Flaps Up?

[siucavflight]

Maybe you guys could help me with this.
If you are practicing engine failures on take off and you have 10 degrees of flaps down when the engine fails and you bring up the gear should you also bring up the flaps or leave them down because they are helping to provide you with some lift?

 

[U-I pilot]

is this in multiengine or single engine?

 

[HAZ-MAT]

You say it so much that you wake up saying it...
Mixtures props throttles, flaps up, gear up..........

 

[siucavflight]

Multi engine.

So you are saying that in no situation would you leave flaps down 10?

 

[HAZ-MAT]

In my mind that would be the PIC's choice all depending on the situation.. Now if you want to talk about worst case Scenario ...
Engine failure after takeoff to a down draft.... I'd keep current configuration (flaps t/o, and gear down) but i'd identify dead engine and feather it...
Some other please chime in.

 

[FL000]

It depends on the airplane. On the CRJ at ASA we are trained to leave flaps extended (either 8 or 20 degrees) until we reach our acceleration altitude of 1000' AGL (or sometimes higher depending on terrain), and then accelerate past V2 + 15/20.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

FL000, good point about Jets.. I'm speaking from light piston experience, and i am sure with commercial aircraft, and heavys for that matter you would want to keep a configuration until V2 or a specific altitude.. Thanks for the insight.

 

[bigsky]

I agree about saying it so much you hear it in your sleep.. Normally I would reccommend retracting flaps although there are some light twins that climb as well if not better with 10 degrees flaps. Your climb performance in most is so marginal so if you are able to do better with a notch of flaps it is worth considering

 

[tarp]

The flaps question is answered by your "drag demo" - remember that?? In any given piston multi-engine airplane you are introduced to - you should be doing a drag demo to see the relative "hit" at the lowest possible safe altitude. 10 degrees of flaps in a Seminole is negligible with the engine feathered and is about a 50-100fpm hit with a non-feathered (read spinning prop drag). In the Seneca, 10 degrees of flaps was a hit - in fact anything that made that pig have more drag was a hit on performance. Apache with 150's - pig, Aztec with 260's - indestructable, E-55 Baron - drag hurts -- at least in the models I've flown.

Note that in the Seminole, the flaps plus non-feathered prop create an additive drag factor - so you lose one on takeoff - is the prop feathered yet? No, I guess you better get those flaps up. In other planes, a small amount of flaps may not hurt performance but you won't know until you do a drag demo.

And yes I wake up in the morning yelling "Mixtures, props, throttles, gear up, flaps up, identify....". Too many multi students, too many chances to cheat death.

 

[avbug]

It all depends on the airplane and the circumstances. In most light airplanes, 10 degrees of flap will help, not hurt. What are you trying to do with the airplane? So often, students are told to plan on achieving "best glide" speed in order to maximize distance. However, in many cases, this isn't what's needed.

Light airplane pilots are constantly told to be looking for an emergency landing site. It's a valueable attribute to hold. Accordingly, one should be close by. It may not be a runway, but a field is as good as a road, which is as good as a taxiway, etc. This in mind, very often the landing site is right beneath you. Gliding the farthest distance isn't really what's needed in such a case.

A more useful speed, but one seldom addressed or taught, is minimum sink speed. This is typically less than best glide speed, and is a speed at which the minimum descent rate will be achieved. The airplane won't glide as far, but it will take longer to get down. The descent provile will be steeper, though it will take longer. As a very basic rule of thumb, best glide is typically close or approximate to best rate of climb. Minimum sink is typically close, or approximate to Vx, or best angle airsped.

In many airplanes, a low flap setting can enhance controllability, and decrease stall speed. Not all, but many. Retracting flaps may increase stall speed. A pilot is typically directed not to remove all flaps, but to retract them to a spedific minimum setting before moving on to gear and other checklist specific items.

Typically with flaps set for takeoff, they should be left alone during an engine-failure. If flaps for some reason have been placed to a greater position than takeoff, they should typically be retracted to the takeoff position.

The type of flap makes a difference. Split flaps do very little good no matter what the setting when contrasted with the need for drag reduction. Retract them. With other flap systems, it may be benificial to leave partial flap down. You may be in a situation wherein failure of other systems or loss with powerplant loss may mean that you can't get gear and flaps later. In such a case, view your situation as a gift, keep what flaps you have applied.

Did you really cheat death? He must be upset.

 

[bart]

One might consider consulting the POH for the particular airplane. There are some turboprops where retracting the flaps and gear upon losing an engine is a sure fired way to get killed. If there is not a recommended engine out procedure in the POH, then the drag demo will answer your question. Just make sure you fly the plane at VYse while doing the demo.

 

[uwochris]

I'd leave them down until a safe altitude is reached (500-1000 agl). The gear creates more drag than does 10 degrees of flaps, so your primary drag clean up is the gear.

Bring power to full, pitch up, flaps to the take off position (if extended more than the take off position) gear up, climb at Vy, flaps up when at a safe altitude.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

I'd leave them down until a safe altitude is reached (500-1000 agl). The gear creates more drag than does 10 degrees of flaps, so your primary drag clean up is the gear.

Just be careful on which plane you fly. I remember on the MU-2 Marquette you leave the gear down till 1000ft AGL I beleive because of the gear cylcle time and the amount of drag it creates during the cycle is incredible. Also on that aircraft during an engine failure, you trim for wings level for an engine failure. The old saying raise the dead engine will kill you in a MU-2. So I guess what I am saying is consult you POH for guidlines on engine out proceedures.

 

[El Bucho]

In the Mu2 you definitely leave the flaps down until a safe altitude and airspeed are reached. If you suck 'em up right after TO with an engine failure and you are going to slow you will end up at that bottom of a smoking hole. Two schools of thought on the gear, leave them down until 1000 or Positive rate gear up. Also some difference between the long and short bodies. Anyway, the point is that it depends on what you are flying. If you fly the airplane the way it was designed to be flown instead of using generic techniques you will be a lot safer.
EB

 

[Ace757]

In a seminole we were taught to always bring up flaps first and then the gear always. Flaps greatly increase VMC, therefore it would be dangerous to leave them in.

 

[newmei]

"flaps increase vmc"

That is incorrect, flaps provide a stabilizing effect and actually lower VMC just like the gear being down does. The reason for flap retraction first is because they have the most drag, actually more than the gear. Next time your up do drag demo and you'll see that the flaps have far more drag, thats the reason for that procedure.

 

[jdog78]

I think in a training environment, it's best to go by what the book says while being aware of real world applicability. While the books tell us to bring flaps and gear up, a particular set of circumstances, atmospheric conditions, etc., may require a different approach. I think that's what makes a good pilot...having the book knowledge and being able to augment that with real-world experience. Like the other guys are saying, you'll find out what works best by doing the Vyse demo.

-j

 

[bobbysamd]

"Mixtures forward, props forward, throttles forward, FLAPS UP, gear up . . . "

I would still follow the time-honored multi engine failure chant consistent with the recommended procedure for your airplane.

The typical multi trainers, such as Seminoles, are marginal performers on one engine. You want to eliminate as much drag as possible, not to mention the increased Vmc aspect.

 

[Skaz]

siucavflight I agree with some 'o the guys , depends which a/c you are flying.
In a F406 one of two no-go items is no flaps, you have to set T/O flap 10 degrees.But the autofeather is the second no-go. Itl feather the dead engine's prop while you sweat and swear your way up to 1000' agl. Emergency after V1 would be....continue T/O, fly V2 to 500', pos ROC gear up, climb 1000' and while youre doing that, Identify ,Verify,Confirm,Feather,

In the Citation 1 , it would be:before V1, stop. After V1, continue T/O, fly V2 to 500', Pos ROC, gear up, flap up.(if used)climb 1000'.

C402, on rwy, stop. After T/O, continue, accelerate blue line & Pos ROC, gear up, climb rwy hdg 500', secure engine & climb 1000' for further. But then C402 = no flaps for T/O, so too the C310, C401.

Full flap creates more drag than gear down. 10 degrees flap, hmmmm ... I would leave it down till at least 500' and you can spend a little bit more time securing the a/c properly. Fiddling with the flaps close to the ground, with an engine out, pulse racing, wind unknown, passengers freaking out....sound like a recipe for disaster.

IMHO, in a single, piston or turbine, or light multi, even bigger a/c, depends on situation, if the the emergency in "after T/O with Rwy remaining...." then I'd go : close the pwr, gear down, full flap, land ahead.

aahhh...just read the whole thread, Incl Uncle Avbug's and I have to add something....sorry

Split flaps create more drag than lift. Methinks there called 'drag flaps' . Cessna twins like the C310, C401, C402 etc use them. They are less complex to manufacture and allows you to have a thinner wing for better high speed performance (Avbug, jump in anytime if I'm talking bulldust).
Fowler flaps like on the F406 or hmmm....PA31, they create more lift than drag, but mechanism might be bulkier and weigh more.
One reason I can think of split flap a/c having a nil-flap T/O setting, and the F406 has 10deg.

If you have an engine failure on a go-around, then yeah, you would go : Go-around power, flaps up (to T/O setting), Pos ROC gear up....


Avbug I PM'ed you ? would appreciate a chat if ye don' mind

 

[wickedpilot]

FL000
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