from Europe, Australia and Brazil where there are plenty of low time pilots that are trying to build hours like we are.

 

[siucavflight]

In talking with someone who does recruiting for XJT(friend of mine) She is saying that the regionals are in a race to lower their mins the fastest so that they can get the applicant first. And eventually everyone will be down to 500TT 100ME by the end of this year, and between 20-30 months that pilot group will be gone, and they will have litterally hired all possible candidates, and there is not even close to enough guys going through training right now to replace the 500 hour group. So the only way to staff the airline after that is to start taking pilots from other companies, and in order to do that they have to offer better pay and QOL then the other guy.
Better life and pay at the regional is coming, and what is ironic is that it is not what we did as a pilot group, but rater the way that we as a pilot grop screwed up this industry so bad that no one wants to do it anymoe, this is what is going to get us our better contracts.

 

[BoilerUP]

ASA and Pinnacle are in contract negotiations, RAH & Mesa are set to begin soon.

We'll see about all that in 20-30 months...

 

[time builder]

IMHO it should be completely illegal for someone to get a huge loan without pre screening or at least they should cut him off early if it goes horribly. But it is a business so it is all good as long someone makes money... like the banks and the schools.

Not to mention the CFI who milks the student for flying time. I'm not one for discouraging students, but a little reality check every now and then may be appropriate.

I had one instructor in college who was furloughed from a regional shortly after 9/11. He wouldn't give us fluff. What he gave us was the honest state of the industry, and what we could reasonably expect. I'm sure he lost the college students for not telling the them what they wanted to hear, but I've always respected him for preparing me for the road ahead.

 

[SPilot]

Don't worry about foreigners coming to fly. It is near impossible to obtain work visas for flight crews, as the INS and department of labor doesn't recognize the profession as in need of more labor, and by the time either of those departments/agencies would, the shortage would be in the past. I've conferred with several immigration lawyers inquiring to the possibilities of working in the US, but since 'professional pilot' falls in under 'skilled worker', and not 'scientist or doctor or athlete or person who significantly will contribute to the us economy, technology' and so on..., it ends up in a quota with years of waiting time, plus a year of processing time, plus six months processing by the department of labor to certify the individual position as 'not possible to be filled by American labor'. Even if offered employment because employers indeed have a shortage, it is not enough to make it easy for foreign labor.

 

[flyf15]

Don't worry about foreigners coming to fly. It is near impossible to obtain work visas for flight crews, as the INS and department of labor doesn't recognize the profession as in need of more labor, and by the time either of those departments/agencies would, the shortage would be in the past. I've conferred with several immigration lawyers inquiring to the possibilities of working in the US, but since 'professional pilot' falls in under 'skilled worker', and not 'scientist or doctor or athlete or person who significantly will contribute to the us economy, technology' and so on..., it ends up in a quota with years of waiting time, plus a year of processing time, plus six months processing by the department of labor to certify the individual position as 'not possible to be filled by American labor'. Even if offered employment because employers indeed have a shortage, it is not enough to make it easy for foreign labor.

I'm not worried about American carriers hiring foreign pilots. I'm worried about foreign carriers being allowed to operate revenue flights within the US. Right now its not allowed, but with the way the government loves to screw the working public, who knows. Foreign ownership rules could change much against our favor very easily and the next thing you know, RyanAir has a US division, staffed with pilots from Europe, killing off our airlines and our jobs.

 

[Goose Egg]

One big incentive is to stay and build time for 135 mins.

I don't know about other guys, but that's why I'll be hanging around a bit longer.

-Goose

 

[dogismycopilot]

What?!?

6000 pilot jobs need to be filled this year. I talked to an Embry riddiculous recruiter and apparently it costs 26k per year for tuition plus flight time plus liiving expenses. Is this accurate? By my math that is over 150k for a 4 year and i guess a commercial or CFI or whatever they end up with. My fo last week said he took home 11k in his first year.

That's over 150% more than I paid!

I remember when a NEW 172 cost $65/hr at riddle. Remember the fixed price program?