(FL) State Cannot Prosecute Drunk Pilots

[LA Confidential]

Judge: State Cannot Prosecute Pilots Accused Of Drunkenness (FL)
local6 ^



Judge: State Cannot Prosecute Pilots Accused Of Drunkenness

POSTED: 1:28 p.m. EDT August 5, 2003 UPDATED: 1:31 p.m. EDT August 5, 2003

MIAMI -- The state cannot prosecute two America West pilots who were fired after taking the controls of their jet after a night of heavy drinking, a federal judge ruled Tuesday.

State prosecutors must drop charges of drunken operation of a jet against pilot Thomas Cloyd, 45, and co-pilot Christopher Hughes, 42, and cannot take any other action based on their arrests in July 2001, U.S. District Judge Patricia Seitz said.

The decision may mean no criminal prosecution because the pilots' blood-alcohol results were above the state drunkenness standard of 0.08 but below the federal standard of 0.10.

Attorney James Rubin said he told his client Hughes the news and "of course he was happy." Cloyd's attorney was out of the office and not available for comment.

Assistant Attorney General Richard Polin, who argued for the state, said his office had not decided whether to appeal.

The pilots were at the controls when their Airbus carrying 124 passengers was pushed away from the gate last July. Security guards reported the men smelled of alcohol, and the plane was brought back to the gate.

 

[siucavflight]

But at least they are still out of a job.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

well, they're still up for the federal charges, eventhough none of them blew more than .10... FARs clearly state .04 is the max, so that's where the feds will probably get 'em
I am not rooting for them, nor against them, but sometimes people really need to make solid decisions

 

[DarnNearaJet]

The Feds have already "got them:" Their licenses are revoked. I don't know of any criminal penalties for flying while intoxicated.

 

[Tailwind]

Avatar

Hey, LA Confidential

Your Avatar is hilarious! I remember long ago, in a dorm room, in a galaxy far far away, 3am, channel surfing and finding.....what's the name of that movie? "They Live" or something?

I thought I was the only person in the world who would recognize that movie now.


OBEY!!!

Tailwind

P.S. Oh yeah, drunk pilots bad.

 

[A Squared]

The Feds have already "got them:" Their licenses are revoked. I don't know of any criminal penalties for flying while intoxicated.

I think that there is. I don't know exactly how it works, or whose jurisdiction is, but I seem to recall that Lyle Prouse, the Northwest Captain who flew the 727 while intoxicated, spent time in a federal penitentiary.

 

[Dieterly]

The complete Lyle Prouse story...

 

[A Squared]

Thanks Dieterly,

from the avweb article:

"the crew was arrested and charged as the first violators of a 1986 federal law which criminalized operating a common carrier under the influence of drugs or alcohol."

 

[~~~^~~~]

Hope that we all learn a lesson from this. If you are out with a crew, or friends, and drink a little too much, or slip past the 12 hour rule (as it is in most 121 ops specs) then you are physiologically not able to operate the flight. By definition, you are sick. Call crew scheduling.

It is a lot easier to sit in the Chief Pilot's office an explain an unexplained absense than it is to explain flying while suspected of intoxication.

Truth is, studies have documented that fatigue is much more dangerous than mild intoxication. But, the reality is that we pilot must deal with public perceptions of our jobs - so don't even allow yourself to shade the line when it comes to alcohol and flying - it is not worth it.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>Truth is, studies have documented that fatigue is much more dangerous than mild intoxication.

I'd be interested in seeing more information from those studies. That is something I've wondered about before. I'd be willing to bet that your average pilot could fly a sim much better after one beer and being well rested, than at the end of whatever his maximum duty/flight time is. I'd be really surprised if you're more messed up after one beer than after a long day of flying with inadequate rest.

Now, just a disclaimer: I'm certainly not defending drinking and flying. That *should* be obvious, but last time a similar subject came up someone accused me of being an alcoholic, so I'll throw in that preemptive disclaimer to deflect such hysterical responses.

The point is priorities, and the appearence of safety rather then actual safety. The regulations aimed at alcohol have been getting progressively stricter and mandatory random alcohol testing has been instituted. The thing is, people aren't wrecking airplanes and killing people because they have been drinking, they *are* wrecking airplanes and killing people because of fatuige though, and the FAA isn't doing a thing about it. Sure they make some noise, but really, when was the last time the FAA reduced a duty or flight time limitation?

 

[Simon Says]

Interesting corilation.

Fatigue and mild intoxication

 

[A Squared]

Interesting corilation.
Fatigue and mild intoxication

Yeah, it is. Think about it, fatuige: Impairs you decision making process, impairs your cognitive abilities, impairs your motor skills, impairs your reaction time (I think)....starting to sound like being drunk, isn't it? I think that the FAA would really like the issue to go away. I don't think thay want any comparative studys..... Just think if a study with 100 pilots flying simulators showed that your average airline pilot is more impaired in his 8th hour after a reduced rest than if he slammed 2 kamikazis before pushback. That would be kinda awkward and inconvenient for the faa wouldn't it?

 

[Snoopy58]

Several years ago in Aerospace Phisiology Refresher Training (aka the altitude chamber), I heard a stat equating X hours awake to a Y BAC. I don't remember the numbers, but I think it was in the range of 17 hours (that's awake, not duty time) was about .10 or .08 or something thereabouts.

FWIW.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Why isn't more pressure applied to fatigue issues?

The Air Transport Association.

Another example of how management doesn't always have safety as a top priority.

 

[Flightjock30]

If Lyle Prouse got rehired back at Northwest Airlines after flying while impaired (hungover still means you are impaired) then why can't aspiring airline pilot with a DUI on their record fly for an airline? My friend has a DUI and has given up on flying as a career because he claims he has no chance of getting hired anywhere. Is this true? I dont have an answer for him.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Flightjock - As with so many jobs, it depends on who you know. Capt. Prouse not only got a job back, he retained his seniority and Capt. status. I suspect that Capt. Prouse is (1) a good guy (2) an average, or better, pilot and (3) has kissed the Blarney Stone. What bothers me the most about his situation is that it was no "accident." He was aware of his impairment and the imparment of his crew, yet decided to fly anyway. His action was a decision to break the rules when he knew better.

A2 and Simon - the most recent study I have read was by Dr. William Dement of Stanford University. His study was quoted extensively in Air Line Pilot magazine's March 2003 publication. To quote, "fatigue has a lot in common with hypoxia and and the effects of alcohol in that a person is generally not aware of its onset. People commonly underestimate the effect alcohol is having on them when they have had a few drinks. Similarly, in NASA's tests, in which pilots rated the effect of fatigue on their performance, they consistently underate it."

Interestingly, the military hands out "go pills" and "no go pills" to pilots. These pills are amphetamines and tranquilizers and that would be considered disqualifying "drug use" for us civillian pilots.

Darn near a jet - ALPA has done a lot with fatigue issues - (including promotion of Dr. Phil's career - did you know ALPA was one of his first clients as an "expert witness?") Our employers, or rather crew schedulers, could simply care less how fatigued the crews are. Their job is to staff an airplane going from point A to point B, period. Our airline allows pilots to be worked a sixteen hour duty day, followed by nine hours off duty (to get home, shower and sleep) in preparation for another 16 hour day. This can go on for 6 days straight. It rarely happens, but when it does, the situation invariably involves broke airplanes, junior crews and bad weather. A terrible combination to by flying around exhausted. If it were not for the "Whitlow Letter" and the FAA's stand on a 16 hour duty day I have no doubt the airline would run crews past 20 hours of duty.

Again, just like the drinking issue - call in sick when you are physiologically not safe to fly.

 

[Flightjock30]

My question was not how drinking can affect your flying career, but more along the lines of how far can a pilot with a DUI on his record when he was 19 (25 now) go commercially if he wants to fly for a 121 company. Will a regional hire him? What about a major like Delta? Just curious. Corey

 

[~~~^~~~]

Delta's hiring?

 

[surfnole]

Why isn't more pressure applied to fatigue issues?

I imagine its like any other business, lobbies and business interests prevent it. Its scary to me that doctors in residency can work a 36 hour shift. If fatigue can affect a pilot's ability, how about a surgeons?

 

[FN FAL]

I don't know of any criminal penalties for flying while intoxicated.

Pilots' Smiles Turn To Tears Following Verdicts

MIAMI -- A Miami jury convicted two fired America West pilots Wednesday of operating an aircraft while drunk.

Thomas Cloyd and co-pilot Christopher Hughes bowed their heads when the verdicts were read after a two-week trial and deliberations over parts of two days. Hughes wept openly in the courtroom as his wife and supporters hugged him.

Cloyd and Hughes face up to five years in state prison at sentencing.

The men were arrested July 1, 2002, as their jet bound for Phoenix was being pushed back from its gate at Miami International Airport.

Police ordered the plane to turn back and arrested the pilots after security screeners reported having smelled a strong odor of alcohol on Hughes, and Cloyd got in an argument over his attempts to bring aboard a cup of coffee.

The pilots split 14 beers at a Coconut Grove bar the night before the flight, ending their revelry about 4:40 a.m. -- roughly six hours before their flight was to depart. Hours later, they registered blood-alcohol levels above Florida 0.08 legal limit.

Cloyd and Hughes, who maintained that they were not operating the aircraft because it was being directed by a tow truck, were fired by America West after their arrests and lost their commercial pilot's licenses.