Flaps 10 during inital emergency descent?

[rumorhasit]

When performing a simulated glide approach Abeam the numbers for engine failure simulation go to best glide then flap 10 or leave them down?

 

[brokeflyer]

ill tryt o get in here before avbug posts the flight manual from every aircraft ever created.


You do what the emergency checklist of the plane you are flying tells you to do.

Im guessing that you mean to bring them up from 20 to 10?

 

[rumorhasit]

I am training in a 172, while in the practice area I pull the throttle back to idle to simulate engine failure. The student goes throught the emergency flow and checklist decents to 1000 ft agl and then recover. During the pattern work I pull the engine and perform a simulated glide approach down to the runway. My question is should the student establish best glide and flaps to 10 to increase lift or make the approach clean until airport is made?

Thanks in advance....

 

[rumorhasit]

I am training in a 172, while in the practice area I pull the throttle back to idle to simulate engine failure. The student goes throught the emergency flow and checklist decents to 1000 ft agl and then recover. During the pattern work I pull the engine and perform a simulated glide approach down to the runway. My question is should the student establish best glide and flaps to 10 to increase lift or make the approach clean until airport is made?

Thanks in advance....

 

[CA1900]

As broke said, you do what your specific airplane's manual directs.

In general, in a light single, I'd keep it clean until I'm absolutely sure I have the field made. Flaps don't "increase lift" -- they allow a given amount of lift to be developed at a lower airspeed, but they add drag in the process. Until you're sure you've made the field, adding more drag is generally a bad idea.

 

[avbug]

Where in the emergency procedures in the Cessna 172 Pilot Operating Handbook are you intructed to apply Flaps 10, in a power off glide following an engine failure?

Don't invent procedures. Follow those that are provided for you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Where in the emergency procedures in the Cessna 172 Pilot Operating Handbook are you intructed to apply Flaps 10, in a power off glide following an engine failure?

Don't invent procedures. Follow those that are provided for you.

Problem is that there is nothing in either the emergency or the normal procedures for a 172 that tell you =when= to start applying flaps for landing, nor, if it really comes down to it, whether to apply flaps at all.

CA1900 has given the most common advice about =technique= and the reason for it: If you are going to use flaps for that landing, don't start until you are in a position where the increased drag is not going to end up having you come up short. My own general guideline is when the visual picture little higher than normal for an approach and landing at idle power. The little higher is to (a) add a fudge factor for errors and (b) to recognize that in the simulation, you still have some power.

Developing that sight picture is a lot of what this is all about.

 

[brokeflyer]

yes like I said do what the AFM says....if it dont say anything about flaps, then get rid of them.

ALso, call the designated examiner that you normal use and seak to him/her about this as well. They explain to you exactly where to find these procedures and tell how they want to see it done.

When I was an examiner, I had a very good relationship with local cfi's and we discussed stuff like this all the time.

 

[AC560]

I tend to stress the forward slip in engine out scenario's. You can get most airplanes down pretty fast without an engine, it is real hard to get them back up without one though.

 

[pilotyip]

C-172

Since you did not mention what airplane it is, I will assume it is a typical SEL. I teach in a C-172 go to flaps 10 abeam intended point of touchdown. In the C-172 I don’t think there is any SOP for power off forced landings, other than flaps as necessary. From my observation over shoot is more often a problem than undershoot. Stay in close. If think you are high, more flaps, if you put in too much, retract flaps. I purposely talk them into too much flaps early, and then demonstrate the technique to get rid of drag. After practicing this procedure a few times most students can put into a 2000' opening power off from the 180. I don't care what he book says, I want them to walk away from any forced landing. I have never had student fail for forced landings.

 

[avbug]

Problem is that there is nothing in either the emergency or the normal procedures for a 172 that tell you =when= to start applying flaps for landing, nor, if it really comes down to it, whether to apply flaps at all.

Precisely. That was my point. Don't reinvent the wheel. If Cessna had wanted the emergency procedure to point to extending flap, Cessna would have put it in the procedure. They did not.

Since you did not mention what airplane it is, I will assume it is a typical SEL.

Actually, the poster repeatedly said it's a 172.

 

[pilotyip]

Where?

Actually, the poster repeatedly said it's a 172.

Other people said C-172, but the first post does not mention the airplane does it?
"When performing a simulated glide approach Abeam the numbers for engine failure simulation go to best glide then flap 10 or leave them down?"

 

[avbug]

Other people said C-172, but the first post does not mention the airplane does it?

No, the original poster states what airplane it is to which he refers, in posts #3 and #4. These were made some 11 hours prior to your posting...giving even you (limited to a Masters degree) ample time to actually read the thread before posting.

 

[Lynxman]

Fight Fight Fight!!!

 

[pilotyip]

Now back

Fight Fight Fight!!!

now back to your regularily scheduled program.

 

[OurMoney1]

What the hell is an initial emergency descent?

Lose the slang and we may all communicate better.

 

[pilotyip]

What the hell is an initial emergency descent?

Lose the slang and we may all communicate better.

That is the part just before the intermediate emergency descent that is followed by the final emergency descent.

 

[avbug]

I'm not sure there is proper terminology to define the parts of an emergency descent. Certainly if one is to specify the early part of the emergency descent, to describe it as the "initial emergency descent" is approprite communication. How one conducts the initial part of the descent is typically different than the way one conducts the majority of the descent. Depending on the aircraft and the operation, considerable activity may mark the initial part of the descent procedure, and can vary from simply establishing a glide speed to configuring an airplane, dealing with autopilots, making communication, maneuvering, donning oxygen, etc. I don't believe the original poster is out of line by specifying the initial emergency descent.

Where we can clarify the term is exactly what is the nature of the emergency; are we talking a true emergency descent in which an emergency precipitates the need to rapidly move to a lower altitude, or we talking an emergency in which we have no choice but to descent (such as an engine failure in the aforementioned Cessna 172)? Configuring the airplane with flaps is potentially appropriate in one situation, but not the other, and where and when one does configure is worthy of consideration.

If we're talking best glide, then most instructors know only one concept to get down, and teach one speed. In fact there are two which should be known, one of which is usually not published, but very pertinent to the descent. Best glide is often thought of strictly in terms of what speed gets us the farthest distance traveled...which is great if one has somewhere to go. However, one may be over the intended landing site, and going the farthest isn't necessarily a priority.

Minimum descent speed, however, is a priority, especially if one is make a power off descent at night or to a location where the specific ground elevation and obstacles can't readily be determined. Instructors often teach that any speed greater or lesser than "best glide speed" mean a higher rate of descent and a shorter distance travelled. This is partly true, because the gliding range is reduced when not at the proper airspeed/angle of attack for "best glide," but it's also untrue in that one can certainly achieve a lower rate of descent. This occurs at minimum sink airspeed.

With either best glide or minimum sink, aircraft configuration is just as important a consideration as airspeed. If one isn't on the proper speed, then one won't achieve the desired performance. Likewise, if one isn't configured properly, one won't achieve the proper performance. What does this imply? If one isn't on speed or properly configured, one wont' glide as far, or won't get the minimum descent rate that's possible for that aircraft. Applying flap early, for example, alters the performance expectation both in respect to gliding distance and glide time.

For the original poster, you'll find that in most light aircraft such as the 172, the best glide speed very closely approximates the sea level best rate of climb speed (Vy). The Minimum sink speed, not published in most cases, will closely approximate the sea level best angle of climb speed (Vx). (Vx and Vy converge as density altitude increases in a normally aspirated airplane as a function of engine power, but the sea level numbers are close enough to give you a good approximation to see the relationship between the two).

Given this, one needs to know what's intended. Are you attempting to reach a distant parking lot or field with an extended glide, or are you setting up for a landing on a meadow directly below and well within the gliding range of the aircraft? If you've just lost your engine and you've been maintaining good airmanship practices of always keeping a suitable forced landing site beneath you, then you may very well be setting up for something under you. This is usually best. With this in mind, you may not want to glide as far as you can...you may want to make your descent rate as low as possible to give yourself adequate time to run checklists, attempt engine re-starts, communicate your position or needs to ATC or other aircraft, or handle whatever needs to be accomplished before touchdown. Now you're looking at minimum sink speed offering you the best option.

Previously we alluded to the concept that one shouldn't invent procedures, and this is true. One should not. We're talking about a technique, however, and not a procedure You can see it for yourself, however, with a little experimentation. Go fly on a calm morning, and climb up to 4,000' or so. Reduce power to a predetermined setting (somewhere above idle, you can use 1500 RPM for example, as a arbitrary number), and establish a glide at 80 knots. Allow a thousand feet of descent, and make a note of the average descent rate. Climb back up to 4,000', then do it at 75 knots. Then again at 70, then at 65, then 60. Note your descent rate, and where the trend decreases, then increases again, and you're narrowing in on your minimum sink speed. You can then bracket or repeat the exercise, trimming the airplane to fly in 2 or 3 knot increments to see where exactly your airplane finds it's minimum sink.

As you've raised the question of flaps, repeat the same exercise using flap, and note the changes: see where you reach a point of the vertical speed decreasing, then increasing again (say, for example, as you approach a 60 knot glide you see your minimum sink, but at lower speeds it increases again...). Now compare what you've found, both the airspeed itself and the descent rate achieved at that gliding airspeed, with your numbers from power off descents. This will tell you what you want to know about configuring early, or in the initial parts of the descent, with flaps.

Now, if you're talking about an emergency descent with the intent of reaching the ground in the shortest time possible, or getting to a lower altitude in the shortest time possible, it's an entirely different matter. Depending on the aircraft in question, you may be better off configuring with flaps (and gear, spoilers, etc, as applicable to a particular airplane), and different techniques apply.

 

[rumorhasit]

Cheese and beans guys, allow me to retort. okay for safety reasons I allow the students to descend to 1000agl for safety reasons. We recover and talk about the descent and climb back up to normal op alt. Then during our landings I pull the power to simulate engine failure using glide approach. My orginal question was during the inital pwr reduction is it better to add 10 degree of flaps after best glide or dump flaps on very short final? And yes as my second post indicated it is a cessna 172. Thanks

 

[avbug]

Why would you add flaps in the glide, if you're attempting to teach an emergency glide?

Again, are you trying to teach a realistic setup to an emergency approach to a landing?

The traditional flight instructor wave at teaching emergency engine-outs isn't sufficient, and instills a false education and a false sense of security.

The instructor repeatedly pulls the power to idle in the perfect position to land the airplane, abeam a hard surface runway, and the student subsequently lands the airplane.

In the real world, this doesn't happen, of course, and the student is left to experience his first forced landing alone, for the first time...because the instructor has never given him realistic training. Most often, the instructor wouldn't know what a real engine out feels like; he or she has never been shown, has never experienced one, and doesn't understand anything beyond what he or she was taught. Seldom is any forethought given to making the exercise realistic; just passing on what was given...to no avail.

What are you trying to teach the student in this scenario? Are you simply trying to show a glide? A glide to a spot landing? A glide to a spot landing under adverse circumstances? A glide to a spot landing under adverse circumstances, off field? Are you attemptin to reinforce a single-speed glide to a touchdown? If you're teaching best distance glide, then do you train at varying angles and distances and geographical locations from the runway to let the student see how he's able to work that glide? Do you do it over farm fields and roads, to teach the student how to reach a chosen landing site and set up to land there?

A good rule of thumb is never set up for emergency landing practice unless you're fully committed to making the landing with what you've got. If you've got a dead battery and a dead engine, you may not be able to move those flaps once they're down. Do you want to commit to dirtying up the airplane early in the glide, knowing that you're committed? Or do you want to wait until you're closer to the ground. You can always slip...but you can't get rid of the extra drag and performance loss created by the flaps.

By the same token, don't pull the power during emergency training without being fully prepared to execute the landing, too. Dont' assume you can put it back in, and don't let the student get in the habit of doing it either.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Precisely. That was my point. Don't reinvent the wheel. If Cessna had wanted the emergency procedure to point to extending flap, Cessna would have put it in the procedure. They did not.

That's silly. The landing without engine power checklist says to use flaps as required, together with a recommendation for 30°.

It just doesn't say when, and the PIM doesnt have a "Somewhere In Between Loss of Power and Landing With No Power" checklist.

So I'm guessing it's sometime between the loss of power and before the touchdown. Doing it in a way that it maintains the stability of the approach and landing is better than dumping in all 30° 10' above the ground. OTOH, adding the drag of flaps while you are still optimizing your glide is not the place to do it, but I don't think the OP or anyone else was suggesting it was.

CA1900's advice is still pretty solid.

 

[TheInsider]

When performing a simulated glide approach Abeam the numbers for engine failure simulation go to best glide then flap 10 or leave them down?

Whatever config. you would normally have at that point with the engine running (not simulated anything).

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Flaps have been well addressed already. Use as needed. Too many variables (such as distance from desired landing point, winds, etc.) to teach a spring-loaded method such as 10 degrees all the time. Flaps increase drag. The manipulation of flaps should take place once you've determined that you can make your target. This should take place fairly close or directly over your landing area. To use 10 degrees while gliding towards a suitable field or runway will do nothing to aid your glide.

I'll add a couple of things not yet mentioned. This may not apply to the 172, but when you begin performing glides in a constant speed aircraft, you'll want to teach the student to keep the throttle forward and the prop back (high pitch). This will help increase the glide distance.

Also, when using the best glide speed, it may be necessary to increase this speed with a strong headwind. Inversely, you'll need to decrease your best glide speed when faced with a strong tailwind. This will help you extend your glide.

 

[ultrarunner]

Best glide speed is CLEAN in a 172, right? If you put flaps down, it's not best-glide speed anymore, or am I missing something?

 

[avbug]

but when you begin performing glides in a constant speed aircraft, you'll want to teach the student to keep the throttle forward and the prop back (high pitch).

That depends on the aircraft and the propeller system in use. It's not true, in many cases, because retarding the prop control will have no effect. Again, visit the procedures for your specific aircraft.

If you put flaps down, it's not best-glide speed anymore, or am I missing something?

Nope. You're not missing anything.

Whatever config. you would normally have at that point with the engine running (not simulated anything).

Not necessarily true. Again, it depends what you're attempting to do with the aircraft. If your engine has just failed, the landscape has changed, somewhat.

So I'm guessing it's sometime between the loss of power and before the touchdown. Doing it in a way that it maintains the stability of the approach and landing is better than dumping in all 30° 10' above the ground. OTOH, adding the drag of flaps while you are still optimizing your glide is not the place to do it, but I don't think the OP or anyone else was suggesting it was.

Just prior to impact may be precisely the place to add flaps, and may be quite appropriate to the situation.

That's silly. The landing without engine power checklist says to use flaps as required, together with a recommendation for 30°.

It just doesn't say when, and the PIM doesnt have a "Somewhere In Between Loss of Power and Landing With No Power" checklist.

No, it's not silly, and that's why I specifically pointed to technique, as opposed to procedure. There's a difference.

 

[pilotyip]

Nope

Best glide speed is CLEAN in a 172, right? If you put flaps down, it's not best-glide speed anymore, or am I missing something?

When you put down any flaps, you are no longer concerned about best glide. You are concerned about shedding potential energy (represented by airplane speed and altitude) by converting it into kinetic energy (represented by airplane increased drag and altitude loss). This is all done so that you arrive over your point of intended landing with close to zero energy available.

 

[labbats]

The most important thing in teaching simulated engine outs is the element of surprise (I usually did it during a cross country when they were doing some kind of high-task requirement) and instilling in them that there will be a totally different glide if the engine does indeed stop. The prop spinning at idle will descend completely different than if it stops altogether and becomes a big speed brake.

Make your student shocked that the engine failed and force them to find a best choice for a forced landing. Make them take it as low as you feel comfortable and make them see the land come up at them and the flaws in any divert point up close. You may save their life someday.

 

[bestfwdspd]

Flaps, best glide and glide streaching

To clarify: Best glide speed results in the greatest distance traveled for the altitude lost in a no wind condition. So a C172 with say a 70KIAS best glide speed, gliding into a 70 knot headwind without any speed additive would decend vertically. To penatrate the wind you would typically estimate the wind being penetrated(usually 5-20 knots)and add half that amount to best glide speed to have a target "speed to fly". Flaps, since they steepen the decent, would be added as the need to steepen the profile presents. Conversely if there is a need to get to the landing site, play off the energy in a clean configuration and once in ground effect add the flaps in increments from 0 to full. In the C-172 the flaps will generally add perhaps 1000 feet of horizontal travel prior to touchdown and could jump a fence, stream, rock or a cow, etc.

 

[rumorhasit]

The most important thing in teaching simulated engine outs is the element of surprise (I usually did it during a cross country when they were doing some kind of high-task requirement) and instilling in them that there will be a totally different glide if the engine does indeed stop. The prop spinning at idle will descend completely different than if it stops altogether and becomes a big speed brake.

Make your student shocked that the engine failed and force them to find a best choice for a forced landing. Make them take it as low as you feel comfortable and make them see the land come up at them and the flaws in any divert point up close. You may save their life someday.

Good point, I even sim engine failure during slow flight.