GVFlyer
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Flex Global Express?
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Oh, you must mean like the Ultra, 400XP, 800XP, CX, G200, Hawker 4000. Why does a single corporate flight department operate a GLEX or 5000? All they have to do is back the 5000 up with a 450. Of course, the owner will be pretty upset at the lack of cabin space or having to make a fuel stop. LOL.
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GVFlyer
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Good question.
Is it because Bombardier will significantly discount their large cabin aircraft?
The better question is why they keep them when they discover (as Toyota and other former Global operators did) that they can't get a dispatch reliability rate above 97%.
Current Gulfstream G350/G450/G500/G550 dispatch reliability is running at 99.8% or better.
And then there's the fabled Bombardier support...
At it's price point, the G450 competes against and exceeds the performance of the Falcon 900EX and the Challenger 605.
The Gulfstream G500 is priced competitively with the Global 5000 and will fly 300 nm farther than the 5000 at Mach 0.85 and 700 nm farther than the Bombardier at Mach 0.80.
The Global 5000 cabin is 1 foot 5 inches shorter than the G500's and 10 inches wider.
GV
wolfpackpilot
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And a fool shall quickly part with his money...
Because I work for NetJets, and know from the inside how long range international flights work, to you I say.........
"BRING IT" Big Boy!
wolfpackpilot
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Then why are they still being bought? Answer-owners LOVE the range and much LARGER owner cabin than the gulfstream.
The 604 is a $24 MM aircraft where the G-450 is $32MM. Who told you the 604/5 compares to the 900? The 28' cabin length of the 604 is not the same class as the 39' DA-900. Apparently you aren't familiar with competitively priced industry aircraft. The $24MM 604 competes with the $24MM DA2000EX (similar cabin size/volume/price, etc.)
The G450 is a $34MM aircraft which compares with the G5000's $35MM price point. Compare these two. Cabin volume for the 5000 is 2,000 ft3. G-450? 1,500 ft3. To me, that's 33% larger cabin for the same price. You DON'T want to compare the range/speed between the two.
GVFlyer-stay with me here-the GV/550/GLEX are in the same cabin class. The G450/DA-7X/G-450/DA-900/G500 are in the same cabin class. Learn anything yet?
wolfpackpilot
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Yeah GVFlyer...... Havent you learned anything from this 2000 hour wonder kid who figured out how to cut and paste advertised numbers off the websites?:laugh:
Hey Jo-Joe,
When your lame duck P.O.S. is broke out in Africa somewhere, ask the French Canadians what their response time is for getting your (almost as good as a Gulfstream) Global back in the air... Oh, they dont advertise that now do they.
Next time your in PANC getting kerosine, look up and see my contrails, thats me going nonstop NY-Beijing.. But dont be jealous; you get to stretch your legs and get some free popcorn on those tech-stops
I rest my case.
Gulfstream.. The heavy weight champion of the long haul corporate aircraft
GVFlyer
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Reality Check
No and I'm unlikely to as long as you keep misstating facts.
In this post, I have corrected most of the inaccuracies from your post - such as the claim that the G5000 has a "2000 ft3" cabin volume, as opposed to it's actual 1,697 cu. ft. cabin. Were you unaware that the G5000 cabin is 5 ft. 10 inches shorter than the Global XRS which has a 1,900 cu. ft. cabin volume?
The best way to compare aircraft is by determining bang-for-the-buck based on manufacturer's intent, included equipment, price and reliability.
Our current product line is priced as follows (millions):
G350 - $29.50 (which has increased $2.00 in the last 24 mos based on demand)
G450 - $34.17
G500 - $38.75
G550 - $46.67
The product line was point designed in 2002 to directly cover market segments in the following manner.
The G350 which is the shorter range version (3,900 nm) of the G450, and the same type, is aimed at the Falcon 2000EX ($27.20m) and the Challenger 604/605 ($27.00m)
The fully-equiped G450 takes on the Falcon 900EX ($36.15m) which in turn is $3.35 million more than it's less capable sibling - the F900DX.
If you are unfamiliar with the G450 as it appeares that you are from your erroneous statement of cabin volume, here are the major changes as it evolved from the G400/G-IV.
The 13,850-pound-thrust Tay 611-8C turbofans, though rated at the same takeoff thrust as the G400’s Tay 611-8s, provide 6 percent more thrust at 5,000 feet (ISA +15 degrees C) and 2 percent better fuel burn, giving the airplane 250-nm more range than the G400, for 4,350 nm at Mach 0.80. On a 3,000 nautical mile mission, the G450 will burn 1,300 pounds less fuel than the G400. Range at LRC is 4,450 nm. The -8C also incorporates FADEC, a larger-diameter fan, modified high-pressure turbine and new bypass/core mixer. Maintenance intervals have been extended to 6,000 hours for midlife and 12,000 hours for full overhaul.
The GIV’s dispatch reliability rating is 99.8 percent, but Gulfstream still looked at addressing and upgrading those systems that historically required the most service attention. The company took the top 10 high-removal items on the GIV and were able to improve nine of them on the G450.
The more capable and reliable electrical power system of the G550 replaced the G400’s electrics. Two 40-kVA integrated drive generators and a 40-kVA APU generator provide improvements in electrical power capacity, no-break power transfer capability and added redundancy. A new Honeywell 36-150 APU provides improved reliability for engine starting, better performance for cabin temperature control and better high-altitude electrical power capacity. It also runs quieter than the G400’s APU.
Cabin comfort is enhanced by a dual-pack environmental control system based on the G550 air-cycle machines and a three-zone (cockpit plus two cabin zones) digital temperature control. A G550-style passive door seal and dual digital pressurization system give added redundancy and safety. Maximum cabin altitude has been reduced from 6,500 feet to 6,000 feet.
Other systems that the G450 shares with the G550 include the nose landing gear, nosewheel steering, oxygen system and fire-extinguishing system. The G450’s wing and tail are the same as those on the GIV/GIV-SP/G400.
The G450 met it's design range point. No Bombardier product ever has.
The G500 was developed to cover new Large Cabin entrants from Dassault and Bombardier - the $39.20m Falcon 7x and the $36.80m Global 5000.
Cabin volumes for this class of aircraft are as follows. Gulfstream G500 - 1,669 cu. ft., Dassault Falcon 7X - 1,525 cu. ft. and Bombardier G5000 - 1,697 cu. ft.
The G500 has a 226 cu.ft. pressurized fully accessable baggage area. The Falcon's baggage are is 140 cu. ft, while the G5000's is 185 cu. ft.
The Gulfstream G550 is the derivative of the first ultra-long range business jet, the GV and dominates that market.
Aircraft developed to compete with the G550 include the Global XRS ($47.75m), and to some extent - the BBJ ($57.50m), the A319CJ ($55.00m) and the A318 Elite ($45.00m). The US military fly-off for C-37 was between the GV, the Global Express and the BBJ. The Gulfstream won.
Again the facts don't support your assertion. There are just over 100 Globals in service. There are over 400 GV/G500/G550's in service.
Gulfstream has just announced a 7 year $300 million expansion to help meet demand for it's large cabin aircraft. The Savannah factory is hiring a 1,000 new employees, nearly 20 of which will be pilots.
Bombardier has just announced a 1,330 employee lay-off of aviation employees.
Bombardier's CEO, Paul Tellier has quit, as has the president of Bombardier Business Aircraft, Peter Edwards.
By-the-way, how do the Bombardier owners and pilots like the 85% recycled air on the Global (100% fresh on the Gulfstream), or the black and white 8 inch flight displays (Gulfstream 14.1 in Active Matrix full-color LCD), or the 8,000 ft. max cabin altitude (Gulfstream 5,960ft), or the absence of an auto-decent mode or automatic fuel heating system or the 6% less thrust in a 7,000 lb heavier aircraft? How about the un-cooled Thales EVS?
Or how about having to land 425 nm short of the G550 in the Global XRS because the Bombardier just never could make the numbers Montreal promised.
Have they ever fixed the mystery battery drain problem on the Global or are you still disconnecting the batteries for RON's?
Do you know how to do a bleeds-off take-off in your Global?
No, I thought not, even though the performance data in your Flight Manual is predicated on it. The pilots of the Global that we leased for a closed loop handling qualities evaluation and flight test didn't know how to do one either.
In the Gulfstream all you do is press the APU air switch on the ground. That's it. That's all. At 1,500 ft. the same sensor which suppresses the wing anti-ice below 1,500 ft smoothy stages the engine air back on. No bumps - no pilot action required.
No one. Having flown the large cabin Bombardiers, I know them to be under-powered, buffet limited aircraft that don't compare favorably with the Falcons at all.
GV
No and I'm unlikely to as long as you keep misstating facts.
In this post, I have corrected most of the inaccuracies from your post - such as the claim that the G5000 has a "2000 ft3" cabin volume, as opposed to it's actual 1,697 cu. ft. cabin. Were you unaware that the G5000 cabin is 5 ft. 10 inches shorter than the Global XRS which has a 1,900 cu. ft. cabin volume?
The best way to compare aircraft is by determining bang-for-the-buck based on manufacturer's intent, included equipment, price and reliability.
Our current product line is priced as follows (millions):
G350 - $29.50 (which has increased $2.00 in the last 24 mos based on demand)
G450 - $34.17
G500 - $38.75
G550 - $46.67
The product line was point designed in 2002 to directly cover market segments in the following manner.
The G350 which is the shorter range version (3,900 nm) of the G450, and the same type, is aimed at the Falcon 2000EX ($27.20m) and the Challenger 604/605 ($27.00m)
The fully-equiped G450 takes on the Falcon 900EX ($36.15m) which in turn is $3.35 million more than it's less capable sibling - the F900DX.
If you are unfamiliar with the G450 as it appeares that you are from your erroneous statement of cabin volume, here are the major changes as it evolved from the G400/G-IV.
The 13,850-pound-thrust Tay 611-8C turbofans, though rated at the same takeoff thrust as the G400’s Tay 611-8s, provide 6 percent more thrust at 5,000 feet (ISA +15 degrees C) and 2 percent better fuel burn, giving the airplane 250-nm more range than the G400, for 4,350 nm at Mach 0.80. On a 3,000 nautical mile mission, the G450 will burn 1,300 pounds less fuel than the G400. Range at LRC is 4,450 nm. The -8C also incorporates FADEC, a larger-diameter fan, modified high-pressure turbine and new bypass/core mixer. Maintenance intervals have been extended to 6,000 hours for midlife and 12,000 hours for full overhaul.
The GIV’s dispatch reliability rating is 99.8 percent, but Gulfstream still looked at addressing and upgrading those systems that historically required the most service attention. The company took the top 10 high-removal items on the GIV and were able to improve nine of them on the G450.
The more capable and reliable electrical power system of the G550 replaced the G400’s electrics. Two 40-kVA integrated drive generators and a 40-kVA APU generator provide improvements in electrical power capacity, no-break power transfer capability and added redundancy. A new Honeywell 36-150 APU provides improved reliability for engine starting, better performance for cabin temperature control and better high-altitude electrical power capacity. It also runs quieter than the G400’s APU.
Cabin comfort is enhanced by a dual-pack environmental control system based on the G550 air-cycle machines and a three-zone (cockpit plus two cabin zones) digital temperature control. A G550-style passive door seal and dual digital pressurization system give added redundancy and safety. Maximum cabin altitude has been reduced from 6,500 feet to 6,000 feet.
Other systems that the G450 shares with the G550 include the nose landing gear, nosewheel steering, oxygen system and fire-extinguishing system. The G450’s wing and tail are the same as those on the GIV/GIV-SP/G400.
The G450 met it's design range point. No Bombardier product ever has.
The G500 was developed to cover new Large Cabin entrants from Dassault and Bombardier - the $39.20m Falcon 7x and the $36.80m Global 5000.
Cabin volumes for this class of aircraft are as follows. Gulfstream G500 - 1,669 cu. ft., Dassault Falcon 7X - 1,525 cu. ft. and Bombardier G5000 - 1,697 cu. ft.
The G500 has a 226 cu.ft. pressurized fully accessable baggage area. The Falcon's baggage are is 140 cu. ft, while the G5000's is 185 cu. ft.
The Gulfstream G550 is the derivative of the first ultra-long range business jet, the GV and dominates that market.
Aircraft developed to compete with the G550 include the Global XRS ($47.75m), and to some extent - the BBJ ($57.50m), the A319CJ ($55.00m) and the A318 Elite ($45.00m). The US military fly-off for C-37 was between the GV, the Global Express and the BBJ. The Gulfstream won.
Again the facts don't support your assertion. There are just over 100 Globals in service. There are over 400 GV/G500/G550's in service.
Gulfstream has just announced a 7 year $300 million expansion to help meet demand for it's large cabin aircraft. The Savannah factory is hiring a 1,000 new employees, nearly 20 of which will be pilots.
Bombardier has just announced a 1,330 employee lay-off of aviation employees.
Bombardier's CEO, Paul Tellier has quit, as has the president of Bombardier Business Aircraft, Peter Edwards.
By-the-way, how do the Bombardier owners and pilots like the 85% recycled air on the Global (100% fresh on the Gulfstream), or the black and white 8 inch flight displays (Gulfstream 14.1 in Active Matrix full-color LCD), or the 8,000 ft. max cabin altitude (Gulfstream 5,960ft), or the absence of an auto-decent mode or automatic fuel heating system or the 6% less thrust in a 7,000 lb heavier aircraft? How about the un-cooled Thales EVS?
Or how about having to land 425 nm short of the G550 in the Global XRS because the Bombardier just never could make the numbers Montreal promised.
Have they ever fixed the mystery battery drain problem on the Global or are you still disconnecting the batteries for RON's?
Do you know how to do a bleeds-off take-off in your Global?
No, I thought not, even though the performance data in your Flight Manual is predicated on it. The pilots of the Global that we leased for a closed loop handling qualities evaluation and flight test didn't know how to do one either.
In the Gulfstream all you do is press the APU air switch on the ground. That's it. That's all. At 1,500 ft. the same sensor which suppresses the wing anti-ice below 1,500 ft smoothy stages the engine air back on. No bumps - no pilot action required.
jonjuan said:
No one. Having flown the large cabin Bombardiers, I know them to be under-powered, buffet limited aircraft that don't compare favorably with the Falcons at all.
GV
GEXDriver
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- Jul 6, 2002
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- 200
We have both. The Gulfstream has never left me stranded anywhere. I can't say that about the Global.
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